How valid were the criticisms that the 1984 Old Dalby nuclear flask test was too staged?

[MidlandRed]

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

While John Selwyn Gummer's PR stunt was amateurish, I seem to remember that the BSE risk to humans was vastly over-stated.  There were claims by some researchers - perhaps hoping to gain research funding? - that within a decade, the transfer to humans would see hundreds of thousands infected with human variant CJD.  I think the actual number of confirmed cases was much nearer six (i.e. counted on your own fingers, with some left over) than six figures.

 

Sorry, OT.

178 deaths in the U.K. (see attached Wiki article)(apologies off topic but posted to correct info). 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_BSE_outbreak

Edited March 4, 2023 by MidlandRed

[Mike Bellamy]

On 03/03/2023 at 13:26, Mark Saunders said:

It was the time that many councillors were declaring nuclear free zones 

 

Although it was before we moved to this area, I'm led to believe that that road signs said "Welcome to Derbyshire, a Nuclear Free Zone" until it was pointed out to the Council that one of the Rolls Royce factories in Derby produced the nuclear reactors that went into every nuclear powered submarine. The signs were then replaced by ones saying "Derbyshire supports Nuclear Free Zones".

.

[Reorte]

3 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

Although it was before we moved to this area, I'm led to believe that that road signs said "Welcome to Derbyshire, a Nuclear Free Zone" until it was pointed out to the Council that one of the Rolls Royce factories in Derby produced the nuclear reactors that went into every nuclear powered submarine. The signs were then replaced by ones saying "Derbyshire supports Nuclear Free Zones".

.

I suppose technically it was correct if the reactors weren't fuelled until they left Derbyshire.

[The Stationmaster]

On 03/03/2023 at 13:26, Mark Saunders said:

It was the time that many councillors were declaring nuclear free zones and getting themselves in a tizzy about spent fuel flasks but not saying anything about HCN , Chlorine, Ammonia and other dangerous goods.

Or use of nuclear isotopes in medicine.  ir's quite a fascinating experience to be given an injection from a hypodermic syringe which is encased in a hefty hunk of lead, but great fun subsequently watching the screen sowing the isotope making its way through your blood stream as it was just like a really good screen saver.  I was told that the stuff had a half life measured in hours (in single figures).

 

On 03/03/2023 at 14:07, MidlandRed said:

I agree - however the decision to permit cruise missiles at those US bases was a current matter at that time, in the public eye (as was the transportation of nuclear waste, and the import of nuclear waste - the strap line at the time was U.K. was the dirty man of Europe, nuclear dust bin etc etc). I guess the irony is the bases concerned were all closed down within a decade or two!! 

The amusing thing about that was that they never got near the place where the warheads, and most of the reserve stock of missiles, were stored or even knew about them being deployed to various firing sites (the best place to find out about that was driving along the M4 at the right moment).

 

On 03/03/2023 at 15:18, Simon Lee said:

Indeed and the lack of understanding also spread to other organisations.

 

We had an exercises at Dover involving Kent Fire and Rescue, as there was a high number of retained fire crews in the area.

 

One involved Anti Knock Compound UN1649. At the end of the evening, the Octel rep handed out stickers that wiped out 65% of the East Kent retained force, such was the overlooked/ignored potency of the substance. 

 

We never once saw any protests about or any other of the "nasties" we carried.

I think the Fire service must have had a thing about UN 1649.  We arranged a big exercise at Yeovil Jcn for the Somerset Fire Brigade and the Chief Fire Officer of Somerset planned that the 'damaged wagon' involved would one one carrying UN 1649 labels.  He wanted to see how many police officers and fire crews would survive the first response part of the exercise even after a 'surviving' member of the train crew had given them some (purposely) hazy details about the load.    Alas a Firemen's strike meant the exercise was cancelled and the next time I met the Chief Fire Officer was alongside a sleeping car which had been badly damaged internally by a fire.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by The Stationmaster
correct typo

[pete_mcfarlane]

31 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I suppose technically it was correct if the reactors weren't fuelled until they left Derbyshire.

There was a local fuss a decade or so back when it was discovered that the factory in Derby that made nuclear reactors contained a working nuclear reactor.

 

IIRC one of the universities in central Londhad one as well. 

[Northmoor]

3 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

There was a local fuss a decade or so back when it was discovered that the factory in Derby that made nuclear reactors contained a working nuclear reactor.

 

IIRC one of the universities in central Londhad one as well. 

That would have been Greenwich Naval College (now part of Greenwich University) which had one to train engineering officers for submarines.  The locals signs said the Borough was a nuclear-free zone, but they were mistaken! 

[BernardTPM]

Queen Mary College had one too, including during the time I was there.

[eastglosmog]

7 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

Although it was before we moved to this area, I'm led to believe that that road signs said "Welcome to Derbyshire, a Nuclear Free Zone" until it was pointed out to the Council that one of the Rolls Royce factories in Derby produced the nuclear reactors that went into every nuclear powered submarine. The signs were then replaced by ones saying "Derbyshire supports Nuclear Free Zones".

.

And also indicating that Derbyshire County Council had no idea about how the earth works.  Limestone (of which there is a lot in Derbyshire) is one of the main sources of Radon Gas (see https://radonassociation.co.uk/guide-to-radon/introduction/).  Radon levels in limestone country are as bad as they are in Granite country.  Any assertion that Derbyshire is nuclear free was a load of poppycock.

As an aside, anyone using geothermal heat is running on nuclear energy.  As is anyone relying on the sun - although that runs on nuclear fusion rather than fission, it is still nuclear power.

[MidlandRed]

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The amusing thing about that was that they never got near the place where the warheads, and most of the reserve stock of missiles, were stored or even knew about them being deployed to various firing sites (the best place to find out about that was driving along the M4 at the right moment).

Aha - you must be referring to the private junction off the M4 with an access road going north across the downs!! I think I saw a convoy appear there on one occasion!! I think it’s signed as ‘Works Unit’ - access is on to the eastbound carriageway only. There’s a blank area on OS maps to the north of the location. 
 

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Or use of nuclear isotopes in medicine.  ir's quite a fascinating experience to be given an injection from a hypodermic syringe which is encased in a hefty hunk of lead, but great fun subsequently watching the screen sowing the isotope making its way through your blood stream as it was just like a really good screen saver.  I was told that the stuff had a half life measured in hours (in single figures).

I had a similar experience - however having been ‘fitted’ with a large number of radioactive studs it was somewhat amusing (or maybe alarming) when part of the discharge process was for the urologist to point a Geiger counter at me and for it to make a great deal of noise…… the radioactivity gradually reduced to zero over 12 months but written instructions like no animals or small children to be sat on your lap for the first two months and various other matters indicates the potential for affecting others (beyond providing effective treatment, for which I’m most grateful). 
 

For all of those referring to ‘nuclear free zones’, there’s nothing wrong with local authority Committees voting to state their opposition to nuclear based power and its bi-product, nuclear warhead fuel - however the signs were, of course, illegal as such legend was not prescribed, and there were examples of the SoS, via the DfT instructing removal. However this type of thing is not unheard of - there have been other instances of instruction to remove such varied items as non compliant box junctions, or to place reflective studs in non compliant double white line systems. 
 

It’s also interesting that Planning systems proposed by the current administration considers ‘local support’ must be demonstrated for on shore wind farms, but not for new nuclear power stations (unless indirectly via the development consent order process) - not sure which are more visually intrusive or potentially dangerous to the local populace. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by MidlandRed

[kevinlms]

On 03/03/2023 at 19:43, jjb1970 said:

 

One of the problems that nuclear energy has always faced (and still does) is that many equate nuclear reactors with nuclear weapons. I used to work at Sellafield and it always ceased to amaze me how ignorant the loudest voices criticising the plant were about what it did. 

How is it fair to claim 'how ignorant the loudest voices criticising the plant were about what it did'? The best way usually of dealing with 'ignorance', is to provide education.

 

Fact is you were hardly running guided tours of the place, so people could find out what was behind the barriers keeping everyone out! People do draw the 'wrong' conclusions, if only told 'KEEP OUT'!

 

That doesn't even allow for the fact that nuclear weapons are kept 'somewhere'.

[jjb1970]

15 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

How is it fair to claim 'how ignorant the loudest voices criticising the plant were about what it did'? The best way usually of dealing with 'ignorance', is to provide education.

 

Fact is you were hardly running guided tours of the place, so people could find out what was behind the barriers keeping everyone out! People do draw the 'wrong' conclusions, if only told 'KEEP OUT'!

 

That doesn't even allow for the fact that nuclear weapons are kept 'somewhere'.

 

Actually BNFL did run guided tours of the plant and had a visitor center. Things got a lot more difficult after 9/11 for obvious reasons but the plant has always done a lot of outreach.

 

If people are really interested in the subject there are plenty of publicly available sources on the British weapons program.

[pete_mcfarlane]

And if you want to read about the British civil nuclear programme, CN Hill's 'An Atomic empire' is very good. 

[MarkC]

10 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Actually BNFL did run guided tours of the plant and had a visitor center. Things got a lot more difficult after 9/11 for obvious reasons but the plant has always done a lot of outreach.

 

If people are really interested in the subject there are plenty of publicly available sources on the British weapons program.

It was a very interesting place to visit. There was also a visitor centre at Hartlepool Power Station, which is near me, at one time too.

 

I also recall a school trip to Trawsfynydd power station, back in the mid-70s. We were taken further into the plant than the visitor centre. Fascinating stuff.

 

Mark

Edited March 6, 2023 by MarkC

[Fat Controller]

15 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Aha - you must be referring to the private junction off the M4 with an access road going north across the downs!! I think I saw a convoy appear there on one occasion!! I think it’s signed as ‘Works Unit’ - access is on to the eastbound carriageway only. There’s a blank area on OS maps to the north of the location. 
 

The lettering is a different colour (Red) to the normal signs for 'Works Sites', I recollect.

 

[Reorte]

15 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

It’s also interesting that Planning systems proposed by the current administration considers ‘local support’ must be demonstrated for on shore wind farms, but not for new nuclear power stations (unless indirectly via the development consent order process) - not sure which are more visually intrusive or potentially dangerous to the local populace. 

 

Rather a big difference in numbers, the two aren't really comparable from that perspective (one nuclear power station does the job of how many turbines, and generally isn't located in the most prominent location you can find). Main reason I'm pro nuclear power really, as the least bad current option.

[The Stationmaster]

26 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

 

This us the sign on the motorway

 

 

 

It was a very busy place during the Gulf War and the watch tower on the approach road - which you can see from the motorway - was manned whenever I drove past on the motorway.  At one time the place held a large stock of US forces  napalm bombs which were shipped out of France when De Gaulle kicked out NATO - all delivered by train hauled by a D63XX.  The train used to stand on the bi-directional Main Line  middle road at reading waiting ti follow a West of England service at about 17.00 on most weekdays - if it had gone off Reading station rebuilding might have gone ahead a lot earlier.

 

The site might still be still blank on OS maps but I have flown over it as a passenger in a hot air balloon and it is clearly visible on Google Maps so it's not exactly secret and I don't know if it is still in use. 

[Ian Smeeton]

RAF Welford.

 

I used to work at a Hotel called Elcot Park just a few miles to the South in the 80s

 

GEC as was used to run week long courses, including a team building exercise setting up line of sight microwave radio links in supposedly occupied enemy territory.

 

The course organiser  came in to the bar having dropped off the teams at various points with instructions to make their way back to the hotel without getting caught.

 

I asked him where he had dropped them off, and we got out the Ordnance Survey map to have a look.

 

Just here, here, and here, he said as he pointed to various spots to the North of the hotel.

 

Ahh, says I, you do realise that between them and  us is the biggest US Nuclear Arms Depot in Europe.

 

"there's nothing on the map" says he.

 

Exactly, says I.

 

Cue hasty exit and gathering up the teams befpre they managed to get themselves in to trouble.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[The Stationmaster]

9 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

Rather a big difference in numbers, the two aren't really comparable from that perspective (one nuclear power station does the job of how many turbines, and generally isn't located in the most prominent location you can find). Main reason I'm pro nuclear power really, as the least bad current option.

Interesting comparison about turbines in nuclear power stations.  Hinkley Point A had 6 turbines running at 3,000 rpm with a combined output of 500MW; Hinkley Point C will reportedly have only two turbines, running at 1,500 rpm, with a combined output of 3,200MW.  

 

West Burton, the first of the 2,000 MW power stations to be commissioned has 4 turbines fed by 4 (originally 100% coal fired)  boilers with a combined output of 2,000MW.  The last time I was there - several years back - they were running only two of the solid fuel fired units with very limited use of bio-mass in one of them although they had just about exhausted their stock of olive husks (left over from olive oil pressing!).   Their chimney is fitted with scrubbers with the result that they havea massive building on site to store the gypsum which is a product of the scrubbing process.

[Reorte]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interesting comparison about turbines in nuclear power stations.  Hinkley Point A had 6 turbines running at 3,000 rpm with a combined output of 500MW; Hinkley Point C will reportedly have only two turbines, running at 1,500 rpm, with a combined output of 3,200MW.  

 

West Burton, the first of the 2,000 MW power stations to be commissioned has 4 turbines fed by 4 (originally 100% coal fired)  boilers with a combined output of 2,000MW.  The last time I was there - several years back - they were running only two of the solid fuel fired units with very limited use of bio-mass in one of them although they had just about exhausted their stock of olive husks (left over from olive oil pressing!).   Their chimney is fitted with scrubbers with the result that they havea massive building on site to store the gypsum which is a product of the scrubbing process.

And a (well not quite directly, since it didn't come from the same power station AFAIK) rail-related aspect is that gypsum from power stations to, I believe, rather than from Kirkby Thore (to despite the gypsum mine there, but if they manufacture from it on the same site why not bring in any that's a byproduct) was the first regular freight back on the Settle-Carlisle for many years in the 90s.

[caradoc]

On 03/03/2023 at 13:26, Mark Saunders said:

It was the time that many councillors were declaring nuclear free zones and getting themselves in a tizzy about spent fuel flasks but not saying anything about HCN , Chlorine, Ammonia and other dangerous goods.

 

Presumably those same councillors were quite happy receiving their electricity from coal-fired power stations? How things change!

 

[caradoc]

17 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Actually BNFL did run guided tours of the plant and had a visitor center.

 

6 hours ago, MarkC said:

There was also a visitor centre at Hartlepool Power Station, which is near me, at one time too.

 

There was also one at Hunterston Power Station, which I visited some years ago. Their Control Centre was interesting, viewable through glass but off limits to absolutely everyone but those actually on duty there.

 

[The Johnster]

The US had a nuclear arms storage facility at Caerwent, between Newport and Chepstow visible from the A48 road and rail-served by a branch from Portskewett, worked by an STJ trip.  This was also marked as a blank space on the OS maps.

 

Friend of mine worked for Rank Xerox as a photocopying machine repair engineer (ink changer and cleaner), and had a fine old time with a little Ford Escort van running around South Wales and the Bristol area sorting them out, either by contract or in response to a call from a customer.  The contract jobs included a regular 6-monthly service of one on this base.  Same rigmarole each time; get to the gate barrier, explain to a US Marine with a big gun what his business was, only to be told that 'that building does not exist, sir!'.  He would then drive back into Caerwent village and phone his boss to explain the situation.  He would then go and have lunch in a pub, because he knew it would take his boss about an hour and half to get back to him; what procedure went on at that level he was not party to.  He was simply told 'don't ask, meaning, seriously, don't ask!'.

 

He'd then go back up to the gate, where he would be given a little paper badge that was supposed to turn a different colour after a specified number of Roentgens and an armed escort of Marines in two jeeps, one ahead and one behind his little Escort, took him to the non-existant building.  Two of them, big lads with big guns and no sense of humour, would accompany him in to the non-existant building where they remained on each side of him at all times.  He's only a little skinny wiry bloke; think 'The Great Gonzo' off the Muppets. 

 

Now, this is where it got interesting.  Inside the non-existant building was the non-existant photocopying machine, still not with full inks from the last non-visit because it hadn't been used (of course, a machine that does not exist in a building which also does not exist would not be expected to get much use).  It was not inserted into a sealed gap in a non-existant internal dividing wall between a non-existant 'clean' and an equally non-existant 'dirty' area, so that non-existant paper was not fed in on the 'clean' side and the copy print not taken out on the non-existant 'dirty' side, where it definitley would not be read, shredded, and bagged up in a non-existant bag for decontamination prior to 'disposal'.

 

Dave had to access both sides of the machine to carry out his servicing, and each time he went into the non-existant dirty area he had to strip off, accompanied by the marines, and climb into a non-existant full NBC suit with non-existant filtered BA, and then when he came back out, with the marines (they were highly existant, incidentally), they had to strip off again, bag up the non-existant NBC suits for decontamination, and undertake a non-existant full nuclear decontamination shower.  This would take place five times during he service, a normally 20-minute routine job that would take the rest of the day; he rarely left the site before dark.  At least fifteen NBC suits and sets of BA with battery packs would be used, and the experience of being closesly monitored and sharing showers with the marines was pretty daunting! 

 

He would then be escorted back to the gate by the two jeeps, and be required to sign some sort of official document to the effect that he had not seen any evidence of any such building, machine, or other paraphinalia during the time he had not been visiting this non-existant base.  He would also be asked for the paper badge, which never changed colour, back, and given a going over with a geiger counter, which woud obligingly make the clicking noises as in all good movies, and be told 'that's normal, sir, nothing to worry about', except on one occasion when there was a bit of a panic and he was kept in an isolation chamber 'just as a precaution. nothing to worry about sir' for 24 hours observation, with American cable tv and, he said, seriously top-notch food provided.  Following this, the geiger counter clicked the same amount as it had before, and he was told the same as before 'perfectly normal, sir, more radiation from a luminous watch, nothing to worry about' after 24 rather fraught hours during which there had clearly been something to worry about.  

 

That was his last visit.  Never told this, but he assumed he'd had his maximum safe dose of magic moonbeams, and someone else in the company took it on; he didn't miss it.  Or the marines...                         

[Gilbert]

24 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The US had a nuclear arms storage facility at Caerwent, between Newport and Chepstow visible from the A48 road and rail-served by a branch from Portskewett, worked by an STJ trip.  This was also marked as a blank space on the OS maps.

 

Friend of mine worked for Rank Xerox as a photocopying machine repair engineer (ink changer and cleaner), and had a fine old time with a little Ford Escort van running around South Wales and the Bristol area sorting them out, either by contract or in response to a call from a customer.  The contract jobs included a regular 6-monthly service of one on this base.  Same rigmarole each time; get to the gate barrier, explain to a US Marine with a big gun what his business was, only to be told that 'that building does not exist, sir!'.  He would then drive back into Caerwent village and phone his boss to explain the situation.  He would then go and have lunch in a pub, because he knew it would take his boss about an hour and half to get back to him; what procedure went on at that level he was not party to.  He was simply told 'don't ask, meaning, seriously, don't ask!'.

 

He'd then go back up to the gate, where he would be given a little paper badge that was supposed to turn a different colour after a specified number of Roentgens and an armed escort of Marines in two jeeps, one ahead and one behind his little Escort, took him to the non-existant building.  Two of them, big lads with big guns and no sense of humour, would accompany him in to the non-existant building where they remained on each side of him at all times.  He's only a little skinny wiry bloke; think 'The Great Gonzo' off the Muppets. 

 

Now, this is where it got interesting.  Inside the non-existant building was the non-existant photocopying machine, still not with full inks from the last non-visit because it hadn't been used (of course, a machine that does not exist in a building which also does not exist would not be expected to get much use).  It was not inserted into a sealed gap in a non-existant internal dividing wall between a non-existant 'clean' and an equally non-existant 'dirty' area, so that non-existant paper was not fed in on the 'clean' side and the copy print not taken out on the non-existant 'dirty' side, where it definitley would not be read, shredded, and bagged up in a non-existant bag for decontamination prior to 'disposal'.

 

Dave had to access both sides of the machine to carry out his servicing, and each time he went into the non-existant dirty area he had to strip off, accompanied by the marines, and climb into a non-existant full NBC suit with non-existant filtered BA, and then when he came back out, with the marines (they were highly existant, incidentally), they had to strip off again, bag up the non-existant NBC suits for decontamination, and undertake a non-existant full nuclear decontamination shower.  This would take place five times during he service, a normally 20-minute routine job that would take the rest of the day; he rarely left the site before dark.  At least fifteen NBC suits and sets of BA with battery packs would be used, and the experience of being closesly monitored and sharing showers with the marines was pretty daunting! 

 

He would then be escorted back to the gate by the two jeeps, and be required to sign some sort of official document to the effect that he had not seen any evidence of any such building, machine, or other paraphinalia during the time he had not been visiting this non-existant base.  He would also be asked for the paper badge, which never changed colour, back, and given a going over with a geiger counter, which woud obligingly make the clicking noises as in all good movies, and be told 'that's normal, sir, nothing to worry about', except on one occasion when there was a bit of a panic and he was kept in an isolation chamber 'just as a precaution. nothing to worry about sir' for 24 hours observation, with American cable tv and, he said, seriously top-notch food provided.  Following this, the geiger counter clicked the same amount as it had before, and he was told the same as before 'perfectly normal, sir, more radiation from a luminous watch, nothing to worry about' after 24 rather fraught hours during which there had clearly been something to worry about.  

 

That was his last visit.  Never told this, but he assumed he'd had his maximum safe dose of magic moonbeams, and someone else in the company took it on; he didn't miss it.  Or the marines...                         

Excellent - thank you...

[Hibelroad]

8 hours ago, MarkC said:

It was a very interesting place to visit. There was also a visitor centre at Hartlepool Power Station, which is near me, at one time too.

 

I also recall a school trip to Trawsfynydd power station, back in the mid-70s. We were taken further into the plant than the visitor centre. Fascinating stuff.

 

Mark

I worked at Traws in 1977, I must of just missed you! I did go on a guided tour in the lateish 90s when it was being decommissioned but I think those have ended now. 

[MarkC]

20 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

I worked at Traws in 1977, I must of just missed you! I did go on a guided tour in the lateish 90s when it was being decommissioned but I think those have ended now. 

It was definitely 1976/7 - first year of 6th Form, IIRC - a day trip from Crosby. ISTR our coach having serious *fun getting round some of the corners on the North Wales roads...

 

*other descriptions are possible...