Nick Dunhill’s workshop (scratch)building a SECR P class from the awful Alpha Graphics Kit.

[nickd]

On inspecting the etches I noticed that the footplate was continuous under the boiler to the rear of the smoke box and that the chassis was a one piece fold up jobby.

 

The coupling rods were etched in brass(!) and not jointed, which is essential for a model with suspension.

 

I roughed out some boss overlays from scrap nickel silver sheet and re jigged the rods to look a bit more realistic.

 

 

 

The finished loco will be in SECR livery and feature inside motion IF the budget would allow.  The cross members on the chassis etch would have to go therefore and be replaced with ones in the correct place if inside motion was to be fitted.  Also I would have to cut a hole in the footplate to reveal the motion, and fill some random others.

 

Here’s the chassis after a bit of a rework.  You can see that I have made all the stays in the prototypical places and added the front and sides of the ash pan.  The ash pan was scratch built as there’s nowt for it in the kit and you can see the gearbox through the lightening holes In the frames.

 

 

I turned to the footplate and reduced the height and length of the valences and attached them to the underside of the footplate along with the buffer beams.  I soldered 1.5 x 1.5 mm L section brass to the backs of the valences to keep them straight and aid with fixing to the footplate.  None of the above parts have any registration slots or grooves to locate them.  I then went to town a bit adding all the angle that would normally be under the footplate holding it all together.

 

I cut the footplate away under the boiler where it shouldn’t be!

 

 

 

You can see that I made and modified some CPL SECR couplings.  The shank of the rear hook has been extended to fit the drag box and the front one shortened.  I fitted the cast white metal buffer shanks with their turned heads.

 

Tomorrow I plan to scratch build a cab and bunker as the etches supplied are dimensionally wrong….by a lot.  I saw a thread elsewhere where the builder couldn’t fit the BR number onto the bunker as it was too short.  The bunker should be 17 mm long from the rear to the door opening and the etch is 14 mm so I’m not surprised.  The cab front and rear and the bunker rear are 2 mm too narrow and the cab should be 3 mm longer.  I rang Warren Haywood and he said that he wouldn’t be able to paint all the correct borders and boxes of lining onto the cab sides and then fit the numbers and works plate. 

 

Methinks there won’t be enough in the budget for inside motion.  Pity, it’s a cute little loco.

Edited March 15, 2023 by nickd

[nickd]

Client wants no. 325.  If anyone has any pics of it in SECR livery I would be grateful.

 

Thanks

[Craigw]

Nick,

I really do enjoy your builds.  Excellent standard and well explained. Your scrap bin and the filling of it are always interesting, I am amazed by your ability to keep going with the kits sometimes.

 

I am looking forward to this one and also how much ends up in said bin with your cat looking on in wonder.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

 

[roythebus1]

What scale is this?

[nickd]

7 mm Roy.

[nickd]

[nickd]

Hi all
I wonder if someone could help. You can see from the attached photos my model with it's scratchbuilt cab. It is substantially different in dimensions to the kit cab! Of course the kit boiler doesn't fit so I'm scratchbuilding one of those too now.

The tank tops extend beyond the inner edge of the tank sides up to the boiler clothing. Can anyone tell me whether there's a gap between the tank top and boiler clothing or does the boiler clothing sit on top of the tank top?

Thanks

[nickd]

Here are the cab sides that I cut out using my GA as a reference.

 

 

You can see the dimensional differences.  The cab was also too narrow so I had to cut out cab front, back and bunker rear.

 

 

Here is everything assembled.

 

 

 

Today I measured up the smokebox parts and found the former to be too high and too big in diameter, which wouldn't have been such an issue if the base wasn't woefully narrow.  So I am scratchbuilding a boiler and smokebox and firebox then fitting the tanks round it all.  Of course the cab roof will not now fit so I'll have to make one of those as well.  

 

I am having some difficult conversations with the client about the cost of a small 0-6-0T locomotive.

[Scorpio7uk]

19 hours ago, nickd said:

Can anyone tell me whether there's a gap between the tank top and boiler clothing or does the boiler clothing sit on top of the tank top?

This may help Nick - https://docbrown.info/docspics/ArchiveSteam/loco31178.htm 

 

The backhead shot halfway down seems to show that the gap is filled - whether it was like that before preservation - I don't know.

 

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/wn-2012b/323_johns_29may12h.jpg

Hard to tell from this shot but it may be useful to you anyway.....

 

Good luck!

Jeff

[nickd]

So cracking on, this week I have built a boiler and smokebox.  The boiler in the kit is too big, the smokebox is the wrong shape (and too big) and the tanks too wrong, although I did use the tank sides, modified of course.

 

 

 

 

I just didn't like the way the tanks were designed with front, top and rear that go across from side to side.  The top of the boiler and firebox just sits on the tank top.  By the time I had reduced the tank sides to the height of one of the later 6 (the tanks and bunker in the kit are too low for the first 2 and too high for the last 6) the boiler would have sat too low.

 

I made my own.

 

 

 

Phew.

[nickd]

More P Class 'fun.'

 

Since the last post I have added the bits of the tanks inside the cab, the cab floor and the lockers/splashers.  I had to cut the floor in half to get it in but thats OK as I'll be adding planking later.

 

 

I made the cab roof next.  It's quite challenging to make with all the guttering and the verandah shape.  I roughed the end bits of guttering out of scrap, soldered them on and fashioned it to shape with my grinder.

 

 

The bag of castings in the background are for the loco.  Most of it is only useful as fishing weights. 

 

 

oops a bit squint in that photo.

 

 

 

 

Also in the pics you can see that I have added the rest of the lamp irons.  The GA only shows 4 irons front and rear.  was the additional middle pair a SR addition?

 

Also you can see from the above pic (if you zoom in!) that the front top lamp iron has a small additional hook incorporated in it.  In the historic photo of number 325 you can see cord/air hose(?) connections from the front and rear coaches.  Presumably this is a coms system for push-pull working.  Anyone any idea how it works and has any details of it?

 

Ta.

[pete_mcfarlane]

On 07/03/2023 at 15:15, nickd said:

The tank tops extend beyond the inner edge of the tank sides up to the boiler clothing. Can anyone tell me whether there's a gap between the tank top and boiler clothing or does the boiler clothing sit on top of the tank top?
 

The P must be one of the few locos where you can see this from platform level.. 

So the tank top extends to meet the boiler,  but with a small raised lip where they meet. The other thing I'd never noticed before is that the splashers appear to be pressings. 

 

And no need to worry if you can't get the dome to sit properly on the boiler......

[Camperdown]

"I am having some difficult conversations with the client..."  I'll bet.  Still, sometimes it's better just to give up on poorly fitting etched parts and cut the proper size from n/s --- as I'm currently finding with a 4mm DMR Z class.

[nickd]

Aaargh!  DMR Z Class.  I built one in 7 mm and it was appalling.  Well to be fair it was another kit that was just about buildable and looked a bit like a Z, it was rather in the same vein as this P build.  If you want accuracy though the piercing saw has to come out of the box!

 

I remember the etch for the footplate.  The designer placed some very high expectations on the modeller to be able to form it correctly.  And even if they did the resulting structure was wrong.

 

I bet the 7 mm etches are just the 4 mm ones enlarged.  The fold lines aren't quite wide enough making it hard to get 90° bends without panel distortion.  That's a classic problem with 4 mm kits blown up to 7 mm.

 

This might help you with your Z build.  Notice how the bunker tapers from the cab entrance to the rear of the body, and that there's a subtle vertical fold line in the bunker  about half way along to increase the taper.

 

https://www.flickr.com/gp/144381574@N05/KZD5PTw802

 

If you fish around in my other Flickr albums you'll find more Z drawings there too.

[Camperdown]

Thanks for the link to the drawing.  The same drawing is in the Tibble book, but there it's very poorly reproduced, so the dimensions aren't really readable.

 

I've just erected the cab/bunker/tank sides on a new (nickel) footplate, with new valences and new cab front and rear.  The bunker needed an extension at the base as the rearmost drop in the footplate was too shallow.  The tank sides are now correctly spaced apart, which means I will need new tank tops/fronts and bunker rear.  I'm expecting to have to replace the boiler, and perhaps smokebox too.

 

Part of the trouble for me is that in 4mm, the body is etched from 0.4mm brass.  This is the equivalent of building the full sized loco from ragged-edged, flame cut 1.25 inch plate.  OK, even 0.010" nickel is a scale 3/4 in thick, but at least with hand made parts you can get to scale size with a good, clean edge.  I should really remind myself that most etched kits are just too much damned work and stick to scratch building.

[JeffP]

Always interested in these expert builds, but I do need to restrain myself, as attempting to copy procedures found here, and with the likes of Rob Pulham, or CLAG, have shown up my own inadequacies.😒 

Rob, you always seem to work from drawings, which is pretty obviously the way to do it, but where do they come from?

I recently wanted drawings of a BR Britannia, but could only find them suitable for a 5" gauge model and priced at over £100🙄 

I know of Isinglass but they are mostly LNER.

[nickd]

Dunno about Rob but I get my drawings from societies, the NRM or just helpfull fellow modellers.  Isinglass drawings not much use in 7 mm.

[pete_mcfarlane]

On 14/03/2023 at 19:56, Camperdown said:

"I am having some difficult conversations with the client..."  I'll bet.  Still, sometimes it's better just to give up on poorly fitting etched parts and cut the proper size from n/s --- as I'm currently finding with a 4mm DMR Z class.

The problem then is that poor suckers see the great looking finished result and buy the kit on the back of it..... 

Edited March 23, 2023 by pete_mcfarlane

[nickd]

I should change the title of my thread.

[Scorpio7uk]

3 hours ago, JeffP said:

I recently wanted drawings of a BR Britannia,

If you are still looking for it, there's a fairly decent GA of the elevation and plan of the Britannia in 'A pictorial record of British Railways Standard Steam Locomotives' - Edward Talbot  1982/2000.

 

Worth getting for any BR standard in my opinion, there's a few other GA drawings in there too.

 

NRM is the place to get the full size versions.

 

Jeff

[JeffP]

2 hours ago, nickd said:

Dunno about Rob but I get my drawings from societies, the NRM or just helpfull fellow modellers.  Isinglass drawings not much use in 7 mm.

Could you explain please?

[nickd]

Most societies eg SRPS have drawings of the locomotives they own, the NRM archive has many thousands of railway drawings in it's catalogue.  I have used Isinglass drawings and they're ok for a general outline but a GA is much more useful.

[nickd]

Hi comrades, does anyone have a decent picture of the steam reverser rodding on top of the tank and inside the cab?  It's time to fit the parts up!

[nickd]

So in the last week or so I have burned through the detail parts of the model.  The last structure that had to be made was the backhead.  There was a white metal thing in the kit which was approximately the right shape with cast blobs to represent some of the fittings.  To be fair the casting was a bit too short and, being white metal, was a bit too thick.  I needed to have the volume inside the backhead available in case the space was needed to accommodate the motor.  Turns out that the Slater's SG38 gearbox fitted with a Taff Vale 1525 was still too tall for the boiler, so the Taff Vale worm and gear gearbox is now fitted.

 

 

Lots of the backhead fittings are from a Laurie Griffin set, as is the steam reverser.  Everything is dtachable for paint.

 

 

 

Theres more pics here https://www.flickr.com/photos/144381574@N05/with/52767202593/

 

The bodywork is virtually done and just about within budget, so I think were ON for a bit of inside motion activity!  The client would like all the push-pull fittings included so if anyone has any insight into what was there I'd be grateful.

[nickd]

Due to rain I put a bit of a shift in at the wekend and managed to finish the brake gear and sander stuff.  There's brake hangers and shoes in the kit but nothing else of any use, so most of it is castings sourced elsewhere (LGM mainly) and scratchbuilt stuff.

 

 

There was enough cash in the budget to build the inside motion and I bought one of Laurie's Stephenson kits.  One for an LSWR loco was the nearest, but horror of horrors lots of the castings were much too big for such a small loco.

 

A process of miniaturisation has begun.

 

 

I new the shrinking-raygun would come in useful.

 

 

This will be my challenge for tomorrow, the crank webs/journals were waaay too big so I reshaped them and drilled them for a new 3.0 mm big end journal.  What could possibly go wrong with that?

 

 

 

 

I'm probably going to have to make a pair of con rods too.  Hope there's some left over etches from something else to get me going.