Large locos on a pick up goods

[LeytonGWR]

Hi all. I'm hoping someone can help. I'm currently in the process of designing a layout based around a GWR branch / secondary line. Does anyone have any knowledge of a larger loco such as a 28xx operating a pick up goods on such a route? Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[roythebus1]

If it's any help, I recently saw a photo of an LMS 8F on the Hammersmith & Chiswick branch from South Acton, a line that closed to passenger traffic in 1916 and goods traffic in about 1970. The pick-up goods usually ran from Brent yard with whatever loco was available.

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, LeytonGWR said:

Hi all. I'm hoping someone can help. I'm currently in the process of designing a layout based around a GWR branch / secondary line. Does anyone have any knowledge of a larger loco such as a 28xx operating a pick up goods on such a route? Thanks

 

Much will depend on the axle load of the locomotive v. the weight restriction on the route. The Great Western had a handy colour-coding system, of which there's a description here, though oriented toward the preservation era:

https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_Power_and_Weight_Classification

The 28xx 2-8-0s were, I read, initially in the red restriction, confining them to the principal main lines, but in 1919 were reclassified blue - by what jiggery-pokery that was managed, I don't know. 

 

There's some information on the colour coding of routes here:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_equip195.htm

 

So I think the question is, how secondary is your secondary line?

I doubt that many of the classic bucolic Great western branch lines beloved of modellers will have been more than yellow.

 

I expect those more knowledgeable than I will be along presently.

[Paul H Vigor]

I'm sure I've seen photos of GWR 28xx locos hauling china clay on Cornish branchlines?

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

I'm sure I've seen photos of GWR 28xx locos hauling china clay on Cornish branchlines?

 

What were the route restriction codes for the various china clay lines?

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What were the route restriction codes for the various china clay lines?

Almost everything you can think of except Yellow.  Fiowey was Dotted Red from Par and Blue from Lostwithiel.  The various branches between Burngullow and St Dennis Jcn were Uncoloured (but certain Yellow and Blue classes were permitted subject to various restrictions) as were some others but one short clay branch was Red while Bodmin was Blue.

 

But the RA colour was only a minor part of the story on many lines because individual siding clearance restrictions were far more important when it camne to shunting yards etc and they often excluded larger classes notwithstanding a route being, say, Red or Double Red.  and equally of course in some cases engines of a higher RA group could be authorised over a line of a lower RA group (the classic example is 'Manors' being authorised over the Cambrian main line  t Aberystwyth.

 

But the real decision about what was used on local trip freights was really down to the availability of engines and the load needung to be move.  Nobody would waste a 28XX on a local trip when there was plenty of work that needed their power capability.  2251 definitely worked branch freight trips - they were a regular on our local branch (which was Red and also on one occasion saw a 28XX on an engineering train) and the Reading Central branch, also Red.  But I think the reason why they were preferred was probably because of their water capacity.

 

Most large engines weren't really suitable for shunting, especially if they had a screw reverser, because of sighting problems, especially round the tender, length in awkward yards, and being barred from various sidings.  So using one - if one was available - would be a fairly desperate measure on a local freight trip involving shunting lots of yards.

[Miss Prism]

St Blazey usually had a couple of 2-8-0Ts for china clay work, but I don't think the 2-8-0s ever worked in that capacity.

[Wickham Green too]

I think it's a fair bet no 28XX ever got up to Wenford Bridge ! 🙄

[The Johnster]

Individual siding prohibitions were probably more restrictive of what locos could be used in the South Wales Newport Division, where all lines were considerd to be 'red' routes.  A siding might be prohibited to certain classes because of fixed wheelbase/sharp curvature, axle loading, or clearances, particularly in the case of GW engine with two outside cylinders, usually the widest part of the locomotive.  Screw reverse was not liked for jobs that entailed a lot of shunting for obvious reasons.  So, in general, locos like 28xx, RODs, WDs, Stanier 8Fs or Riddles 9Fs were not favoured for jobs where a degree of shunting was involved, and this is almost the definition of a pick-up goods.

 

But the phrase 'in general' allows a good bit of leeway.  Some heavy freight jobs worked over what were rather secondary main lines, so one might see a 28xx with a good load on at Ledbury or Great Malvern, or on what looked like a Valleys branch between Pontypool Road and Neath via Aberdare, though admittedly these were through goods trains and not pickups.  And, although that is how we tend to think of them, pickups were not restricted to bucolic branch lines; in the pre-Beechingdays when there were small goods yards at stations along the main lines they could be seen plying their trade in between the faster traffic, shunting each yard between the larger stations.  On both branch and main lines, pickus could occasionally run to full-length 60 wagon trains where the trafffic demanded it, and these needed big engines.  On top of that, any loco alllowed to run over any route might be substituted for a failure, especially if it was the only one available in steam and ready to go at the time.

 

But, as a generalisation, a heavy freight locomotive capable of running a long distance on a tender full of coal will not usually appear on a pickup job, because those tend to be short distance and less heavily loaded jobs.  Heavy goods engines were not over-provided on the GWR, hence the purchase of ex-ROD WW1 surplus Robinson 04s, the use of Swindon-built Stanier 8Fs and USATC S160s during the war before they were shipped overseas, and the use of Stanier 8Fs and WD 2-8-0s in BR days, so for the most part these engines could not be spared for pickup work.  I can remember watcing a Pontypool Road Stanier 8F shunting the GW goods yard at Mountain Ash on what was obviousy a pickup job in 1963 when I was 11 and starting to take more notice of this sort of thing, probably because PPRD was being run down then and it was possibly all they had available.  It was a good length train, and a long run for a pickup, but there are no loco sheds on this route between Pontypool Road and Aberdare, and depending how many of the yards along that route it had had to visit, must have taken several hours.  I'd have considered a 43xx or 2251 a more likely candidate for this job, and also once saw the same yard shunted by a 74xx pannier, probably an Aberdare engine.

 

A lever reverse is a clear advantage on a shunting job, and a screw, although offering finer cut-off adjustments and fuel economy, would add appreciable amounts to how long the work could be expected to take and how tired the driver was at the end of it.  Pickup, trip, and colliery clearance work is different in character from block, yard to yard transfer, and main line long distance goods jobs, and involves a lot more back-and-forth and a lot less progress along main lines where even if you are running loop-to-loop and taking your time over it you are only going in one direction, and you can leave the screw alone or only have to move it a couple of turns at a time, which would not be feasible on a job with a lot of shunting.  And for yard or depot shunting a lever reverse becomes essential!

 

Mike's comments about sighting are important as well, we didn't have mobile phones in those days you know; an engine designed to be used on shunting work, even if it is not used exclusively on such work, is usually designed with this in mind.  Sloping tops to side tanks are usually for this reason.  The driver has to be be able to see when ground staff are going 'in between' to attend to screw couplings and vacuum/steam heating hoses (bags on the WR), and to be able to observe handsignals from them even when they are a good distance from the loco.  These sight lines are not as important a part of the design of a main line heavy freight or passenger engine, but are a very important aspect of yard working.  Curvature may need banksmen on the ground to relay handsignals, which will also have an effect on the time taken to do the job, especially if they are not available and the driver has to wait for the shunter or guard to walk to a position where he can be seen to observe handsignals.  This of course was even more fun in darkness or during fog or falling snow (FFS)!

 

Locos designed solely for shunting work usually have recessed steps on which the shunters can ride in full view of the driver, or platforms at the ends.

[Wheatley]

Not GWR but somewhere out in the wild there is a photo of a Jubilee shunting Cardigan Road goods yard in Leeds. IIRC it was the 60s though ... Plenty of evidence of Black 5s on stopping goods, although not necessarily on country branch lines. 

[Halvarras]

6 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

St Blazey usually had a couple of 2-8-0Ts for china clay work, but I don't think the 2-8-0s ever worked in that capacity.

 

St Blazey's 2-8-0Ts will be the reason why the Par - Fowey route was coded red, as mentioned by @The Stationmaster. Heavy beasties required to get loaded clay trains up the hill through Pinnock tunnel. They were used almost exclusively on that route although I'm sure one of my books shows one piloting a 4-6-0 on a holiday train over Goss Moor so they must have enjoyed the odd weekend visit to Newquay.

 

I didn't think the 28xx locos worked into Cornwall at all but another thread last year pointed out that they did occasionally show up and photo evidence appears in a Bradford Barton book I (ahem) happen to possess! In my defence I hadn't looked at it in years....... So maybe on a main line freight turn which included some china clay wagons but unlikely beyond that.

 

[melmoth]

As a single track secondary route, the Hereford - Gloucester line might be worth looking at for this sort of thing.

 

[The Johnster]

59 minutes ago, melmoth said:

As a single track secondary route, the Hereford - Gloucester line might be worth looking at for this sort of thing.

 

 

Blue route availability, but I've never heard of a 28xx on it.  Not really a through heavy freight route despite the intentions of it's builders of a direct through route from Hereford to London.  It was mostly worked by Manors, 43xx, 2251s and 5101 large prairies in BR days IIRC, with 57xx/8750 panniers appearing from the Monmouth direction at Ross-on-Wye on pickups, as well as 14xx, 64xx, and railcars on passenger workings.

[Rivercider]

Might a 28xx have ever worked the coal traffic from Kingswear to Torquay Hollicombe Gas works?

Weight wise I think a 28xx would be permitted over the route, but I don't remember seeing pictures

of one there in BR days. I don't think many (any) 28xx were allocated to depots in Devon and Cornwall,

and the coal was worked more as a block train, so would not be classed as a pick up freight as it

did not normally shunt on the way.

 

cheers 

[pH]

22 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Not GWR but somewhere out in the wild there is a photo of a Jubilee shunting Cardigan Road goods yard in Leeds. IIRC it was the 60s though ... Plenty of evidence of Black 5s on stopping goods, although not necessarily on country branch lines. 

In the late 1950s, when Polmadie still had Jubilees, they would use one on an early morning train to Gourock and it would then work back towards Glasgow on the daily pickup goods.

 

Once the Jubilees were finally transferred to Corkerhill, Polmadie would use one of their Clans on that duty till all of them were withdrawn at the end of 1962.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by pH
Missing word. And wrong date!

[LeytonGWR]

Thanks all. Rmweb proves to be a fascinating treasure trove of information as always. Based on your replies, I think the largest loco I'll choose for my pick up goods will be a 43xx, but I guess there's always Rule 1 if I'm tempted by something bigger! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 08/03/2023 at 23:29, melmoth said:

As a single track secondary route, the Hereford - Gloucester line might be worth looking at for this sort of thing.

 

Grange Court Jcn - Rotherwas Jcn was Dotted Red.  42XX 2-8-0T and 72XX 2-8-2T were per subject to numerous siding restrictions while 45XX/4575 were also subject to various sidinf restrictions.  all Red 4-6-0 classes were permitted subject toa 20mph overall rrstiction of speed plus various siding restrictions while 2-8-0 Austerities were also restricted from numerous sidings.

 

Lack of nemntion of 28XX in teh 1950 restrictions suggesys that rgwet. were not normally seen over the route and that makes some sense when you realise that WD Austerities were mentioned/. local freight trips were inevitably be worked by tank engines or 0-6-0s there were quite a lot f siding restrictions on 2-6-0s which suggests they might not have been suitable for the work.

[bodmin16]

They used to operate run along the branch over Dartmoor from Pen Tor Road, I am sure if you "googled" there is probably some evidence of this maybe even a photo or two!😉🤭

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, bodmin16 said:

They used to operate run along the branch over Dartmoor from Pen Tor Road, I am sure if you "googled" there is probably some evidence of this maybe even a photo or two!😉🤭

I know - I used to drive them - many years ago when I was regular volunteer for that duty. 🤘

[MidlandRed]

With great and due respect to the members referring to GWR/WR practice, would the relative amounts of 2-8-0 locos available have a bearing on availability to operate a pick up goods train? 
 

The LMS/LMR is obviously a much bigger network but had over 1000 2-8-0 or 0-8-0 locos available, in comparison to the low hundreds for GW operations. 
 

I know I’ve seen LMR 8Fs operating short trains (for instance depositing wagons at a water softening plant) and there’s a couple of photos recently uploaded of an 8F on a pick up goods operating on the Settle and Carlisle in Dave F’s photos. I suspect it was a case of what’s available was used - and the volume of 8Fs might have a bearing on it. 

 

J0861 and J0863 depict this. 
 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-each-day/page/944/

Edited March 10, 2023 by MidlandRed

[The Johnster]

Locomotive availability in general was maintained at a sufficient amount of locomotives of suitable types to cover the work at a given shed, with spares to cover boiler washouts, works visits, mechanical failures &c.  The world is not a perfect place, and I imagine any shed foreman would tell you that he could do with a few more engines; photographs show that Tondu, which I'm citing as an example because I know a little bit about that shed, often sent out non-auto fitted locos with autotrailers being used as normal coaches on auto jobs, which suggests that they didn't always have enough auto-fitted locomotives to cover the auto work.  BR Database confirms this, with the shed usually having five auto-fitted engines for five auto diagrams, meaning that any out of service (boiler washouts every eight working days, loco out of service for 48 hours minimum) were replaced by 'normal' locomotives; they had enough autos, but no spares.

 

The LMR was the main player in the death steam scenario, and towards the end of steam it is reasonable to suggest that 8-coupled locos, Stanier 8Fs. one of the two largest classes remaining in the last couple of years, were being used on much lighter work than they might have been four or five years previously, including pickups and local trips.  There are a decreasing number of us who can remember in detail a time before 'death steam', and it may well be that our perception of what normal steam working was is 'informed' by that period.  I can remember Black 5s as station pilots at Preston and Manchester Exchang in 1967 and 1968, for example, work that would have not long before been done by Jinties.

 

I note that Dave F's photos of the 8F on pickup work at Horton in Ribblesdale are from 1967, very much death steam territory.  Again, I suspect that the job would have been done by something smaller only a very few years earlier, 4F or Ivatt 4MT perhaps.  There were still Ivatt 4MTs about in 1967, but they were getting a bit thin on the ground, and the 4Fs were extinct.  What steam there was in those last years was not really representative of normal steam working; BR had clearly decided that the two standard LMS classes, Stanier Black 5s and 8Fs, that survived in the greatest numbers, would become the only two in service if steam lasted long enough, and anything else that survived did so by chance.  By the beginning of1968 they were down to Black 5s, 8Fs, Ivatt 4MT moguls, BR standard 4MT 4-6-0s, 9Fs, and a Britannia, six classes, down from Jubilees, Jinty, B1, J27, Q6, WD, Stanier and BR standard 4MT 2-6-4Ts, BR standard 4MT moguls, Bullied MNs and light pacifics, Q1s, BR standard 3MT 2-6-2Ts and one of the 77xxx tender variants, USA tanks, Woolwhich moguls, and Ivatt 2MT 2-6-2Ts, in addition to those at the beginning of 1967; 24 classes, four times the variety.  The biodiversity was contracting fast, especially for the smaller classes.  In 1968 Ivatt 4MT moguls were the smallest steam engines in service, and only one survived to the end.

[MidlandRed]

@The Johnster I don’t disagree with you regarding the ‘Death Steam’ era. And receipt of a new Ian Allen Combined Volume was always a fervent read in the early 60s to see exactly what steam had disappeared (and what modern image had appeared). However apart from the Dave F photo, my observations were from 1961-4 on LMR lines around Birmingham. During this era I also saw 70042 (in very clean condition) pulling a short freight train through Sutton Park - tender first as well! I’d say Saltley may have had its first allocation of type 2s by then, but full dieselisation wasn’t till 1966 ish (Bescot - receiving amongst a host of others, brand new D8134-43) and if you ventured to the ex WR lines radiating from Snow Hill, in 1966 much freight was steam hauled and even one or two peak period local passenger trains  (Stanier 8F, Black 5 and 9Fs predominated on heavy freight by then though there were plenty of ex GW locos) (except Castles and Kings - express passenger was Brush type 4 post late 1963, preceded for a short period of about a year by Westerns). 
 

I suppose ‘Death Steam’ occurred locally for me around 1965-6, maybe 1967 if you travelled as far as Shrewsbury - I can’t remember the exact date but probably late 1966 I wandered around one of the dilapidated roundhouses at Tyseley where there several steam locos including pannier tanks, some in steam - the place was virtually deserted, although the DMU depot and diesel repair depots were hives of activity. This really was ‘Death Steam’!! The energising of the WCML electrification Birmingham area in early 1967 heralded a large change generally in motive power including the adjoining non electrified routes (banishing of several hitherto ubiquitous DMU types, I discovered subsequently to Chester and the bucolic Cambrian being one). Snow Hill downgrade and removal of through traffic occurred as well. And then we got some Warships……extraordinary!! 

Edited March 11, 2023 by MidlandRed

[Phil Bullock]

On 09/03/2023 at 00:37, The Johnster said:

 

Blue route availability, but I've never heard of a 28xx on it.  Not really a through heavy freight route despite the intentions of it's builders of a direct through route from Hereford to London.  It was mostly worked by Manors, 43xx, 2251s and 5101 large prairies in BR days IIRC, with 57xx/8750 panniers appearing from the Monmouth direction at Ross-on-Wye on pickups, as well as 14xx, 64xx, and railcars on passenger workings.

But Standard 5s and even a Jubilee were not unknown towards the end…

 

Mist likely turn for a 28xx on a pick up goods is probably Swindon to Didcot serving Challow and other Vale of White Horse stations with a loco ex Swindon works on a running in turn. Very much a main line of course.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Phil Bullock
Additional info

[MidlandRed]

I actually can’t remember what locos were used on pick up goods on WR lines like Snow Hill through to Stourbridge but there were numerous goods yards en route such as Rowley Regis and Cradley Heath amongst others. Also were there not pick up goods along the more important main lines on the WR? And could these have had larger engines? 
 

What makes me ask is I recall quite vividly the pick up goods on the southern end of the WMCL in the mid 60s - they were often hauled by new D766x type 2s, built in BR blue (this sticking in the mind) and used also on the Kensington to Willesden portion of motor rail trains. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by MidlandRed

[Phil Bullock]

9 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

I actually can’t remember what locos were used on pick up goods on WR lines like Snow Hill through to Stourbridge but there were numerous goods yards en route such as Rowley Regis and Cradley Heath amongst others. Also were there not pick up goods along the more important main lines on the WR? And could these have had larger engines? 
 

57 and 56xx wasn’t it?