Cows in cattle wagons - how arranged?

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I'm making assumptions here, but if the partitions were put in to hold the beasts up in transit as well as to separate them, then presumably removing the partitions would release enough space for them to be able to turn themselves around; they have quite small turning circles for such large beasts and will want to help the process along to get out of the confined space.

 

To move the partition from outside the wagon would be rather difficult, without a platform on both sides. We're dealing with a hefty piece of woodwork about 7 ft by 4 ft. Besides, this doesn't address the question of how the cattle would turn if packed into a wagon where the partition was not in use - a genuine small or medium truck as well as a fully-loaded large one.

[eastglosmog]

I am sure I have read somewhere that the primary purpose of the partitions was to prevent the hirer getting more square feet of cattle wagon than they paid for when railway companies decided it was not worth while building small size cattle trucks.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

To move the partition from outside the wagon would be rather difficult, without a platform on both sides. We're dealing with a hefty piece of woodwork about 7 ft by 4 ft.

Even with access from both sides, lifting the partition from outside the truck would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, I would think. Which makes me ask - did the partitions have any sort of handhold to lift them by? Attempting to lift a large, heavy, flat wooden item by gripping its top edge would be pretty futile. Also, I assume the notches in the wagon sides that take the projecting ‘ears’ on the partition are replicated in some way on the floor, to hold the bottom in position?

 

Nick

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Also, I assume the notches in the wagon sides that take the projecting ‘ears’ on the partition are replicated in some way on the floor, to hold the bottom in position?

 

The Midland drawings show wooden blocks at floor level, up against the sides, that form locating slots for the bottom corners of the partition.

[Right Away]

12 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

On Youtube in two parts.  Cattle loading begins at 6m 12s in part one with no sign of tethering horned beasts that I could see. I'd guess this is the 1950s so may be different from earlier practice of course.

 

 

 

 

Wonderful, simply wonderful! Thanks for posting.

[Michael Hodgson]

If you are not using the partition because you have enough cattle to use the whole wagon, where do you stow the it?  Was there a position agaimst the end wall for this?

 

Penning the beasts into one end of the wagon with the movabe partititon would put the load at that end,  Not exactly the "Load equally distibuted" that was seen as a good idea on other stock to provide smooth running.

[Welchester]

This question of partitions sort of rang a bell, and a quick glance at the GWR wagon bible revealed that, because livestock owners were not averse to moving the partition to gain more space than they had paid for, two GWR employees devised and patented a locking mechanism, which appears to be this:

Improvements in, or relating to Cattle Trucks

[kitpw]

18 minutes ago, Welchester said:

GWR employees devised and patented a locking mechanism

....well found!  Marillier had several patents. 1876, went to Swindon as a draughtsman; in 1898 manager of GWR wagon works at Saltney; and in 1914 appointed Carriage & Wagon Superintendent at Swindon: Retired 30 November 1920.  Interesting that the locking mechanism seems to be a revenue matter rather than to do with safe transit of the animals.

 

[Northroader]

Cattle weren’t tethered after being loaded, they were just put in loose up to the required number, and left to their own devices. Looking at it from the point of view of a cow, I fancy you’d prefer standing fore and aft for the movement of the train, rather then sideways. They travelled standing up, the Irish traffic from Fishguard to Banbury stopped for the cattle to be watered at Severn Tunnel Junction, and any found lying down had to got out and checked for injuries.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If you are not using the partition because you have enough cattle to use the whole wagon, where do you stow the it?  Was there a position agaimst the end wall for this?

 

Yes, see this photo again and note the notch in the partition holder by the end wall, in this instance occupied by the partition:

 

 

[DY9165, embedded link to Derby Registers.]

 

Following the introduction of partitions, new medium and large cattle trucks were built 3 in or 4 in longer, to give space for the partition at the end while maintaining the statutory 18 ft inside length for large or 15 ft 6 in for medium trucks.

 

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Penning the beasts into one end of the wagon with the movabe partititon would put the load at that end,  Not exactly the "Load equally distibuted" that was seen as a good idea on other stock to provide smooth running.

 

Not as bad as (probably a good deal better than) loading long deals with the ends hanging several feet over the end of the wagon! A Hereford cow weighs around half a ton, according to a quick google, so one would need to be packing sixteen in to get to the load capacity of the truck. 

 

54 minutes ago, Welchester said:

This question of partitions sort of rang a bell, and a quick glance at the GWR wagon bible revealed that, because livestock owners were not averse to moving the partition to gain more space than they had paid for, two GWR employees devised and patented a locking mechanism, which appears to be this:

Improvements in, or relating to Cattle Trucks

 

I don't know if the Midland was using the same device but as noted above introduced a partition lock in 1905.

 

32 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Cattle weren’t tethered after being loaded, they were just put in loose up to the required number, and left to their own devices. Looking at it from the point of view of a cow, I fancy you’d prefer standing fore and aft for the movement of the train, rather then sideways. They travelled standing up, the Irish traffic from Fishguard to Banbury stopped for the cattle to be watered at Severn Tunnel Junction, and any found lying down had to got out and checked for injuries.

 

Stops for feed, water, and getting beasts up were standard practice, I gather. I think you have pretty well answered my question, as if they weren't tethered, the cattle were inevitably free to move around, which from my own observation I can say they are adept at doing in confined spaces, with little regard for the comfort or convenience of their peers.

 

But I am obliged to ask how you know.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Compound2632

[kevinlms]

16 hours ago, magmouse said:

All mod cons here - hay racks and water troughs, as well as securing points for tethering animals. The implication of the troughs and hay racks is the animals cattle face the end of the wagon, not the side. The wheelbase is curiously short in the drawings.

 

Nick.

Perhaps consideration should be given to similarly equipping the tube?

[Michael Hodgson]

No hay racks or water troughs on the tube, but some of the stations smell no better than a used cattle wagon, thanks to late night passengers.  I remember seeing a notice on a box of engineers' equipment stored on the platform at Moorgate advising passengers that it was dangerous to relieve themselves ... in the vicinty of the live rail.

[Wickham Green too]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

... youngest and least experienced of the porters, the strapper.

... and, presumably, a strapping lad ??!? 

[moore43grm]

Pack them in !

Photo found on a face book page

[Compound2632]

There's a good deal of characteristic milling around going on there.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Compound2632

[Mallard60022]

Plenty of 'moo'ving about. 

You lot got me thinking now about Circus Trains and those loads! I have read about the reinforced Van for an Elephant. 

Giraffe Car anyone?

P

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Giraffe Car anyone?

 

I'll duck that one but if you're not careful I'll give you chapter and verse on Midland Railway rates and conditions for elephants.

[Tom Burnham]

There was a legal case in 1928 about 7 store bullocks sent from Tonbridge to Tenterden (K&ESR) - on arrival one of them was found to have a broken leg and had to be slaughtered. 
"They were... put on rail in a small truck.  He [the sender] inspected them and found them all right.

"His Honour asked if they were not crowded in a small truck.

"Witness replied no, because they were not three-year-old animals."

The case against the Southern Railway was dismissed as the stationmaster at Headcorn gave evidence that he had looked at the cattle when the truck was handed over to the K&ESR and they were all right then.

So a small truck would be expected to take 7 young bullocks, but not older/larger cattle.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

So a small truck would be expected to take 7 young bullocks, but not older/larger cattle.

 

By 1928 a "small truck" would undoubtedly have been a large truck with the partition in the "small" position, reducing the length to 13 ft 6 in (or thereabouts). The Midland (for instance) last built any small trucks in 1877.

 

I take it you mean, not as many as seven older or larger beasts.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Compound2632

[The Johnster]

So, the upshot for now is that we reckon that the beasts were not tightly compressed in their partitioned areas in the wagons, and generally coped with the bumps and lurches in transit, so were presumably able to turn around and make their own way out of the vans, which answers the OP's original question.  The partitions were to do with revenue and keeping bulls separated, not to hold the beasts up while the train was in motion, and by and large they didn't object strongly.  Regulations demanded that they were watered and fed, and presumably excersised at intervals on their journeys, and the vans hosed down and new straw provided, and I remember the fairly extensive cattle dock at Severn Tunnel that was used for up trains from Fishguard.  The Irish ferry ports had accommodation for them as well, into which they were walked from the ships, and at which they were examined by a vet before being loaded on to the trains.  The beasts probably thought the train was luxury after being thrown around a rough Irish sea crossing!

 

It must have worked pretty well, or it wouldn't have been done; apart from the welfare of the beasts they were a valuable cargo that would need to arrive at their destination in good condition.  Livestock trains were class C in terms of signalling priority, well up in the pecking order.

 

Post-Beeching, the railway, now relieved of it's common carrier obligations and the concomittant government set rates, serially dumped traffic that it found onerous and not compatible with the fast block trains concept, and livestock, pigeons, horseboxes, and eventually the fish traffic and others, were abandoned and given to the road hauliers, who were happy to take them on.  Wagon load or part-load traffic also did not fit in with the block concept, resulting in the closure of local goods yards (most of which had cattle docks) and the hiving off of the main hubs to NCL.  Railfreight was orignially intended to recover some of this traffic, with indifferent results.  This suggests that it was not thought that livestock was a profitable business for the railway to be in for various reasons, even as block trains from the ferry ports.  The reasons are, I submit, a subject for a different debate.

Edited March 9, 2023 by The Johnster

[Northroader]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But I am obliged to ask how you know.

Well, back in the sixties, I was in the Divisional office at Cardiff, and looked at the control log for the previous 24 hours. (I was on the loco maintenance side, and it was always a vale of tears with the breakdowns) If a cattle special was running, STJ always had to report any problems encountered.

To add to Johnsters previous comments, the other aspect of moving cattle by rail was that refrigerated road transport had been developed. It was far simpler and cheaper to do the slaughtering near the origins, and take the carcasses closely packed and chilled straight to Smithfield or wherever with ro-ro ferries as the seventies came in.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Northroader

[Wickham Green too]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

By 1928 a "small truck" would undoubtedly have been a large truck with the partition in the "small" position, reducing the length to 13 ft 6 in (or thereabouts). ...

Yes, we know the Midland abandoned Cattle Truck Class quite early - but other railways weren't so forward thinking. The GWR built their "small" W3 diagram in 1888, for instance, and Peter Tatlow's LNER Wagons Vol.1 shows that were three "medium'' ex GCR wagons in traffic - nominally at least - on 31/12/47 !

[Michael Hodgson]

I'm glad us townies don't have to work out how to put a cow into reverse to unload it 😵

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

... and, presumably, a strapping lad ??!? 

 

Possibly, a strapping lad strapper who strapped, with straps.  My advice would be not to Google 'strapping lad with leather straps', though (my eyes, my beautiful eyes...).

 

52 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I'm glad us townies don't have to work out how to put a cow into reverse to unload it 😵

 

But we did, back in the day, some of us worked at urban goods depots where the beasts were unloaded prior to being taken to the local abbatoir that supplied the local butchers and other food industry customers.  Next door to the abbattoir would be a glue factory, and if the wind was in the wrong direction you knew about it!  There was one In Bristol just where a brake van would come to rest on the down main if you were held at the signal at North Somerset Jc, by East Depot, oh what fun that was in the hot summer of 1976...

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I'm glad us townies don't have to work out how to put a cow into reverse to unload it 😵

Could only go one way or the udder i guess.