Grouping-Era Exceptional Loads

[AlfaZagato]

Would grouping-era exceptional loads ever be tendered across multiple lines?  If so, which company would furnish the wagon - the origin railway or the delivering railway?

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, AlfaZagato said:

Would grouping-era exceptional loads ever be tendered across multiple lines?  If so, which company would furnish the wagon - the origin railway or the delivering railway?

 

Grouping era and pre-grouping era, same difference. Yes, of course, else how are those armour plates to get from Sheffield (Midland Railway) to Barrow (Furness Railway) to build those battleships? (For instance.)

 

In this case, the Midland supplied the armour plate wagons, being both the line on which the traffic originated and the line over which the greater portion of the journey was undertaken. I don't know enough about Furness Railway special wagons (i.e. zero) to know if that company had any wagons suitable for the traffic.

 

In some cases, the originating company would have had to hire suitable wagons from another company, if it had none available itself.

 

The financial side of this would be processed in the usual way by the Railway Clearing House, as for any other wagon consigned through to a "foreign" line.

[AlfaZagato]

OK, thank you.   Trying to justify Bygone Wagons' big Crocodiles.   I've always been a GWR fan, but my power right now is broadly LMS.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, AlfaZagato said:

OK, thank you.   Trying to justify Bygone Wagons' big Crocodiles.   I've always been a GWR fan, but my power right now is broadly LMS.

 

All you need is a plausible back-story!

[Michael Hodgson]

Detailed planning was necessary for exceptional loads and this was more complex than merely finding a wagon and a timetable slot.  They had to calculate how to ensure that the load would avoid fouling any lineside structure and would not endanger trains running on other lines.  This might include slewing the load where overhang was an issue or using a particular track between two places, so they would not be allowed to deviate from the planned route.   Instructions were drawn up accordingly and issued to relevant people; the loads would generally be accompanied by an inspector.

 

Special Block Bell codes for out of gauge loads existed but were not consistent between different companies.  If the opposite line needed to be blocked to other trafffic, special bell codes had to be offered forward as far as necessary to reach a place where they could allow other trains to pass, or for the special to be shunted clear.

 

Sometimes out of gauge trains had to run on the wrong line in order clear some obstacle; the engine would first uncouple from the special and run forward on the right line to the place the special was planned to regain the right line. and it then returned to its train on that opposite line collecting Wrong Line Order forms for use by the special.

[LMS2968]

The original distance between the Liverpool & Manchester Railways Up and Down lines was 4' 8 1.2", reportedly to allow wide loads to run along the centre. What happened when the came to pointwork isn't explained, but wide loads were envisaged in the 1820s.

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Detailed planning was necessary for exceptional loads and this was more complex than merely finding a wagon and a timetable slot. 

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of Midland Railway Study Centre item 18677. A search of the catalogue will turn up numerous similar STNs.]

[The Johnster]

There is a British Transport Film showing an out-of-gauge load being taken up the Blaenau Ffestiniog Branch, a transformer in connection with the pumped storage scheme that flooded the Ffestiniog's Moelwyn Tunnel in the 50s.  4F and a Sunday Posession of the entire branch.  This illustrates the jiggerpokery needed to get the out-of-gauge lump up the branch to the site where it is transferrred to road transport, moving it sideways to clear bridge abutments and other obstacles.  My impression is that modelling some of these shenannigans would be challenging, and would have to be the subject of the entire layout...

 

A load on a crocodile/bogie well, trestrol, or lowmac is much more practicable, these wagons being designed to carry loads that would be out-of-gauge if carried on normal wagons, but are within the loading gauge when properly secured on these specialist vehicles.  The film shows the use of carrying bogies, separate from each other and meaning that the load becomes, in a sense, an integral part of a 'wagon' made up of the load as the 'body' and the carrying bogies.  A crocodile loaded with a large object that it carries is a slightly different thing.

 

It's load can still be out-of-gauge of course, and wrong line working of the sort Mike Hodgson describes may be needed, as may temporary closures of the opposite running line, but in modelling terms this is much less challenging.  You load may be delivered to any goods yard with the facilities to off-load it from the wagon, or if these are unavailable specialist equipment may be hired in for the off-load.  Cranes, winches, packing, jacks, that sort of thing, possibly a job for a Baccy 75ton breakdown crane... 

 

But finding a back story for such a load on a regular basis is a bit more problematic.  A heavy engineering concern might regularly send such stuff out on a regular basis, but the example quoted, steel plates to Barrow-in-Furness from Sheffield, will happen over a few weeks until the shipyard has a stock of plates neccessary for the ship being built, and then doesn't order any more for a couple months until the next ship is being built.  The manufacturer in Sheffield may be supplying shipyards on the Clyde, Tyne, Birkenhead, naval yards at Plymouth, Rosyth, Portsmouth, Pembroke Dock, and others, so such traffic will be leaving it on a more regular basis, maybe even daily.  A local marshalling yard will be the collection point for the specialist wagons needed, and

 

Boilers are another common load for trestrols and crocodiles, and again, the delivery of a large boiler, or a number of them for a big ship, is never going to be a daily or even weekly event, but the dispatch of them from the boilermakers to different locations might be.  The wagons will be supplied by the railway company which the manufacturer's siding is connected to, and, as specialist wagons 'not in common use', will be returned to the owning company asap; a return load would be very unlikely and there will very likely be a standing instruction or a branding on the wagon stating the place it is to be returned to.

 

Most items of heavy engineering can be dissassembled, broken down into smaller parts for transport, and items that cannot be carried within the loading gauge are very rare.  Those that cannot be carried at all need to be built in situ. 

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

the example quoted, steel plates to Barrow-in-Furness from Sheffield, will happen over a few weeks until the shipyard has a stock of plates neccessary for the ship being built, and then doesn't order any more for a couple months until the next ship is being built.  The manufacturer in Sheffield may be supplying shipyards on the Clyde, Tyne, Birkenhead, naval yards at Plymouth, Rosyth, Portsmouth, Pembroke Dock, and others, so such traffic will be leaving it on a more regular basis, maybe even daily. 

 

I have the impression, from the number of STNs that survive, that the conveyance of out-of-gauge plates from Sheffield to Barrow* was relatively infrequent - not every Sunday. I expect most armour plates were of sizes that could be carried comfortably with the loading gauge. Otherwise it would become very expensive to transport them. This must have been a consideration the naval architects were well aware of.

 

*About 15 or so from 1907 - 1913 and a smaller number, Sheffield to Scotstoun.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Compound2632

[AlfaZagato]

Thanks to all of you for the information and suggestions.   I was mostly looking for justification for the big Crocodiles behind my LMS power.   I'll probably commit to one of the wagons when budget allows. 

 

I don't have a layout myself, yet.   I mostly run on either our club's host's layout, or our club layout itself.  We do have one tunnel, plus a couple of road overbridges.   May end up being a display piece.

[The Johnster]

A heavy-industry display piece based around the crocodile and it’s load might be interesting. 

  

Edited March 28, 2023 by The Johnster

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, AlfaZagato said:

I don't have a layout myself, yet.   I mostly run on either our club's host's layout, or our club layout itself.  We do have one tunnel, plus a couple of road overbridges.   May end up being a display piece.

 

Looks like there's scope there to draw up an STN...

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

... I expect most armour plates were of sizes that could be carried comfortably with the loading gauge. ...

Indeed - look an LMS armour plate wagon and it's just a chunky bogie flat with no well or trestles so intended for nothing much wider than the 8'3'' deck.

[AlfaZagato]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Looks like there's scope there to draw up an STN...

What is an STN?

 

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A heavy-industry display piece based around the crocodile and it’s load might be interesting. 

  

For that, I might consider doing that insane LNER job.  The big cantilever one.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, AlfaZagato said:

What is an STN?

 

Special Traffic Notice, like the Midland one from 1911 that I posted upthread.

[AlfaZagato]

OK, thank you.

 

I'm also guessing, brakes and locos swapped at handover?

Edited March 28, 2023 by AlfaZagato
incomplete thoughts

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, AlfaZagato said:

I'm also guessing, brakes and locos swapped at handover?

 

Yes, undoubtedly.

[Wickham Green too]

.... except, perhaps, on the odd occasion that the train crew had route knowledge sufficiently far into 'foreign' territory ??!?

[Morello Cherry]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of Midland Railway Study Centre item 18677. A search of the catalogue will turn up numerous similar STNs.]

 

Something that strikes me (maybe I am missing it), but while there are very clear instructions as to where it is to run, there don't seem to be any instructions for stabling it at Hunslet Station Jnc for three hours. I don't know what the layout of Hunslet Station Jnc was but it clearly couldn't be parked up in any old siding.

[The Stationmaster]

52 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

Something that strikes me (maybe I am missing it), but while there are very clear instructions as to where it is to run, there don't seem to be any instructions for stabling it at Hunslet Station Jnc for three hours. I don't know what the layout of Hunslet Station Jnc was but it clearly couldn't be parked up in any old siding.

Normal procedure in later years was only to specify restrictions for running lines.  Restrictions only mattered in sidings - assuming in this case that it was shunted off the running line - if there were any particular problems at that location otherwise the Inspector in charge of the movement would ensure it was stabled safely.

 

Interesting to note that apparently back then there were either no telegraphic codewords for O/O/G loads although most of them wouldn't have been  necessary in this case.    In fact because the only gauge limitation is the off-centre maximum height no other restrictions were probably necessary.   Codewords relating to height restrictions don't in any case seem to have been introduced until 1932 (according to a note in my copy of the telegraphic codes book).

 

In later years as much use as possible was made of the codewords in Notice items for O/O/G loads as it saved lots of words, and time, when putting together the Notice item

[62613]

On 28/03/2023 at 14:53, Compound2632 said:

 

I have the impression, from the number of STNs that survive, that the conveyance of out-of-gauge plates from Sheffield to Barrow* was relatively infrequent - not every Sunday. I expect most armour plates were of sizes that could be carried comfortably with the loading gauge. Otherwise it would become very expensive to transport them. This must have been a consideration the naval architects were well aware of.

 

*About 15 or so from 1907 - 1913 and a smaller number, Sheffield to Scotstoun.

My reference (British Warships of World War 1, by Dittmar and Colledge) gives only one R.N. Dreadnought battleship built by Vickers in Barrow; HMS Emperor of India, an Iron Duke class battleship, launched in 1913, and no other armoured ships at all. So unless it was for a foreign navy, I can't think what it was for.

 

Others building there at that time were the Japanese battlecruiser Kongo, and the Ottoman battleship which became HMS Erin.

Edited March 30, 2023 by 62613
Additional information

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

.... except, perhaps, on the odd occasion that the train crew had route knowledge sufficiently far into 'foreign' territory ??!?

 

The loco and brake van would come off at the normal changeover point, which might be some distance into the next company's territory, irrespective of the crew's route knowledge, even Saltley men.  In any case drivers' and guards' route knowledge may not always co-incide in the days when guards booked on at goods yards not loco depots (pre-1969 single-manning agreement with the unions).  Post-nationalisation arrangements could be different, as locos and brakevans were now 'pool', at least in theory, with working through of that sort being more common, but the traditional methods survived as well; a proposed OOG movement would likely use the same format of STN as had been used previously for similar movements.

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by The Johnster

[DCB]

On 28/03/2023 at 15:05, AlfaZagato said:

Thanks to all of you for the information and suggestions.   I was mostly looking for justification for the big Crocodiles behind my LMS power.   I'll probably commit to one of the wagons when budget allows. 

 

I don't have a layout myself, yet.   I mostly run on either our club's host's layout, or our club layout itself.  We do have one tunnel, plus a couple of road overbridges.   May end up being a display piece.

If you need an excuse to run a big crocodile or similar run it empty returning to its home region as a not out of gauge load on an ordinary un fitted freight or have a heavy but within gauge load,  otherwise wait for Bachmann or DCC concepts to come up with 00 scale automorons who can take down ground signals and other inconvenient bits and bobs to let your outsize load ease through at walking speed.

Edited March 30, 2023 by DCB

[Wickham Green too]

Or you can opt for something that probably is ( just ) within the loading gauge : - 

 

Strathdearn : 23/8/74

[AlfaZagato]

Nice cap, @Wickham Green too.  I had similar ideas for my continental stock, where our club layout bears catenary.  Lima's old Schnabel will get around that layout without issue.