Great Central Dieselisation - What if?

[lather]

So one of those intriguing "what if" questions has been rattling around my head this past few days, and I was wondering what other folks thought about it.

 

The Great Central London Extension lines remained pretty much exclusively steam territory right up to closure. Yes, I know that they used DMUs for the Rugby to Nottingham services after closure south of there - I'm talking about when they could run right through from London up to 1966...

 

What I was thinking/wondering was, if diesels had made more of an in-road into the line's working, as they did on the Midland Main Line where most express passenger services went over to diesel-haulage around 1962, what classes would you have seen on the line?

 

Given that Class 31s worked Peterborough to Leicester services on the MML, would it have been logical to have seen them also working Sheffield to Leicester services on the GCR line? And what about the Tinsley/Barrow Hill -based Class 17s and 20s - would you have seen them also working the line south to Nottingham or Leicester? And what about the Tinsley-based Class 37s?

 

As the south end of the line is more Midland Region territory, would Peaks have made appearances on the expresses, or would Class 47s have been more likely? Or maybe Class 40s, given that the southern end of the line is close to the WCML, and the northern end is in the Eastern Region, both EE Type 4 territory?... And what about the stopping passenger and goods services, would Derby Type 2s have been likely on those?

 

Thoughts/opinions, anyone?

[Dava]

It’s a bit irrelevant as all the LMR wanted to do was run down the GCR and close it so there was no incentive to invest in dieselisation. Thus the use of end of life Royal Scots and Black Fives.. 
 

Dava

[dave75]

It did start to happen Darnall 37s on the cross country trains,including  Swindon-York mail,and York-Poole/Bournemouth  with 47s in the last months.

Class 24s stood in for failed steam engines on the southern section in the final years. Some great images of these workings in robothams On Great Central Lines.

[pH]

11 minutes ago, dave75 said:

It did start to happen Darnall 37s on the cross country trains,including  Swindon-York mail,and York-Poole/Bournemouth …

Which could then hand those trains over to steam power. I saw D6811, by then allocated to Tinsley, being replaced at Banbury on the York-Bournemouth by Hall 4920 in September 1965.

[30851]

 

There were diesels on the GC extension up to 1966. On the night trains you could regularly see class 24, 27, 30/31, 35, 37, 40 and 47. At least some of the Sheffield - Nottingham locals were diesel hauled before their end by 31, 37 and 47's from Tinsley. The most well-known diesel train was the York - Poole/Bournemouth which also had 31,37 and 47 - unless you are talking about 60/61 winter when it was a DMU to Banbury!

 

After 1966 I have seen pictures of classes 20, 25, 44 and 45 north of Nottingham.

 

 

Rob

 

 

 

[pH]

There was also the daily (?) service to Ruddington depot by reverse at Weekday Cross junction which ran after the line north of that junction was closed. I lived in West Bridgford for a short time in 1973/4 and would often see a train hauled by a Peak going south about 8-9 AM.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

There were plans for a diesel depot at Annesley, though that fell by the wayside.

[dave75]

54 minutes ago, 30851 said:

 

There were diesels on the GC extension up to 1966. On the night trains you could regularly see class 24, 27, 30/31, 35, 37, 40 and 47. At least some of the Sheffield - Nottingham locals were diesel hauled before their end by 31, 37 and 47's from Tinsley. The most well-known diesel train was the York - Poole/Bournemouth which also had 31,37 and 47 - unless you are talking about 60/61 winter when it was a DMU to Banbury!

 

After 1966 I have seen pictures of classes 20, 25, 44 and 45 north of Nottingham.

 

 

Rob

 

 

 

Did a Hymek ever make it as far a Leicester with a train from the WR?

[r08j88]

I have been contemplating a similar thought, more 80s/90s onwards along the London Extension

NSE days, I imaged the 117s being replaced by the 165s/166s to Aylesbury or even to Verney Junction.

Diesel Hauled to Rugby and beyond I assumed would be a mix of the 31s, 47s, or 50s, depending on where termination was Manchester, Sheffield

A more Modern Approach would be the Chiltern 165s and 67s & 68s, based on a what if they reopened the line as they intended to many years ago

Edited April 7, 2023 by r08j88

[rodent279]

34 minutes ago, dave75 said:

Did a Hymek ever make it as far a Leicester with a train from the WR?

I think a Hymek is recorded as reaching Sheffield,  but not sure whether via the GC. Of course, they were built on GC territory,  and I think if you trawl flickr/interwebnet you'll find a photographic record of Hymeks on delivery through Nottingham Vic.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

There were plans for a diesel depot at Annesley, though that fell by the wayside.

With all due respect to the place, Annesley always was a wayside sort of town !

[franciswilliamwebb]

The "What If" angle was something I thought a lot about for a GC layout that eventually fell victim to a house move.  My plan, as far as it got, was big on Peaks and Brush 4s👍

 

A nice burst of "What Was" from YouTube, some diesels amongst the steam...

 

[Davexoc]

If it had been kept open, then would we assume the junction at Grendon Underwood would also have been retained?

If so that could mean WR power running to and from Paddington could have been included. It would also have allowed avoidance of the Met. south of Amersham and still running into Marylebone via High Wycombe without using the single line Aylesbury - Princes Risborough line.

The Calvert landfill site certainly bought a mix of stock to the truncated line in the later years, and via Claydon LNE junction allowed the link between GC and WCML/MML into the '80s, and hopefully again in the near future once EWR and HS2 get completed.

[30851]

1 hour ago, dave75 said:

Did a Hymek ever make it as far a Leicester with a train from the WR?

 

Yes they did - but at night.

 

I found this note about the last night of the through trains ( from https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/41981679972 ). 
 

"After 44984 came off at Leicester D6800 took the train to Sheffield, unfortunately I don't know the identity of the EM1 or the 25 that worked 
forward from there. The train was 25 minutes late into Leicester so you may have seen the 2225 Swindon-York if it was running to time which 
arrived behind D7012 & was taken forward by 44984."

 

I have also seen other references to them being the regular loco's on these night trains.

 

Rob

 

[rodent279]

12 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I think a Hymek is recorded as reaching Sheffield,  but not sure whether via the GC. Of course, they were built on GC territory,  and I think if you trawl flickr/interwebnet you'll find a photographic record of Hymeks on delivery through Nottingham Vic.

Knew I'd seen it somewhere:-

Quote

Re: Diesels on the GC

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Post by 52D » Mon May 12, 2014 7:18 pm

I can give you an unusual class of diesel seen on the GC Hymek, delivered from Manchester down the GC to the GWR.

Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

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D2100

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Re: Diesels on the GC

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Post by D2100 » Mon May 12, 2014 8:51 pm

R. pike wrote:All pretty late in the day...

[pics snipped]

Late indeed - those pics will be Toton machines rather than Darnall ones, and some of the shots came up when Chris posed this query on MRF.

I've seen photos of 37's, 40's and 47's on the York-Bournemouth trains

Just to round out the picture, Darnall 31s (pedantically, 30s in their original form) also worked the York - Bournemouth on occasion. I dont recall hearing of 40s on the turn, though I think they did work GC route filling in turns when between Sheffield Pullman jobs.

Ian Fleming

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Re: Diesels on the GC

Quote

Post by robertcwp » Mon May 12, 2014 9:30 pm

Hymeks appeared on delivery runs from Beyer Peacock and also on the York-Swindon from Leicester Central southwards. There is a photo of one at Leicester Central in a book on Hymeks and I think there is also one at Leicester shed somewhere.

Here are two views of new Hymeks on their way to the WR:
D7021_Rugby_GC_2-2-62 by robertcwp, on Flickr
 

From LNER Encyclopaedia,  link here:-

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10077

 

Somewhere on YouTube there is ciné of a Hymek on delivery at Nottingham Victoria. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by rodent279

[The Stationmaster]

Oddly I think I probably travelled more miles on the GC behind diesels than behind steam although I have very limited memories of our early family trips apart from the awful station at Banbury.  But in later years I used the York Bournemouth on a number of occasions so it was almost always behind a Danall EE Type 3 from Sheffield to Banbury as had begun to work the train on a regular basis.  

 

And the only time I did the GC from end-t0-end ended up nehind an EE Type 4 after the second steam engine was replaced by the diesel at Leicester - it worked through to Manchester.  The first steam engine, an Annesley 'Royal Scot',  had spent 45 minutes at Aylesbury throwing out a good part of the fire and it was replaced - by then running well over an hour late - by a Black 5 at Woodford.  The Black 5 in fact ran pretty well, but was taken off for the diesel replacement at Leicester.   Stll over an hour late into Manchester, and on the night of Maundy Thursday/Good Friday so rather topical albeit 60 years ago.

[43110andyb]

Possible answer to the question here- 

 

what might have been!

[62613]

On 07/04/2023 at 21:00, franciswilliamwebb said:

The "What If" angle was something I thought a lot about for a GC layout that eventually fell victim to a house move.  My plan, as far as it got, was big on Peaks and Brush 4s👍

 

A nice burst of "What Was" from YouTube, some diesels amongst the steam...

 

In many ways, quite poignant.

[25kV]

The alternative "what if" for the GC would have seen the 1500V DC wires extended south from Sheffield - as I understand it the original plan was to build a total of 27 class 77s (EM2) to cover the whole London-Manchester service.  Alas... 

[rodent279]

27 minutes ago, 25kV said:

The alternative "what if" for the GC would have seen the 1500V DC wires extended south from Sheffield - as I understand it the original plan was to build a total of 27 class 77s (EM2) to cover the whole London-Manchester service.  Alas... 

Nice thought, but I think that London was never the ultimate aim of GC electrification.  I think Doncaster was the eastern extent, possibly Warrington in the west. Remember that the original justification for electrification was the heavy coal traffic, and the difficulties of working it with steam through the restricted bores of the original Woodhead tunnel. Had the coal traffic not existed, or the tunnels and gradients been easier, the electrification quite possibly would not have happened at all.

Had the ECML been electrified at 1500v, then the story may have been different, possibly EM2s would have then reached KX, York or Newcastle. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by rodent279

[Artless Bodger]

On 07/04/2023 at 21:00, franciswilliamwebb said:

The "What If" angle was something I thought a lot about for a GC layout that eventually fell victim to a house move.  My plan, as far as it got, was big on Peaks and Brush 4s👍

 

A nice burst of "What Was" from YouTube, some diesels amongst the steam...

 

Interesting to see palbrick wagons in one of the trains. Thanks for the link.

[franciswilliamwebb]

35 minutes ago, Artless Bodger said:

Interesting to see palbrick wagons in one of the trains. Thanks for the link.

 

Yes, I'd noticed a good run of those and I don't think even one of them had black end supports like the KR examples.

[adb968008]

An exercise in complete whatiffery…

 

GC doesnt close, and steam goes in the 1960’s, how do diesels take over…

mid 1970’s…

 

The 50’s might have moved over to the GC in 1976 extending life of the 52’s into the 1980’s.

Consolidation of Manchester Central to Piccadilly still happens.
 

1980’s…

The 55’s might have continued to c1985 transferring to the GC in 1981 releasing the 50’s later to the WR.

HSTs eventually replacing the Westerns amore gradually until about 1985.

Class 40’s might have lasted a few more years on the LMR, until c1990 allowing 37/45’s to be used on the GC.

Marylebone platforms and sidings are not rationalised.

GCR remains the default route for footexs to Wembley.

Foster Yeoman buys redundant Westerns, meaning the 59 and 66 dont happen.
 

1990’s.

 

The class 76/77’s would be withdrawn by 1990, with the 1500v being converted to AC and extended to Doncaster, and Sheffield upto Leeds, to give a 25kv transpenine route to coincide with ECML electrification. Piccadilly getting class 91 and mk4’s to KX, and Leeds/Sheffield  getting class 90 and mk3’s from Euston both via woodhead.

Class 81/85 take over Class 76 operations.

 

XC services from Birmingham to Newcastle can now be AC throughout, via Manchester with 86’s and additional DVTs constructed.

 

We may have had more than 31 x class 37/4’s, and see class 50’s returning from WoE or the 47/8’s that would have been XC run from London Marylebone north instead.

 

class 38 and 49 freight diesels are built.

 

 

2000’s

 

More class 86/6’s take over from 81/85’s.
Nothing goes to Bulgaria.

plan to Electrify down to Rugby, as a side project ahead of Project Rio, sees large stretches of 100mph on the GCR.

By close of production 120 class 90’s and 40 class 91’s are built in total. Many 90’s are Freight spec.

 

GC becomes an Alternative route for freight off the wcml up GCR to Manchester, Leeds or Doncaster AC throughout.

WCML from Euston sees greater use of High speed intercity workings from Rugby upto Sheffield / Leeds and Manchester using now spare class 87’s after wcml upgrade.

Marylebone concentrates on Birmingham / Rugby and Leicester services taking pressure off MML at St Pancras following Eurostar rebuild.

Both GC and MML voyagers / 180s are used.

 

2010’s 

Chiltern 68’s never happened.

92’s and 90’s take over 86/6s.. less are stored, though Coal declines.

Voyagers / 180’s do the long distance services.

Rugby to Marylebone / Paddington inc lines to Greenford, Acton Mainline to Willesdon are AC.

 

Grand Central trains runs services from NE to Marylebone via the east midlands.

Sections of GC upgraded to 125mph.

 

HS2 is not needed.

 

Class 66 is not needed, 56,58,60 replaced by an new AC / Battery freight loco capable of 750v dc, and 25kv from Channel tunnel to GWML, WCML, GCR, ECML via many cross london routes, and via crossover lines joining at Rugby, Sheffield with a plan for MML and S&C electrification.

 

Units like 317/319/350/365/379 have a “full service life” future.

 

 

2020’s

800’s built to to run long distance from Marylebone replace Voyagers/lhcs

800’s take over XC operations from LHCS with 86/87’s.
 

Cash saved on HS2 upgrades MML and S&C and other TPE routes to Electrification throughout.

Edited April 17, 2023 by adb968008

[Northmoor]

On 17/04/2023 at 23:22, adb968008 said:

The 50’s might have moved over to the GC in 1976 extending life of the 52’s into the 1980’s.

 

Foster Yeoman buys redundant Westerns, meaning the 59 and 66 dont happen.
 

Class 66 is not needed

 

800’s take over XC operations from LHCS with 86/87’s.

Hey I know it's your Rule One and all - there's a huge amount of what you've described is completely plausible - but I'm detecting a few personal likes and dislikes.....

 

I would have thought that Westerns would have been more likely to transfer to the GC than the 50s, because as a less-than-top-link route, through services would have used the non-air conditioned Mk2s, at least during the summer.  But in the winter.....?  ETH was not an option in the Westerns; there was absolutely no space for a generator.  Probably more likely, considering some were already being sidelined by the early 80s recession, would be more 45/0s given ETH and hence converted to 45/1s.  Likewise, sorry but although I love Westerns too, they couldn't touch what 59s and 66s could do (they demonstrated less power at the rail than the 47s and of course had a nasty habit of going onto one engine....).

 

66s would still be needed early this century as coal traffic was still abundant and you can't easily load coal hoppers or ISO containers with an overhead wire in the way (yes, I know the Norwegians or someone does do it).  

 

I love 86s and 87s too but by the early 2020s (now), the 87s are 50 years old and the 86s nearly 60.  Operating them on front-line high speed traffic for that many years is stretching credulity.  Unless of course these locos are completely rebuilt into something barely recognisable like the Class 69, but that's a whole new can of What-iffery.

[rodent279]

17 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I love 86s and 87s too but by the early 2020s (now), the 87s are 50 years old and the 86s nearly 60.  Operating them on front-line high speed traffic for that many years is stretching credulity.

Fair point, however, I offer as evidence:-

 

1) the Swiss Ae 4/7 electrics, some of which were in frontline service from the 1930's to the early 1990's, although admittedly not the sort of high speed frontline service that the WCML demanded.

 

2) the Italian E424/428 & E626/636 family, which likewise were in frontline service from the 1930's/1940's until the early 2000's. Again, not the sort of high speed service of the WCML, but they were seen on heavy international trains to the end.

 

3) the various SR EPB derived EMU's, some of which lasted the thick end of 50 years.