Electrification at a terminus station

[luckymucklebackit]

When Glasgow Central was wired in the early 1960s, platforms 3-13 were all wired.  The main WCML express platforms, 1 and 2 did not get wired until the WCML electrification in the early 1970s.

 

Jim

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, luckymucklebackit said:

When Glasgow Central was wired in the early 1960s, platforms 3-13 were all wired.  The main WCML express platforms, 1 and 2 did not get wired until the WCML electrification in the early 1970s.

 

Jim

Ye gods have the SNP been in power that long - we'll wire any lines that head into Scotland, the sassenachs can pay for their oon 😁

[caradoc]

16 hours ago, luckymucklebackit said:

When Glasgow Central was wired in the early 1960s, platforms 3-13 were all wired.  The main WCML express platforms, 1 and 2 did not get wired until the WCML electrification in the early 1970s.

 

IIRC at Motherwell only the Hamilton Circle platforms, 3 and 4 were wired, 1 and 2 (again!) not being done until the WCML. 

 

[luckymucklebackit]

5 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

IIRC at Motherwell only the Hamilton Circle platforms, 3 and 4 were wired, 1 and 2 (again!) not being done until the WCML. 

 

 

Correct, and semaphore signals were also retained!

 

Jim

[melmerby]

21 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Ye gods have the SNP been in power that long - we'll wire any lines that head into Scotland, the sassenachs can pay for their oon 😁

Apparently, so they can't be accused of adopting anything English, when (😄) HS2 reaches the border, the track will change to 5' 6" gauge and the electrification will be 9. 8kV 27Hz three phase.😁

 

[icn]

On 14/04/2023 at 18:50, The Stationmaster said:

The other system is much more fun to watch and is uased at places where trains can continue t run at speed with no need to stop,  There is a neutral section between the two systems and as a train approaches the loco lowers its pantograph for that system then raises its pantograph for the new system while in the neutral section - lots of nice blue flashes as the pan carbons break and remake contact.   Even more spectacular when SNCB 3kv dc overhead is involved.  Some multi-system trains use the same pantograph for more than one system while others have a different pantograph for each system (but no more than two pans as far as I've ever seen).

3 different pans isn't uncommon - or in fact required - on stock that can operate Germany-Switzerland-Italy. 1950mm Carbon for Germany (and Austria and a few others), 1450mm Carbon for Switzerland, 1450mm Copper for Italy - although that's for only 2 different power systems. On the Giruno I think they decided on two 1950mm pans and one of each of the 1450mms - and I imagine it's similar on most locos because they spend more time in Germany? Although since these locos carry 4 pantographs it's entirely possible they have 4 different variants after all. On the other hand, some of the Swiss network around Basel is built to be 1450/1950mm compatible allowing German equipment to reach some stations or yards without additional pantographs, but that's only a geometry change again without a power system change.

 

As a bonus, there's now a new 1600mm standard that's supposed to be used for new construction at least for transeuropean lines (as in: lines need to be built compatible with both 1900mm and 1600mm trains), but I don't know if any vehicles use that - I imagine it's a question of waiting for the infrastructure to be adapted first, and at some point new rolling stock can start using it.

[melmerby]

The BLS Cargo Class 187 Traxx has 4 pantographs. The BLS Cargo Class 475 Vectron also has 4 and 4 voltage capability.

[Morello Cherry]

In terms of interesting multiple voltage stations - what about Camden Road?

 

 

 

 

Can't be many places where you can have a 90 on 3rd rail lines :)

[jim.snowdon]

6 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

Can't be many places where you can have a 90 on 3rd rail lines :)

And that wasn't for very long either, as the North London Line went purely AC except for the last section between Acton Central and Richmond.

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by jim.snowdon

[Edwin_m]

10 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

In terms of interesting multiple voltage stations - what about Camden Road?

 

Can't be many places where you can have a 90 on 3rd rail lines :)

I assume 90s would have been permitted to work into the dual-electrified platforms at Euston.  Intercity push-pull formations were too long to go into these platforms but I think would have passed over short sections of the dual-electrified approach tracks.

[Flying Pig]

22 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

In terms of interesting multiple voltage stations - what about Camden Road?

 

Does anyone know when the AC overhead was added to the North London lines and how far it extended, as the Web is rather vague on the matter?  It seems from the first photo that the route to Willesden was not originally included.

[Morello Cherry]

I don't know. To add to the modelling variety. You also had Cravens on the Woolwich shuttle.

 

Plenty of changes. 3rd rail, overhead on platforms 3-4 but not 1-2, then platforms 3-4 taken out and the overhead moved to platforms 1-2 and then recently the 3rd rail taken out.

 

 

It is sort of place that if you modelled as a fictional location people would roll their eyes at the plausibility of it.

[jim.snowdon]

13 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Does anyone know when the AC overhead was added to the North London lines and how far it extended, as the Web is rather vague on the matter?  It seems from the first photo that the route to Willesden was not originally included.

Can't quote you a date, but my understanding is that the original 25kV electrification was confined to the freight route between Primrose Hill and Stratford. The conversion of the routes via Willesden only came about with the later conversion of the North London Line as a whole for TfL's services, when the 378s took over everything.

[bécasse]

It is more complicated than that. The proposed Eurostar "north of London" services required 25kv electrification of part of the North London Line and, although I can't remember the precise details now, at least some of the necessary work was done. I presume that the existing 3rd rail electrification was insufficient for the Eurostars.

 

Vast sums of money were wasted on the proposed Eurostar NoL services. Proper research showed that there was even less of a viable market for them than there was for (London-originating) night services. The only route that might have just about broken even was a several times a day Birmingham-Paris service but proposals to revamp the WCML (for Voyagers) would have killed even that.

[keefer]

It may have been in the Railscene DVD covering the South-East but there was mention of an extra (possibly bi-directional) track, electrified at 25kV, being funded by/for the Freight sectors. I'm sure it was the NLL and may have been to get cross-London Freightliners off the busy mainlines. Trains would go to/from the WCML via Primrose Hill.

The capacity was there as most of the NLL was down to two tracks between Dalston and Camden Road.

Going very much from memory here, so I may have got things completely wrong!

EDIT: thinking about it may have been the 25kV electrification & re-signalling of the existing North track(s).

Edited May 22, 2023 by keefer

[Flying Pig]

23 minutes ago, keefer said:

It may have been in the Railscene DVD covering the South-East but there was mention of an extra (possibly bi-directional) track, electrified at 25kV, being funded by/for the Freight sectors. I'm sure it was the NLL and may have been to get cross-London Freightliners off the busy mainlines. Trains would go to/from the WCML via Primrose Hill.

The capacity was there as most of the NLL was down to two tracks between Dalston and Camden Road.

Going very much from memory here, so I may have got things completely wrong!

EDIT: thinking about it may have been the 25kV electrification & re-signalling of the existing North track(s).

 

The first of the three photos that @Morello Cherry posted above and the one of the Cravens unit in Camden Road station are both dated 4th October 1979, well before Sectorisation, and clearly show overhead electrification from Primrose Hill only, continuing through the northern pair of platforms only and onwards to the east.  It isn't clear whether the second pair of tracks has been reinstated much beyond the station though.

[Edwin_m]

4 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

The first of the three photos that @Morello Cherry posted above and the one of the Cravens unit in Camden Road station are both dated 4th October 1979, well before Sectorisation, and clearly show overhead electrification from Primrose Hill only, continuing through the northern pair of platforms only and onwards to the east.  It isn't clear whether the second pair of tracks has been reinstated much beyond the station though.

I seem to recall the original Euston electrification included a part of the NLL, presumably to allow freight trains to and from the docks to change locomotive.  

[Morello Cherry]

9 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

The first of the three photos that @Morello Cherry posted above and the one of the Cravens unit in Camden Road station are both dated 4th October 1979, well before Sectorisation, and clearly show overhead electrification from Primrose Hill only, continuing through the northern pair of platforms only and onwards to the east.  It isn't clear whether the second pair of tracks has been reinstated much beyond the station though.

 

 

I think I have found the answer in the caption to this photo:

 

 

A LMR 501 set approaches Camden Road Station passing Camden Road Junction box on a train from Richmond to Broad Street. The 25KV overhead electric remains from the 1965 scheme to electrify from the WCML at Chalk Farm to Maiden Lane for York Way Freightliner Terminal on the "Number 2" lines only. It was abandoned, together with the Freightliner terminal after a very short life. It was later removed and then later reinstalled to link the WCML with the GE mainline.

 

I am not sure if it was ever removed per se, I think when the 'number 2' lines were taken out of use c1986 based on these photos from 1985 and 1987 respectively, the wiring was moved across which would tie in with the GE electrification.

 

 

 

Do I get a biscuit?

Edited May 22, 2023 by Morello Cherry

[Flying Pig]

42 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

I am not sure if it was ever removed per se, I think when the 'number 2' lines were taken out of use c1986 based on these photos from 1985 and 1987 respectively, the wiring was moved across which would tie in with the GE electrification.

 

Someone agrees with you on this page (and may already have eaten your biscuit)

 

https://camdenhighline.medium.com/how-long-has-the-highline-been-disused-b3f8f99452ae

 

and this article says that the York Way FLT closed in 1986 (but were trains still electric hauled by that date?)

 

http://www.crht1837.org/join/draft-history-page/great-northern-railway/the-freightliner-initiativ

 

 

[keefer]

The NLL Wikipedia article gives various info on the scheme I was trying to remember:

"The AC electrification of the eastern part of the North London line uses the previously unelectrified northern pair of tracks, which were also partially singled at the same time."

In the mention of the Canonbury Curve: " It...was singled concurrent with the AC electrification of the eastern part of the North London line."

The 'South' pair of tracks were 630V DC for the Richmond-Broad St. then N. Woolwich but "When the trains were replaced a few years later by dual-voltage Class 313 trains, it became possible to use the overhead line equipment which had been added to parts of the line for the benefit of freight trains."

 

From another forum, I have found out that the Canonbury Curve was singled/wired in 1988 - so that's also when the (eastern) NLL wires went up for the benefit of AC-hauled freight.

Edited May 22, 2023 by keefer

[keefer]

YouTube video of Richmond-N.Woolwich in 1987 (says taken from a cl.501 but did these run concurrently with the 2EPBs?)

Linked to Camden Road West Jcn, where the line from the WCML via Primrose Hill comes in from the right. There is a 25kV portal on the junction and platform-mounted portals on the removed No.2 lines at Camden Rd.

From Camden Rd. there are obviously works to install the new 25kV catenary (supports in place, new signalling changes in progress as permission given to pass signals at danger and troughing lying trackside)

At 32:57 at Camden Road East Jcn, a single line goes off to the left with supports while the 'DC' lines continue without. Further on, it can be seen that the posts have registration arms etc fitted

At 34:58 after Caledonian Road & Barnsbury there is only one (North) track in place, which is in the process of 25kV electrification.

At 40:42 the DC lines cut across to the North lines (former Dalston West Jcn - DC lines into Broad St. having been removed) - 4 lines into 2. (driver remarks these lines 'with wires up' are for Freightliners). From Dalston Kingsland onwards, wires are up.

At 42:32 there is a facing crossover just before the new Navarino Rd. Jcn. which leads into the Graham Rd. curve (to Liverpool St.)

All-in-all, this must be the works i referred to initially - install 25kV onto the NLL from the Primrose Hill line using one of the (rarely) used North tracks (bi-di signalling) etc. etc. to allow Electric-hauled freight through to Stratford.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by keefer

[Natalie]

On 21/04/2023 at 23:13, Morello Cherry said:

 

Interestingly I came across this plan for Portsmouth and Southsea on @Natalie's flickr which shows something similar. If I am reading it right, it looks like platforms 3-5 are electrified and 1-2 aren't. (I am not sure when it dates from).

 

 

My understanding of the plan is the same as yours. I have updated the description to the Flickr image giving details of what it actually is. It is from a set of SR Traffic Control Diagrams located currently in TNA, Kew which although not dated have a covering letter dated November 1947.

 

The plan is a small section of the Southern Division Area No 3 map. I have the rest of it and the other Southern areas too. I also have some from the other divisions if of interest.

 

One point of possible interest is that this plan shows Portsmouth (was Town) Loco yard which was later removed to make way for some stabling sidings which may well have had various elements of electrification installed. I think I have copies of a later control diagram which should include the stabling sidings. Portsmouth Town / & Southsea is/ has been an interesting station track and signalling wise of which a lot of the BoT Inspection files and plans are thankfully saved for us at TNA Kew.

 

Potentially still on topic are a few more locations which might be worth exploring. At Wimbledon and Richmond the bay platforms are electrified for both 3rd and 4th rail dc as a result of sharing the station with LU services. The return 4th rail in these cases I believe is bonded to the running rails to allow dual use of the line. The services at both stations tend to use separate platforms possibly for passenger convenience. 

 

Let us not forget the LBSCR ac overhead system at Victoria and London Bridge that potentially shared track with the SECR dc 3rd rail especially towards the end when the SR converted it all to dc 3rd rail.

 

Going back to Manchester Piccadily I have photted the ohle wiring diagrams relating to the 25kv ac system. These again are in Kew. What is of interest is what the plans show is there is continuous wiring between the ac and dc systems with only an insulator separating them electrically. 

 

An interesting thread indeed.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Natalie

[phil-b259]

9 hours ago, keefer said:

 

 

From another forum, I have found out that the Canonbury Curve was singled/wired in 1988 - so that's also when the (eastern) NLL wires went up for the benefit of AC-hauled freight.

 

The Cannonbury curve and parts of the northern pair of NLL tracks were singled to avoid having to do extensive (and expensive) gauge enhancement works to tunnels and bridges by putting the track in the middle of arched structures or allowing the lowering of the trackbed without impacting pier / retaining wall foundations

 

To accommodate the East London line extension however the NLL had to have a lot of structural works so that the northern pair of tracks could be returned to the double track format

[The Lurker]

11 hours ago, Natalie said:

 

 

Let us not forget the LBSCR ac overhead system at Victoria and London Bridge that potentially shared track with the SECR dc 3rd rail especially towards the end when the SR converted it all to dc 3rd rail.

 

 

This article which is stored on SREMG would suggest that you are quite right

 

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/LondonsElevatedElectric.pdf

 

Pages 7 and 8 deal with the end of the overhead electric system and replacement with third rail.

 

There's an equally interesting article from 1911 on SREMG on the overhead electrification in the first place but OT to this thread- or perhaps not as that will cover electrified and non-electrified lines at the same terminus

Edited May 23, 2023 by The Lurker

[jim.snowdon]

12 hours ago, Natalie said:

Potentially still on topic are a few more locations which might be worth exploring. At Wimbledon and Richmond the bay platforms are electrified for both 3rd and 4th rail dc as a result of sharing the station with LU services. The return 4th rail in these cases I believe is bonded to the running rails to allow dual use of the line. The services at both stations tend to use separate platforms possibly for passenger convenience. 

For all practical purposes the lines used by LU are considered as third rail electrification with an additional traction return rail to allow connection with LU's negative shoes.

 

There is one location where genuine third and fourth rail electrification sit side by side, and that is at Queens Park, on the Watford DC Lines. All four tracks have third and fourth rails, but only on the centre pair and in the carriage shed, used exclusively by LU, are the fourth rails actually at a negative potential. The third/fourth rail section gap is at the country end of the through roads in the carriage shed.