8 plank wagon (ex PO) in BR days - what loads?

[Metr0Land]

What loads would be in these wagons in BR days?  I presume the difference in say 5 planks and 8 planks has to be for a reason?

[petethemole]

Private owner 8 plank wagons would mainly have been built for mineral traffic, predominantly coal and coke.  This use continued after nationalisation.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, petethemole said:

Private owner 8 plank wagons would mainly have been built for mineral traffic, predominantly coal and coke.  This use continued after nationalisation.

.... the majority of coal wagons would have been seven- rather than eight-plank. Coke, being lighter, either had larger wagons or 7/8 plankers with extra boards to contain a greater volume.

[gwrrob]

What loads were the SR 8 planks used for as modelled by the new Rapido wagon.

[Fat Controller]

21 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

What loads were the SR 8 planks used for as modelled by the new Rapido wagon.

Anything and everything that might have been carried in a merchandise open; the difference with the ex-PO 8-plank minerals would have been the continuous planks above the doors, which would make loading and unloading more difficult. The ex-SR types had 'cupboard' doors instead, which eliminated the problem.

[Wickham Green too]

BUT - the Southern considered the 9' wheelbase ones to be mineral wagons and 10' ones to be merchandise ........ though I guess they got mixed on all traffic - not least with the 9'6'' SECR ones and 10'6'' LSWR ones in the same fleet.

[Sitham Yard]

20 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Anything and everything that might have been carried in a merchandise open; the difference with the ex-PO 8-plank minerals would have been the continuous planks above the doors, which would make loading and unloading more difficult. The ex-SR types had 'cupboard' doors instead, which eliminated the problem.

My understanding, from reading the standard books on the subject, is that the SR and before it the LSWR and SECR, originally built 8 plank wagons as high capacity goods wagons (more carrying capacity for not much more tare weight). However as they did not have much mineral traffic originating within their area, these wagons could be dual purpose to carry whatever mineral traffic was on offer. The SR had relatively few wagons that were specifically mineral wagons.   

 

By BR days the fitted SR 8 plank wagons tended to be used for goods traffic and unfitted for mineral.

 

The ex PO mineral wagons (7 or 8 plank depending on width of top planks) and similar ex LMS, LNER & SR could be used for goods traffic. However not only did the continuous planks cause problems, as mentioned above, but any load that could move around in the wagon could damage or burst through the end door if fitted. Any load in an end door wagon that was too long to go on the wagon floor had to rest on the hinge bar so the end of the load pressed against the fixed end of the wagon.   

Andrew

[Aire Head]

3 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

What loads would be in these wagons in BR days?  I presume the difference in say 5 planks and 8 planks has to be for a reason?

 

7/8 Plank wagons are for lower density minerals such as coal/coke. 5 plank wagons were for higher density materials such as stone although this didn't preclude their use for coal. In BR days they would be mainly used for mineral traffic and be in a pretty shoddy condition. Like this 0 Gauge example I finished recently.

 

 

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

the majority of coal wagons would have been seven- rather than eight-plank.

 

8 Planks were popular with some of Yorkshire collieries where coal density could be lower.

 

1 hour ago, gwrrob said:

What loads were the SR 8 planks used for as modelled by the new Rapido wagon

 

Anything a typical merchandise vehicle could be used to carry, I've quite often seen images of them sheeted where they could be carrying anything. A lot of image also of them being used to carry coal.

 

44 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

though I guess they got mixed on all traffic -

 

Not unique to the Southern vehicles either certainly plenty of images of merchandise opens from the rest of the big four in mineral traffic use.

 

Another thing to consider with the Southern merchandise opens is that they weren't limited to the Southern railway and a significant amount of them being common user means they would turn up anywhere.

[jim.snowdon]

A characteristic difference between mineral and merchandise is in how the bodies are frames. The sides on mineral wagons are almost universally supported by forged iron/steel knees inside the body. On merchandise wagons, the body support stanchions/knees are always outside the body, where they will not obstruct the load. Having the ironwork inside a mineral wagon doesn't matter, as the load simply conforms to the space.

[The Johnster]

Another indicator is end and/or bottom discharge doors (shown post 1937 by white diagonal lines for end doors and white 'V' markings for bottom doors).  Not all mineral wagons had these, but no general merchandise wagons whatsoever had them.  A general merchandise open will have side doors that extend to the full height of the side, a mineral won't. 

[doilum]

If I may cross reference to my thread on lime cells: burnt lime would be denser than coal and the concensus was that it would be carried in 5 plank wagons. Did these have bottom doors, or were there some very small hopper wagons for this trade? The fact that the NER built covered lime cells means there must be wagons for the traffic. Or did they use 7 plank wagons half loaded?

 

[Aire Head]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Another indicator is end and/or bottom discharge doors (shown post 1937 by white diagonal lines for end doors and white 'V' markings for bottom doors).  Not all mineral wagons had these, but no general merchandise wagons whatsoever had them.  A general merchandise open will have side doors that extend to the full height of the side, a mineral won't. 

 

Midland Railway D663A were built for both mineral and merchandise traffic and as such they have bottom doors and full height side doors.

 

Many lasted into the 1950s and some even into 60s. They are easily identified by the vertical bracing up the side.

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Aire Head

[jim.snowdon]

18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A general merchandise open will have side doors that extend to the full height of the side, a mineral won't.

True of the later 12T 7-8plank minerals, but not of the older 10T 5 plank types, and ignoring the 12T minerals with top doors or lifting flaps.

 

[Compound2632]

On 17/04/2023 at 23:37, jim.snowdon said:

On merchandise wagons, the body support stanchions/knees are always outside the body, where they will not obstruct the load. Having the ironwork inside a mineral wagon doesn't matter, as the load simply conforms to the space.

 

Always! A most treacherous word which you might like to qualify, carefully.

[Compound2632]

On 18/04/2023 at 09:32, Aire Head said:

Midland Railway D663A were built for both mineral and merchandise traffic and as such they have bottom doors and full height side doors.

 

And indeed their predecessors, the D299 8-ton goods and coal wagons, together with their end-door brethren, D351 - collectively over 70,000 wagons, amounting to something like 5% of the total wagon fleet by c. 1902. (They also had their knees on the inside, but no protruding bolt-heads.)

[57xx]

On 17/04/2023 at 18:08, Aire Head said:

 

7/8 Plank wagons are for lower density minerals such as coal/coke. 5 plank wagons were for higher density materials such as stone although this didn't preclude their use for coal. In BR days they would be mainly used for mineral traffic and be in a pretty shoddy condition. Like this 0 Gauge example I finished recently.

 

 

 

 

The 3rd plank down is one continuous plank. Just saying. 🙂

[Aire Head]

6 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

The 3rd plank down is one continuous plank. Just saying. 🙂

 

Yeah I realised my mistake too late 😅

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Aire Head said:

Yeah I realised my mistake too late 😅

 

Lad with the paint-pot had ten minutes before lunch then was put onto something else after...

[kevinlms]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Lad with the paint-pot had ten minutes before lunch then was put onto something else after...

Or else the can of striped paint!