Did the GWR ever use the Hornby long Clerestory livery

[DCB]

I have a couple of Triang short Clerestory coaches from the mid 1960s repainted into the same livery as the Hornby Long Clerestories.  I repainted some more the same scheme, lots of brown  and then checked to see which period the livery is correct for, and can't find one.  Everything has a lot more cream, especially the ventilators over the doors. Did the GWR ever paint coaches in this livery?   

[dpgibbons]

The liveries animation page on the website here shows you the correct GWR coach livery for each period. Your coaches appear to be a simplified version of the GWR pre-1906 livery.

[Hal Nail]

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveries.html

[Compound2632]

On 18/04/2023 at 06:50, Hal Nail said:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveries.html

 ... per @dpgibbons's post.

[DCB]

Thanks. everyone. I still can not find anything like The Hornby livery with the distinctive chocolate ventilators,   I think Hornby maybe used a Toplight as inspiration and didn't realise the dark patches were windows not brown paint.  I made the classic mistake of copying an RTR livery, and the really annoying thing is Triang got it right - er than Hornby did 30 years later and I spent a couple of hours re painting my short clerestories from a reasonable sort of post WW1 livery into something far less realistic.    Luckily they were bog standard and not a cut and shut kit bashed model.  They sort of look the part but it I'll never be happy with them. Guess its repaint about 80 ventillators...

 

 

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, DCB said:

Thanks. everyone. I still can not find anything like The Hornby livery with the distinctive chocolate ventilators,   I think Hornby maybe used a Toplight as inspiration and didn't realise the dark patches were windows not brown paint.  

 

I think you're giving them the benefit of something rather more than the doubt there.

[Il Grifone]

GWR framing was picked out in black not chocolate. This is rather irrelevant in the case of the Hornby clerestories as they don't have any, being incorrectly flush sided*. The GWR were not above treating flush sided steel coaches to full livery in the twenties of course.

Strictly the Hornby composite (a 2nd/3rd IIRC) is only appropriate to the pre-1911 period as they were rebuilt as full thirds on the abolition of 2nd class - the central lavatories were converted to an additional comparment. I would assume they just qualified for the full chocolate 1908-12 livery rather than the 1912 crimson?.

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1880.html

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1908.html

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1912.html

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1922.html

 

* My intention was to buy several of these in the '80s. The lack of framing caused me to drop this idea....

[DCB]

For  some reason  I can not recall any layouts set in the all over brown livery period of the GWR or really the all over crimson livery. Odd that.

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

GWR framing was picked out in black not chocolate.

 

Really beading - strips of planed or molded wood - nailed over the but joints of the panels rather than framing; the actual frame of the carriage body was the under the panels, as seen here in a somewhat decayed state:

 

 

[Embedded link to Didcot Railway Centre website.]

 

10 minutes ago, DCB said:

For  some reason  I can not recall any layouts set in the all over brown livery period of the GWR or really the all over crimson livery. Odd that.

 

The well-known EM gauge layout Hope-under-Dinmore claims to be set rather elastically in the period 1900-1920 and has several Great Western passenger trains in these liveries in its sequence.

[Il Grifone]

The brown era was only four years, so, at most, half the passenger stock would have been painted in this livery. Everyone's favourite branch line being at the end of the queue.  The crimson livery brackets WW1 which everyone tends to ignore for some reason.

 

I was undecided whether to put 'beading' or 'framing'.... (framing intended as in picture.)

 

My EM layout was to be set 'around 1928' and  a few crimson vehicles were prepared - a couple of coaches, a 6 wheel siphon (the K's metal kit*), and a horse box. Since then there has been a discussion as to whether such lowly vehicles were actually painted crimson. Modeller's licence will leave them cirimson!

 

*It was still current production when I built it!

Edited April 22, 2023 by Il Grifone

[Steamport Southport]

To be fair to Hornby, they were brought in to go with the GWR and MR 4-4-0s as ISTR there were complaints in the model railway press that they had nothing to pull. The Schools and D49 could pull the Pullmans, SR and LNER coaches.

 

They were virtually Railroad range before the term was thought of.

 

 

Jason

[Il Grifone]

If Tri-ang could have raised mouldings in the sixties, I fail to see how Hornby could justify not having them in the eighties. This error should long since have been corrected.

IMHO of course.

The Midland 4-4-0 still had nothing to pull. The Midland clerestorey design is completely different from the Great Western one. (Integral with the carriage ends rather than stuck on top of the roof).

What SR coaches? Not the GWR Colletts painted green? We never got the matching full third either.

Farish's earlier efforts did at least look like a Maunsell coach (just don't take a ruler too close!)

Or am I being too pedantic?

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

The Midland clerestorey design is completely different from the Great Western one. (Integral with the carriage ends rather than stuck on top of the roof).

 

That didn't prevent Hornby from issuing these two carriages in a crude version of midland livery - again seriously skimping on the lining out:

[Embedded link to Hattons website image.]

 

The old Triang shorties were also issued in a similar style at some point.

 

The simplification in the lining out in this and the Great Western livery was no doubt due to the limited technology available to Hornby at the time. The Rivarossi 3.8 mm/ft scale LMS Period 1 carriages showed what could be achieved at the time.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

11 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

If Tri-ang could have raised mouldings in the sixties, I fail to see how Hornby could justify not having them in the eighties. This error should long since have been corrected.

IMHO of course.

The Midland 4-4-0 still had nothing to pull. The Midland clerestorey design is completely different from the Great Western one. (Integral with the carriage ends rather than stuck on top of the roof).

What SR coaches? Not the GWR Colletts painted green? We never got the matching full third either.

Farish's earlier efforts did at least look like a Maunsell coach (just don't take a ruler too close!)

Or am I being too pedantic?

 

But why go to that effort when you are trying to sell them to the train set market who wouldn't give a hoot?

 

If you were a modeller then you would be building the kits that were readily available.

 

Not pedantic. More not knowing the market Hornby was in at the time, and one they still have a huge foot in. They probably sold more of those MR liveried clerestories than Mainline and Airfix sold their accurate LMS coaches.

 

If people stopped buying the things* then maybe they will get rid of them and release some proper ones!

 

 

*and the rest of the old tat, and it's not just Hornby, other manufacturers are just as guilty. They aren't exactly cheap either.

 

 

 

Jason

[Il Grifone]

The Rivarossi models were a serious lack of market research. The different scale must have meant many lost sales (mine for  a start!). I suppose since no one in Italy seemed to notice the different scales....

 

I think Airfix etc. seriously hurt Hornby sales (could be wrong?). It certainly did in my case.

 

The above mentioned horse box was a Hornby (or rather Tri-ang - not that there is a signicant difference (apart from the underframes - though both are bin material). This was (still is?) a reasonable model of the GWR prototype (apart from the raised planking grooves). Mine had been back dated with curved 'tumblehome on the ends. The Lima version is rather better (apart from the surfeit of roof ventilators - easily corrected - and the underframe, which is nearly as bad as the Hornby effort.

[kevinlms]

21 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

But why go to that effort when you are trying to sell them to the train set market who wouldn't give a hoot?

 

If you were a modeller then you would be building the kits that were readily available.

 

Not pedantic. More not knowing the market Hornby was in at the time, and one they still have a huge foot in. They probably sold more of those MR liveried clerestories than Mainline and Airfix sold their accurate LMS coaches.

 

If people stopped buying the things* then maybe they will get rid of them and release some proper ones!

 

 

*and the rest of the old tat, and it's not just Hornby, other manufacturers are just as guilty. They aren't exactly cheap either.

 

 

 

Jason

There is a lot of people that won't buy kits, especially one that needs complicated painting, lettering and lining out. Hornby made a better job than many modellers could. I wonder how many quality kits are still sitting unopened in cupboards?

[kevinlms]

30 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

The Rivarossi models were a serious lack of market research. The different scale must have meant many lost sales (mine for  a start!). I suppose since no one in Italy seemed to notice the different scales....

 

I think Airfix etc. seriously hurt Hornby sales (could be wrong?). It certainly did in my case.

 

 

Yes, those Rivarossi coaches had a lovely paint job, but a horrible distorted scale, leading to them being left on the retailers shelf - I know I did, after thinking about the possibilities and deciding there were none! Too low & too wide.

 

Didn't Kittle Hobby in Swansea, advertise them in the Railway Modeller for years, until they finally went.

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

There is a lot of people that won't buy kits, especially one that needs complicated painting, lettering and lining out. Hornby made a better job than many modellers could. I wonder how many quality kits are still sitting unopened in cupboards?

 

Indeed - and its something that still sometimes gets forgotten today when people seek to somehow seek to dismiss RTR users as 'not proper modellers'.

 

In fact compared to the 1980s, ornate lining etc is an even harder task to DIY as modern RTR Tampo printing etc has advanced so much with the decoration hugely refined compared to previous decades (eg. much thinner yet with far more colours represented) and usually DIY attempts* really do stick out like a sore thumb if mixed with RTR efforts.

 

* note the word 'usually' - there are indeed some excellent examples out there, however they are in the minority from what I can see.

[RJS1977]

I never quite understood why Hornby went to the effort and expense of tooling up for the "long" clerestories with their non-existent beading, when they could have simply reissued the old Triang ones (albeit ideally with the correct bogies).

 

I know the Triang clerestories don't match any known diagram, but for most modellers' purposes, that doesn't matter.

 

It's interesting too that despite having had both versions in and out of their ranges since I was a boy, Hornby have never (as far as I know) released the Triang clerestories with the correct bogies off the longer coaches.

[cctransuk]

35 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

It's interesting too that despite having had both versions in and out of their ranges since I was a boy, Hornby have never (as far as I know) released the Triang clerestories with the correct bogies off the longer coaches.

 

It may well be that the pivot locations are not suitable for the correct bogies.

 

CJI.

[Il Grifone]

It's not really relevant to talk about the correct bogies for the Tri-ang clerestories as they are rather generic and not models of anything that actually ran on the GWR. For the length as modelled, a 8' 6" WB bogie would be appropriate (K's made one which mine run on). The Brake third is nearest to a D37 (IIRC) if you stick the luggage compartment from a second coach on the end (and ignore that the resut is a bit too narrow - 6" IIRC). Make two of these and the left over passenger compartments make a 10 compartment full third (C10? - this should have 10 foot WB bogies). The other coach is a full 2nd (there weren't any!) and there is not a lot one can do with it. Splicing in extra bits to make a full 1st is possible but an enormous hassle.

Sides from Ratio  4 wheelers can give more variety - beware the composite has been stretched to fit the underframe of the third. (IIRC it was originally a 1st/2nd (2 of each).

Apologies for any errors in this - I'm away from my library at the moment.

 

 

DO NOT READ THE NEXT BIT!

 

 

Once seen it can't be ignored!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Whoever did the tooling didn't realise the end panels should be half size - the end compartments are the same size as the others! Eliminating this is still more hassle, but well worthwhile.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Il Grifone

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

DO NOT READ THE NEXT BIT!

Once seen it can't be ignored!!!!!!!!

Whoever did the tooling didn't realise the end panels should be half size - the end compartments are the same size as the others! Eliminating this is still more hassle, but well worthwhile.

 

Once the roof is off the reason for that is, I think, apparent: the thickness of the end, together with the need for a landing for the glazing strip, dictates this.

 

The real thing:

 

[Embedded link to Didcot Railway Centre website.]

[Il Grifone]

Two Bk/3rds will make one of these! 

I have to confess to leaving off the yellow/gold lining!

I have a feeling the 8 compartment thirds  are only 8' wide, so a bit narrow for the Bk/3rds (ignore!).

 

It may well be deliberate to leave room for the ends/glazing, but it looks to me like too much thought would have been involved - I'll have to dig one out and Check. I think there are one or two here in Sardinia - arrived by mistake!

 

 

[Compound2632]

One has to remember that we're discussing here models designed over 40 years ago (the Hornby long clerestories) and over 60 years ago (the Triang shorties) when both the technology for prodicing RTR models and consumer expectations where rather more primitive than today! 

[RJS1977]

2 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

It's not really relevant to talk about the correct bogies for the Tri-ang clerestories as they are rather generic and not models of anything that actually ran on the GWR.

 

Generic is back in fashion now ;-)

 

I think we can be sure that whatever variant the Triang clerestories are closest to, they certainly didn't run round on BR Mark 1 coach bogies...

 

Fitting either the Hornby long coach bogies, or 3d printed Dean bogies from Shapeways both seem to be quite common "fixes" for the issue.