00 gauge 40mm and/or 36mm wheelbase motor bogies

[009 micro modeller]

I’m currently trying to build some motorised wagons in 00 for my current project, as detailed here.

 

So far I’ve fitted a Hornby class 86 motor bogie to a 10ft wheelbase Dapol van, but it’s one of the old Ringfield ones and the performance (specifically slow running and starting smoothly) is not the best. It has been improved quite a lot by adding weight, but this then creates a different problem in that it is too heavy to be moved by an 009 loco when loaded onto my transporter (whereas the same loco managed fine when it wasn’t weighted). This is particularly concerning given that ultimately whichever loco is used will need to be able to move two of these.

 

I’ve looked online (so far unsuccessfully) for a more modern 86 bogie with a can motor, which might be better, but are there any other options that might run smoothly? They need to be exactly 40mm wheelbase (or alternatively 36mm for 9ft wagons) to visually match the wheelbase and axle boxes on the existing wagon frames but I’m not too bothered about wheel diameter being slightly too large (up to a point anyway) although in some cases perhaps they could be re-wheeled. Initially I looked at Tenshodo, Black Beetle and similar but these seem to often be a bit too short and possibly a bit expensive, given that I need at least five. I have seen some suggestions elsewhere that a Hymek or Warship bogie might be the right wheelbase but wasn’t sure.

 

One of the issues with the 86 bogie seems to be that it was designed for use in a large loco, not as an independent 4-wheel unit and therefore doesn’t run very smoothly without the weight of the loco. Is this likely to be a problem with all motor bogies intended specifically for Bo-Bo locos?

[Type 2]

You will face slow speed running problems with just a powered motor bogie, they all need decent weight to give them traction to allow decent power to overcome any tightness in the drive train.

 

The options you have that I can think of are Hornby Railroad style units as found in:

 

Class 33

Class 42

Class 86

Class 90 and I'd imagine 91

 

Any of those stripped down, cleaned up and lightly oiled can run very smoothly

 

There are also Black Beetles and Bull-Ants (if you can find them both) but again, you'll face the lack of traction issue

Edited May 4, 2023 by Type 2

[009 micro modeller]

27 minutes ago, Type 2 said:

The options you have that I can think of are Hornby Railroad style units as found in:

 

Class 33

Class 42

Class 86

Class 90 and I'd imagine 91

 

Any of those stripped down, cleaned up and lightly oiled can run very smoothly

Thanks, that’s really helpful. Are they all definitely 40mm wheelbase though? I have a feeling that some (if they’re a later retooling) might have got longer. For instance on the prototype the 87, 90 and 86 all share the same wheelbase but I think in model form the 87 is different but not sure about the 90 (the 86 at least is under scale, but correct for my purposes).

 

27 minutes ago, Type 2 said:

There are also Black Beetles and Bull-Ants (if you can find them both) but again, you'll face the lack of traction issue

Clearly though this isn’t necessarily an inherent problem with all small 4-wheel units as there are several smooth running RTR locos (including in 009 but probably in standard gauge 00 as well) which are much smaller and lighter than these motor bogies but run smoothly (some do have flywheels though, but not all). So is the problem just that they’re designed to be used as the power bogie on a bogie loco (with the extra weight that implies), not as the chassis on a 4-wheel one? And it’s not that I can’t add any  weight, it’s just that the Ringfield class 86 bogie seems to need a lot more added weight to make it controllable at low speeds, as well as the bogie being quite heavy anyway.

 

Of course I could have another go at building my own chassis but that hasn’t gone particularly well so far.

Edited May 4, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[Type 2]

7 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Thanks, that’s really helpful. Are they all definitely 40mm wheelbase though? I have a feeling that some (if they’re a later retooling) might have got longer. For instance on the prototype the 87, 90 and 86 all share the same wheelbase but I think in model form the 87 is different but not sure about the 90 (the 86 at least is under scale, but correct for my purposes).

 

Clearly though this isn’t necessarily an inherent problem with all small 4-wheel units as there are several smooth running RTR locos (including in 009 but probably in standard gauge 00 as well) which are much smaller and lighter than these motor bogies but run smoothly (some do have flywheels though, but not all). So is the problem just that they’re designed to be used as the power bogie on a bogie loco (with the extra weight that implies), not as the chassis on a 4-wheel one? And it’s not that I can’t add any  weight, it’s just that the Ringfield class 86 bogie seems to need a lot more added weight to make it controllable at low speeds, as well as the bogie being quite heavy anyway.

 

Of course I could have another go at building my own chassis but that hasn’t gone particularly well so far.

I believe they are all 40mm wheelbase, I think the Class 33 is the only one that is actually to scale.  The Lima/Hornby Railroad 87 has 34mm wheel base, too short for your purposes. 

 

They are designed for double bogie diesels but they can be made to run very slowly and smoothly on their own.  Ringfields are much harder to get to run smoothly, especially if traction tyre fitted 

[009 micro modeller]

28 minutes ago, Type 2 said:

Ringfields are much harder to get to run smoothly, especially if traction tyre fitted 

I thought that might be the case; one of the issues seems to be a very high starting voltage and more inertia than on other mechanisms. I did wonder if the slightly later Chinese Ringfields would be any better than the Margate ones but it probably doesn’t make a massive amount of difference. But the point of my original question on this thread was to try and widen the range of possible options, in case I can’t find enough 86s with modern motors. Of course these could be from other manufacturers as well, including in H0 but that would potentially require a massive amount of research, especially as it doesn’t always seem to be easy to check the wheelbase for each type of bogie.

 

Edit: it does suggest here though that the 90 is 44mm: 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[adanapress]

Have you looked at the old Triang/Hornby R157 Diesel Railcar bogie.  Theres a good deal of  detail you may wish to grind off the bogie sides, and is a hard grade of the dreaded mazak,   but they run really well,  and well lubricated can run quite slowly.  Can be got fairly cheap-ish second hand, but some spares are getting hard to find. I have lots of these bogies and love them all, well most of them! (re-wheeled of course)

Edited May 4, 2023 by adanapress
missed a vital bit

[009 micro modeller]

2 minutes ago, adanapress said:

Have you looked at the old Triang/Hornby R157 Diesel Railcar bogie.  Theres a good deal of  detail you may wish to grind off the bogie sides, and is a hard grade of the dreaded mazak,   but they run really well,  and well lubricated can run quite slowly.  Can be got fairly cheap-ish second hand, but some spares are getting hard to find. I have lots of these bogies and love them all, well most of them! (re-wheeled of course)

Ideally though I need to be able to completely remove the side frames (and then fit the wagon frames instead) and it needs to be able to run at a slow crawl. Are they the right wheelbase?

 

1 hour ago, Type 2 said:

There are also Black Beetles

Are these still being made? Supposedly they can be 40mm wheelbase with 14mm wheels which sounds ideal but is the availability of Mashima motors a problem? (It is a problem for the High Level Fly Shunter kit I was originally going to use).

[The Johnster]

On 04/05/2023 at 20:43, adanapress said:

Have you looked at the old Triang/Hornby R157 Diesel Railcar bogie.  Theres a good deal of  detail you may wish to grind off the bogie sides, and is a hard grade of the dreaded mazak,   but they run really well,  and well lubricated can run quite slowly.  Can be got fairly cheap-ish second hand, but some spares are getting hard to find. I have lots of these bogies and love them all, well most of them! (re-wheeled of course)

These are originally from the SR EMU, and can run quite smoothly if a little noisily.  They are IIRC 18:1 final drive ratio, so need a delicate touch on the control knob to get the best out of them, not to mention modern profile wheels of 12mm diameter. Probably best for your purposes to cut the outside frames off altogether as they are ‘cosmetic’ anyway.  They can be found on the TC Budd Railcar and Triang Blue Pullman as well.  Powerful enough not to need traction tyres, but a bit of a lump for your 009 locos to haul around on converter wagons…

 

Black Beetles/SPUDS are rare as RHS and expensive of you can find them, but are probably the best solution.  
 

 

[009 micro modeller]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Black Beetles/SPUDS are rare as RHS and expensive of you can find them, but are probably the best solution.  

Are they available in the right wheelbase though? My previous research suggested that they might be but are generally a bit too short.

[009 micro modeller]

As a further alternative option (but perhaps a bit left-field) I’m wondering about H0 scale instead. Gauge is more accurate (for the narrow gauge line as well - it’s meant to be 2’ 6”) and potentially 35mm and 31.5mm wheelbase motor bogies could be easier to find? Although 35mm would also do (nearly) for 9ft wheelbase in 00.

[uax6]

40mm w/base bogie motorising bits are available from Highlevel Kits:

https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/product-page/longrider

 

34mm w/base is covered by them too:

https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/product-page/lorider

 

Andy G

[009 micro modeller]

53 minutes ago, uax6 said:

40mm w/base bogie motorising bits are available from Highlevel Kits:

https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/product-page/longrider

 

34mm w/base is covered by them too:

https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/product-page/lorider

 

Andy G

I did have a look at those. I wasn’t sure what the wheel diameter was and whether they can be used without the side frames being fitted but it’s a good idea, especially now that I’m not too bothered about the clearances around the axle.

[uax6]

Looking at the download section there is a drawing of the lorider:

https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/_files/ugd/27e471_357a992251d64918a23655169bec1eee.pdf

 

But you might be better off with a normal gearbox to take the drive up into the van so the motor can be out of sight. A double ended can motor could drive both axles  (with another gearbox) if you require it. 

 

Andy G

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, uax6 said:

But you might be better off with a normal gearbox to take the drive up into the van so the motor can be out of sight. A double ended can motor could drive both axles  (with another gearbox) if you require it. 

I think this is pretty much how their Fly Shunter works (which is designed for exactly this) but the motor it uses is no longer available which is why I need to look at other options (the Fly Shunter has been used before to motorise 00 gauge wagons for other 009 layouts featuring transporter wagons).

 

Annoyingly there doesn’t seem to be a drawing of the Longrider specifically.

Edited May 9, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[uax6]

Why not use their humpshunter gearbox? It will give low speeds  (using the 120:1 ratio). Heres its download sheet:

 

https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/_files/ugd/27e471_10a4ceff75c143c4bb4b4c4debc11bcc.pdf

 

Andy G

[Bucoops]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I think this is pretty much how their Fly Shunter works (which is designed for exactly this) but the motor it uses is no longer available which is why I need to look at other options (the Fly Shunter has been used before to motorise 00 gauge wagons for other 009 layouts featuring transporter wagons).

 

Annoyingly there doesn’t seem to be a drawing of the Longrider specifically.

 

Still happy to sell a motor if you can get the etches  :)

[009 micro modeller]

55 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Still happy to sell a motor if you can get the etches  :)

Thank you. I contacted them about the etches and they are currently looking for some so I might take you up on that.

[49395]

These are typically up to 35mm wheelbase but might be worth an enquiry to see if a bespoke one could be put together 

 

https://www.locosnstuff.com/Motor-Bogie-and-Chassis-kits.php

 

I have a couple of the motor bogies under some 7mm narrow gauge locos and they run better than a tenshodo

[009 micro modeller]

7 minutes ago, 49395 said:

These are typically up to 35mm wheelbase but might be worth an enquiry to see if a bespoke one could be put together 

 

https://www.locosnstuff.com/Motor-Bogie-and-Chassis-kits.php

 

I have a couple of the motor bogies under some 7mm narrow gauge locos and they run better than a tenshodo

They look good but again cost could be an issue given that I need at least five.

[ColinK]

Have a look at LocosnStuff …

 

Motor Bogies

 

I now have so many different types of motor bogie / power units available that I thought a guide to their use might be useful.  The 3D printed ones can be shaped to fit a specific model, there is a list below of chassis I have already done.  If you want one made to order I may ask you to post me the body to get it right, once drawn and testedit will then be available to others. 

[cctransuk]

On 04/05/2023 at 20:49, 009 micro modeller said:

Are these still being made? Supposedly they can be 40mm wheelbase with 14mm wheels which sounds ideal ....

 

Yes - but you can only get them from http://www.steameramodels.com/bbeetle.htm

 

14mm. dia. wheels in a wagon chassis - are you sure? Most wagons had 3'-0'' (12mm.) dia. wheels.

 

CJI.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Yes - but you can only get them from http://www.steameramodels.com/bbeetle.htm

 

14mm. dia. wheels in a wagon chassis - are you sure? Most wagons had 3'-0'' (12mm.) dia. wheels.

 

CJI.

 

Weren’t some of them about 3’ 3” or similar?

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Weren’t some of them about 3’ 3” or similar?

 

Markits' and Gibson standard wagon wheels are, prototypically, 12mm. dia., give or take the odd gnats' whisker.

 

CJI.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Markits' and Gibson standard wagon wheels are, prototypically, 12mm. dia., give or take the odd gnats' whisker.

 

CJI.

I’ve never really thought about this before, as in 009 it doesn’t make as much of a difference, but should they be measured to the edge of the flange or the inside?

[uax6]

Over the tyre, not the flange.

 

Andy G