Delivery route for A60 stock when new

[roythebus1]

A discussion on the District Dave Underground website asks if anyone knows what route the Metropolitan Line A60 stock was delivered from Cravens in Sheffield to Neasden depot. There's some mention of the GC route being used as it seems the most direct route straight to Neasden! but so far there's only been one photo discovered and that shows a new 8 car unit outside the Cravens factory with a match wagon at the end.

 

Can anyone shed any light on the answer?

[30851]

I have seen at least two pictures of A60/A62 stock being hauled along the GC to Neasden. The one I can find easily (Steam Memories: 1950's and 1960's Great Central Lines) shows B16/3 61463 hauling a set past Bagthorpe Junction. Date sometime around July 61.

 

I would have to hunt harder to find the other picture. I have it one of my books - somewhere.

 

Rob 

[Wickham Green too]

Being 9'8'' wide they'd probably have travelled when little else was about - including photographers !

[roythebus1]

Yes, they were the widest stock in Britain at the time. I wonder if they'd have to run as OGLO but somehow doubt it as they are wide at the waistrail. Below the solebar they'd have to comply with normal platform spacings.

 

Using the GC all the way would seem sensible. The speculation on the district Dave site was about what class of air-braked diesel would have hailed them. The simple answer is that as there weren't any diesels fitted with train air brakes at the time they'd be steam-hauled as class 9 unfitted.

[Ray H]

Wasn't A stock delivered to Ruislip depot initially?

[roythebus1]

Not that i know of. I've got some copies of LT Magazine from that period on my computer, I'll have a look on here later to see if that yields any information. The C69 stock was delivered via West Ruislip, then via Ealing Broadway, cross over to the district, then via running in at Acton test track to Neasden. I took pictures of C69 at Ealing Broadway Central Line!

[keefer]

50 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

Yes, they were the widest stock in Britain at the time. I wonder if they'd have to run as OGLO but somehow doubt it as they are wide at the waistrail. Below the solebar they'd have to comply with normal platform spacings.

 

Using the GC all the way would seem sensible. The speculation on the district Dave site was about what class of air-braked diesel would have hailed them. The simple answer is that as there weren't any diesels fitted with train air brakes at the time they'd be steam-hauled as class 9 unfitted.

At the time and indeed into the 80s, Underground stock was moved on BR using nothing more complicated than a match wagon/brake van (with an LT coupler at one end) at each end of the rake. As you say, hauled unfitted - even if there were air-brake locos, 'translator' match vehicles didn't exist.

[Wickham Green too]

32 minutes ago, keefer said:

...nothing more complicated than a match wagon/brake van (with an LT coupler at one end) at each end of the rake. ...

... or a little more complicated - match wagons AND brake vans : -  

Banbury ; 24/11/88 ( DB953159, B902606, B902614 & B955096 )

[jim.snowdon]

Those were the days when LT rolling stock was delivered uncommissioned, normally without shoebeams and, for tube stock, without traction motors. Final installation work was done at the receiving depot before each unit got its test runs on LT metals. Neither Cravens nor Metro-Cammell were equipped to test run electric stock on the premises. It obviously made sense to bring the A stock in through Neasden, but as far as I am aware, everything up to the 1990 stock came in via West Ruislip and commissioning at Ruislip depot.

[D7666]

Before we go round and round in circles, this exact subject has been on here before :

 

 

I did post that link to the old Rmweb thread on to district Dave.

 

There are a couple of obvious flaws in some of the posts on that old thread at least with suggested motive power e.g. the suggestion of Tinsley air braked Brush2s.....

but .....

(1) there was no such thing as an air brake Brush2 at this time, this was vacuum braking days, so unbraked
(2) Tinsley depot was not open then, it did not open until 1964
(3) the main Sheffield are diesel depot was Darnall at the time in question, which is an odd oversight exactly because Cravens were in Darnall

 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by D7666

[30851]

On 15/05/2023 at 05:57, 30851 said:

I have seen at least two pictures of A60/A62 stock being hauled along the GC to Neasden. The one I can find easily (Steam Memories: 1950's and 1960's Great Central Lines) shows B16/3 61463 hauling a set past Bagthorpe Junction. Date sometime around July 61.

 

I would have to hunt harder to find the other picture. I have it one of my books - somewhere.

 

Rob 

 

I have found the other picture - from Station Master's reflections by David Holmes. Picture of 73010 5.59PM 29/6/62 at East Leake on a "Darnall-Ruislip special" running as a class 8 (assuming this http://www.wheeltappersdccsounds.co.uk/page72/index.html is correct). Note it has a match wagon and brake van on the front.

 

Rob

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/05/2023 at 19:55, roythebus1 said:

Yes, they were the widest stock in Britain at the time. I wonder if they'd have to run as OGLO but somehow doubt it as they are wide at the waistrail. Below the solebar they'd have to comply with normal platform spacings.

 

Using the GC all the way would seem sensible. The speculation on the district Dave site was about what class of air-braked diesel would have hailed them. The simple answer is that as there weren't any diesels fitted with train air brakes at the time they'd be steam-hauled as class 9 unfitted.

All LT stock was moved undern 'Conditions of Passage' restrictions but the exact code applied would have depended entirely on the measurements of the vehicles involved.  Most likely bell signalled as 2-6-1 and the. restrictions that usually appeared on FTNs for LT stock transits were simply OGLO CARSID LACER  i..e out-of-gauge or exceptional load where there was no need to keep adjacent running lines or sidngs clear; subject to careful working when crossing from main lines ro loops or sidings etc; not to use crossovers between platforms.  which meant that an out-of-Gauge or exceotional Load form would be required.

 

If there were any 'tight spots' on the route they would be lsted on the FTN and the form together with the necessary instructions - usually reduction to a very low speed

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

All LT stock was moved undern 'Conditions of Passage' restrictions but the exact code applied would have depended entirely on the measurements of the vehicles involved.  Most likely bell signalled as 2-6-1 and the. restrictions that usually appeared on FTNs for LT stock transits were simply OGLO CARSID LACER  i..e out-of-gauge or exceptional load where there was no need to keep adjacent running lines or sidngs clear; subject to careful working when crossing from main lines ro loops or sidings etc; not to use crossovers between platforms.  which meant that an out-of-Gauge or exceotional Load form would be required.

 

If there were any 'tight spots' on the route they would be lsted on the FTN and the form together with the necessary instructions - usually reduction to a very low speed

It's worth remembering that although they were wider across the bodies than most stock, they were also shorter, at a tad over 53', which would have reduced the centre and end throws significantly by comparison with, say, a BR Mark 1. They may not have presented as much of a problem as their width might suggest.

 

[Wickham Green too]

Indeed ..... but the maximum width was from waist down to floor level ( with no turn-under ) - and London TransporT floor level was at what the rest of us consider to be platform level !

[Sitham Yard]

4 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

It's worth remembering that although they were wider across the bodies than most stock, they were also shorter, at a tad over 53', which would have reduced the centre and end throws significantly by comparison with, say, a BR Mark 1. They may not have presented as much of a problem as their width might suggest.

 

I seem to remember that the GCR London Extension was notable in being built to continental loading gauge. I don't know if this was still the case in BR days, if it was would this have helped?  

Andrew

[phil-b259]

22 minutes ago, Sitham Yard said:

I seem to remember that the GCR London Extension was notable in being built to continental loading gauge.

 

 

That is an often quoted MYTH - and needs to be stamped on as it has no basis in fact*

 

Although the GC had a generous loading gauge by UK standards it most certainly wasn't 'Continental gauge' in either height or width (the latter being fundamentally incompatible with the high level platforms used in the UK) and in any case south of Quinton Road GC trains used infrastructure built by the Metropolitan Railway decades before the GC started their London extension.

 

 

* It seems to have come about simply because the one time chairman of the GC (Edward Watkin) made a lot of noise about through trains to the continent using the other companies (Metropolitan Railway, South Eastern Railway) he was involved with (both of whose lines were built to traditional British standards) and a outfit trying to build Channel Tunnel.

Edited May 17, 2023 by phil-b259

[melmerby]

51 minutes ago, Sitham Yard said:

I seem to remember that the GCR London Extension was notable in being built to continental loading gauge. I don't know if this was still the case in BR days, if it was would this have helped?  

Andrew

Often quoted as "Berne" Gauge.

Unfortunately the Berne convention which set the standards wasn't until after the GC had built their line. GCR construction from 1894, Berne 1912.

AS Phil says it is a total myth, infact the GCR wasn't over generous by UK standards, being smaller than the GWR, Hull & Barnsley amongst others.

Several others were close to the GCR.

 

Interestingly the "Small Engine" Midland's gauge was quite good with 9' 0" width and 13' 9" height

Edited May 17, 2023 by melmerby

[30851]

This is the picture by David Holmes showing one alongside the platform at East Leake station.

 

Rob

[rodent279]

15 hours ago, Sitham Yard said:

I seem to remember that the GCR London Extension was notable in being built to continental loading gauge. I don't know if this was still the case in BR days, if it was would this have helped?  

Andrew

Nope.

[Engineer]

Picture for interest, Eastbound in the vicinity of Hanger Lane. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/51319326649/in/photolist-2mbUXSH-8qKSHx-rpRnST-xeqZcY-wZgVX6-wZ9zW7

 

If testing, either this was part of the one-way trip from Ruislip to Ealing Broadway and onwards, or a return to Ruislip Depot was to be wrong-road with appropriate protection.  The previous turnback site was Northolt and the next turnback site, North Acton, would allow return to the Westbound for Ealing Broadway but surface stock would be out of gauge on the Ruislip route where the WB passes under the 'Ealing and Shepherd's Bush' tracks.

 

Observation no longer applicable, see additional information and clarification in subsequent posts.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Engineer
Correction following subsequent posts

[Ray H]

2 hours ago, Engineer said:

. . . . . . . but surface stock would be out of gauge on the Ruislip route where the WB passes under the 'Ealing and Shepherd's Bush' tracks.

 

Was it in those days? I seem to recall there were return paths from North Acton to Ruislip depot.

[Engineer]

Return paths North Acton to Ruislip Depot.

 

Good point.  First, must say that I'd go along with your recollection of notices from that era. 

 

I don't have lived experience of those operations and must admit, when I first encountered the picture I thought it must be an out-and-back test.   I showed the picture last year to a retired colleague who was a fitter at Ruislip in the late 1950s and early 1960s, doing some New Stock work and cadging occasional 'outings' on test and transfer trips.  He pointed out to me the route restriction for surface stock that I'd not realised. 

 

I had a look at early issues of Underground News but found little supporting detail of commissioning activities.  I reckon I need to find time for some more enquiring and, all being well, will seek a look at source, both the archived TTs and the Rule Book Appendices.  The notices might have applied for 1959 and 1962 Stock, and 1960 Stock, and maybe with caveats for the A Stock and the later C Stock. 

[jim.snowdon]

8 hours ago, Engineer said:

Picture for interest, Eastbound in the vicinity of Hanger Lane. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/51319326649/in/photolist-2mbUXSH-8qKSHx-rpRnST-xeqZcY-wZgVX6-wZ9zW7

 

If testing, either this was part of the one-way trip from Ruislip to Ealing Broadway and onwards, or a return to Ruislip Depot was to be wrong-road with appropriate protection.  The previous turnback site was Northolt and the next turnback site, North Acton, would allow return to the Westbound for Ealing Broadway but surface stock would be out of gauge on the Ruislip route where the WB passes under the 'Ealing and Shepherd's Bush' tracks.

Until the 'back door' connection was built between Ruislip Depot and the turnback siding on the Met west of Ruislip, the only route for stock to reach the rest of the system was via White City (reverse) and Ealing Broadway, crossing over onto the District. The westbound Central line was in gauge for surface stock for a long time, only eventually becoming out of gauge through the track being lifted where it passes under the Ealing branch. That was only discovered after an empty stock move involving, I think, a Q stock car revealed that it had scraped the underside of the bridge. I think that was during the 1970s/80s, when I worked for LU, and well after the direct connection to the Metropolitan had been opened, when its importance as a surface stock transfer route had disappeared.

[Engineer]

Thanks for the additional information and clarification on routes and clearances, now understood, post modified.

[Ray H]

I'm 99.9% certain that A stock never (routinely, if at all) worked beyond North Acton towards White City. I'm equally sure that it would have been out of gauge at White City.

 

I disposed of my old WTTs some while ago so I can't check but I think the otherwise midday 12 minute interval clockface departures from Ealing Broadway were adjusted by 2 minutes twice a day to facilitate the A60s (and any other surface stock) reversing at what was, at that time, the sole eastbound platform.