Large express services originating from obscure locations

[Guest]

On 16/05/2023 at 13:28, kevinlms said:

Probably came about by analysing computer data and seeing what extra usage could be made. It came to a halt with privatisation, because the owner didn't wish to lose control of 'their' train set!

One of the bigger problems in privatisation has I think been contractual limitations and train crew knowledge beyond a franchise’s stamping ground. Extending one service by one franchise can affect revenue for another - essentially how Open Access operators work  

There are quite a few examples of franchises adding stops to/extending services to share the revenue on profitable services, I think these were called ORCATS raids - named after the software that distributed revenue to operators through complex calculations according to service frequency, time etc. An example of this is the extension of Wales services to Birmingham and Manchester airports - it’s less about providing opportunities to passengers and more about sharing revenue on lucrative flows.

East Midlands once extended their London expresses to start from Barnsley instead of Sheffield and I think occasionally in summers to York & Scarborough. I think there was talk once of extending through Penistone to/from Huddersfield as well.

Recently, TPE extended from Middlesbrough to Redcar and Saltburn - less for passenger benefit and more as I recall to free up platform space at Middlesbrough.

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

One of the bigger problems in privatisation has I think been contractual limitations and train crew knowledge beyond a franchise’s stamping ground. Extending one service by one franchise can affect revenue for another - essentially how Open Access operators work  

There are quite a few examples of franchises adding stops to/extending services to share the revenue on profitable services, I think these were called ORCATS raids - named after the software that distributed revenue to operators through complex calculations according to service frequency, time etc. An example of this is the extension of Wales services to Birmingham and Manchester airports - it’s less about providing opportunities to passengers and more about sharing revenue on lucrative flows.

East Midlands once extended their London expresses to start from Barnsley instead of Sheffield and I think occasionally in summers to York & Scarborough. I think there was talk once of extending through Penistone to/from Huddersfield as well.

Recently, TPE extended from Middlesbrough to Redcar and Saltburn - less for passenger benefit and more as I recall to free up platform space at Middlesbrough.

 

Is this the reason that TfW Holyhead - Birmingham services stop at Sandwell & Dudley or Smethwick Rolfe Street?, always seemed a strange arrangement.

 

Mike.

[Guest]

Just now, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Is this the reason that TfW Holyhead - Birmingham services stop at Sandwell & Dudley or Smethwick Rolfe Street?, always seemed a strange arrangement.

 

Mike.

It could well be, yes. Sometimes it does actually suit operators to help each other out by adding capacity on a heavily used route, or occasionally for pathing reasons, but post-privatisation it’s more often because operators want a share of revenue on a busy commuter route.

[SM42]

Revenue is I believe why down Virgin services stopped at Watford Jn, but you wouldn't know this at Euston. 

 

Pick up only,  I believe due to how the fare box was shared  

 

A current strange route, although not a big express ( do these even exist now?)  is GWR's Warminster to Worcester Foregate St which oddly runs under a 2Exx headcode 

 

Andy

Edited May 21, 2023 by SM42

[DavidB-AU]

12 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

I seem to recall reading that some of the Cotswold line services to Paddington started from Abergavenny as a way to minimise ECS working from Bristol.

 

FGW did this in the mid/late noughies. There was one early morning HST service with no equivalent return working. IIRC the average patronage as far as Hereford could be counted on one hand so it didn't last long. The bean counters must have concluded that stopping was more expensive than the (literal) handful of extra fares.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

7 hours ago, SM42 said:

Revenue is I believe why down Virgin services stopped at Watford Jn, but you wouldn't know this at Euston. 

 

Pick up only,  I believe due to how the fare box was shared

Watford Junction always was pick up/set down only. My memory only stretches back to the 1970s, but I suspect it goes back a lot further than this. Motherwell was the same, as I recall, and Wlimslow, but not Stockport, but I might have got that wrong.

[SM42]

58 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Watford Junction always was pick up/set down only. My memory only stretches back to the 1970s, but I suspect it goes back a lot further than this. Motherwell was the same, as I recall, and Wlimslow, but not Stockport, but I might have got that wrong.

 

I seem to recall a definite change in the timetable, around 2007, removing the previously advertised stops .

 

Andy

[astropsidings]

Llandudno to Paddington (and vv)?

 

47607 on 1V81 12.55 Llandudno-Paddington, Banbury Junction, 18-7-87.

[GordonC]

On 17/05/2023 at 16:21, D9020 Nimbus said:

Used this a few times from Newcastle to visit Model Rail Scotland. The timing was not much longer than changing at Waverley to a Queen Street service, then walking to Central. And I almost invariably got the return from Central too. Latterly, only XC Voyagers went that way—much less attractive as they were often crowded on the Newcastle — Edinburgh portion.

 

The GNER (and some later, ISTR) 91+mark 4 sets never had more than a handful of passengers in my coach, so I doubt if the extension was worth it from a purely financial POV.

 

Electrification on the Falkirk High route might allow through trains from the ECML to Queen Street?

 

Glasgow Queen Street would never have been able to accomodate the length of the Class 91 sets so through trains to there would have been a non-starter. The HSTs that ran before were a coach shorter and still more than filled the longest platform

[pete_mcfarlane]

Nobody has mentioned the ultimate example of this - the Southern's expresses (in some cases with Pullman cars) from London to Ore, a tiny village on the outskirts of Hastings. 

[keefer]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

Glasgow Queen Street would never have been able to accommodate the length of the Class 91 sets so through trains to there would have been a non-starter. The HSTs that ran before were a coach shorter and still more than filled the longest platform

Any HSTs went into the two righthand-most platforms (looking towards the tunnels) but even then, they blocked 2 or 3 platforms - the PC being on or close to the points. Whenever they were scheduled in, it was a case of turn them round ASAP - which would fit in with them being used as fill-in Edin-GQS services.

[DavidB-AU]

Going way back, there was an express from Ripon to King's Cross hauled by a Deltic.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

9 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Nobody has mentioned the ultimate example of this - the Southern's expresses (in some cases with Pullman cars) from London to Ore, a tiny village on the outskirts of Hastings. 

If the question is about Pullman car destinations, then I think Verney Junction wins hands down. The population of Ore is in the thousands. I am not sure that Verney Junction made it into the hundreds.

[Fat Controller]

12 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Nobody has mentioned the ultimate example of this - the Southern's expresses (in some cases with Pullman cars) from London to Ore, a tiny village on the outskirts of Hastings. 

Presumably, there were some carriage sidings in the vicinity?

[john new]

On 21/05/2023 at 23:44, SM42 said:

Revenue is I believe why down Virgin services stopped at Watford Jn, but you wouldn't know this at Euston. 

 

Pick up only,  I believe due to how the fare box was shared  

 

A current strange route, although not a big express ( do these even exist now?)  is GWR's Warminster to Worcester Foregate St which oddly runs under a 2Exx headcode 

 

Andy

In similar vein. I haven’t checked recently but there used to be Great Malvern to Weymouth services but no returns beyond Gloucester.

 

 

[phil-b259]

44 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Presumably, there were some carriage sidings in the vicinity?

 

The carriage sidings ( actually a EMU cleaning and stabling facility) was the ONLY reason Ore got 3rd rail in the first place!

 

And the EMU depot /Carriage shed ONLY came into being because there wasn't room to build one at Hastings station itself - so the SR extended the 3rd rail eastwards to the nearest place there was room for such a facility.

 

 

Also I would question whether Ore really counts in this thread anyway - because by the time trains got beyond Eastbourne and headed to (or back from) Hastings they were hardly 'express' services, stopping frequently. Services between Hastings and London always being quicker via the SER route via Robbertsbridge, Tonbridge and Sevenaoks and they never needed extending to Ore as the steam / DEMU depot was at St Leonards to the west of Hastings while the carriages could be accommodated in Hastings itself.

Edited May 23, 2023 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

On 21/05/2023 at 16:54, Morello Cherry said:

I seem to recall reading that some of the Cotswold line services to Paddington started from Abergavenny as a way to minimise ECS working from Bristol.

Oddly we were talking about the HSt workings from Hereford at  an OFs lunch yesterday but nobody mentioned anything about them ever starting from Abergavenny as passenger trains.  the origin of te stock varied a bit over the uears but was mainly from Bristol (St Phillips Marsh) .  The train crew working was even more convoluted that the stock working

[Mallard60022]

Has anyone mentioned the Paddington service from Newquay (not obscure, but small!)

P

[hexagon789]

1 minute ago, Mallard60022 said:

Has anyone mentioned the Paddington service from Newquay (not obscure, but small!)

P

It still has two a day I believe.

 

In th 80s, there was a Summer Friday overnight from Newcastle, returning on Saturday. More recently, CrossCountry had a Dundee-Newquay service on Summer Saturdays, usually an HST as well.

[Mallard60022]

1960 to 1962 SO Summer Timetable:

Cleethorpes to Sidmouth and Exmouth (and return). Often 11 Coaches. Express Headcode, but I doubt it went very fast anywhere as it took about 12 hours.

P

Edited May 23, 2023 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

Just now, hexagon789 said:

It still has two a day I believe.*

 

In th 80s, there was a Summer Friday overnight from Newcastle, returning on Saturday. More recently, CrossCountry had a Dundee-Newquay service on Summer Saturdays, usually an HST as well.

*Including Sundays. 

There is also a Gloucester Penzance (GW) and return.

I only know this because of the new Tamar Bridge Web Cam at Saltash and I use RTT to see what's what.

P

[Mallard60022]

Longest trip at present is Aberdeen to Penzance I think? That's been running on and off for years IIRC? Not sure if always, but it's a XC 5 Set today?

P

[Mallard60022]

I can't see a date requirement, so here's a shout out for the Up Atlantic Coast Express(es). Apologies for them Cornwall and Devon Folk for calling the Ace Departure points 'obscure'.

Phil

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

... I would question whether Ore really counts in this thread anyway - because by the time trains got beyond Eastbourne and headed to (or back from) Hastings they were hardly 'express' services. ...

Depends on your definition of beyond Eastbourne ! .....  the spur between Polegate and Pevensey was available for fast services ( one of the few bits of Southern Electric that's no longer with us ).

[hexagon789]

42 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Longest trip at present is Aberdeen to Penzance I think? That's been running on and off for years IIRC? Not sure if always, but it's a XC 5 Set today?

P

It was truncated to Plymouth during COVID. It has literally just resumed full running to Penzance with the timetable change on Sunday there.

 

It can be either, but is more frequently a 5-car 221 it seems. Possibly it is booked 5-car, with 4-car 220s substituting if necessary.

 

Certainly there is no timing difference between the types.