Live overhead and insulation

[009 micro modeller]

I’m currently starting an 009 project involving a narrow gauge line with tramway-style overhead that is actually live (picking up from the contact wire and returning through both rails). However, it occurs to me that the masts/traction poles will probably also be made from metal, probably brass, in addition to the copper or brass wire for the actual contact wire. I’m unsure whether it’s good practice to insulate the contact wire from the structure supporting it or whether they can just be soldered. Most model tramways with live overhead that I’ve seen pictures of appear to just have the contact wire soldered to the supports (which would presumably make the latter live), but I just wanted to check whether this was a good idea or whether it could create problems.

[Dagworth]

What are  you going to plant the poles in? Presumably a wooden baseboard which is an insulator. 
The only time you’d need to worry about insulation in OLE is if you are using it to liven up more than on pantograph at a time with trains/trams doing different things. 
 

PS, I suggest using guitar string for the actual contact wire. Suggestion from many years of experience of overhead modelling 
 

Andi

Edited May 21, 2023 by Dagworth

[009 micro modeller]

10 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

What are  you going to plant the poles in? Presumably a wooden baseboard which is an insulator. 
The only time you’d need to worry about insulation in OLE is if you are using it to liven up more than on pantograph at a time with trains/trams doing different things. 
 

PS, I suggest using guitar string for the actual contact wire. Suggestion from many years of experience of overhead modelling 
 

Andi

I was more worried about the resistance of the material used to make the poles, which might be very high compared to that used to make the contact wire. As well as any effects the current might have on any paint applied to the poles, although that’s probably a non-issue.

 

Isn’t guitar string usually steel? And what sort of diameter is it?

[Dagworth]

Resistance of the poles will not be an issue and then being live to the traction power will have no effect on any paint at all. 
 

Guitar string is steel yes, but it solders beautifully, it is also designed to be under tension and to have seven bells knocked out of it while tensioned. If you are able to tension your overhead it will look much more realistic than anything with bends/kinks/wiggles in it. It also behaves better for pantographs. 
 

Andi

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, Dagworth said:

Resistance of the poles will not be an issue and then being live to the traction power will have no effect on any paint at all. 
 

Guitar string is steel yes, but it solders beautifully, it is also designed to be under tension and to have seven bells knocked out of it while tensioned. If you are able to tension your overhead it will look much more realistic than anything with bends/kinks/wiggles in it. It also behaves better for pantographs. 
 

Andi

It does sound good, if I can get it to tension properly. I wouldn’t mind having wire that was a bit thicker than scale but ideally want to avoid having anything with visible bends in it as you say, because that would look like a solid bar rather than a wire. If it’s steel are there any issues with rust, as there sometimes are with steel-railed track?

[Dagworth]

4 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

It does sound good, if I can get it to tension properly. I wouldn’t mind having wire that was a bit thicker than scale but ideally want to avoid having anything with visible bends in it as you say, because that would look like a solid bar rather than a wire. If it’s steel are there any issues with rust, as there sometimes are with steel-railed track?

I’ve not really had any issues, but mine is painted the copper green that old OLE goes. The pans will keep the contact surface clean. 
I tend to use 16gauge for contact and catenary with 10gauge for droppers. It’s strong enough to form hooks around registration arms without them opening up when tensioned. 
 

Andi

[Red Devil]

Depends what sort of current collector you're intending using.....

For pantographs and to a degree bow collectors then yep some tramway modellers sometimes use the method of soldering to the span wires. Personally I've always tended to use Mark Hughes etched fittings and 0.3mm n/s wire formerly from Eileens Emporium in yard lengths, these work well for the above too but also for trolleypole use, there are frogs, hangers, pull off and board connectors in the range. 

I think with this one it's ask 10 modellers and get 10 different answers.

Personally I don't use live overhead as now I'm using dead rail and radio control for operation, but I always build it like it could be used and get it to look something like. The pic below shows these items used on my old layout, all soldered up and solid enough.

[009 micro modeller]

8 minutes ago, Red Devil said:

Depends what sort of current collector you're intending using.....

For pantographs and to a degree bow collectors then yep some tramway modellers sometimes use the method of soldering to the span wires. Personally I've always tended to use Mark Hughes etched fittings and 0.3mm n/s wire formerly from Eileens Emporium in yard lengths, these work well for the above too but also for trolleypole use, there are frogs, hangers, pull off and board connectors in the range. 

I think with this one it's ask 10 modellers and get 10 different answers.

Personally I don't use live overhead as now I'm using dead rail and radio control for operation, but I always build it like it could be used and get it to look something like. The pic below shows these items used on my old layout, all soldered up and solid enough.

I will be using diamond pantographs. The main reason is that it’s a narrow gauge shunting layout (lots of to and fro movement) and as such, not having to reverse the current collector all the time is an advantage, but it does also remove the need to have frogs in the overhead to accommodate trolley poles. That overhead looks very realistic and quite a fine gauge of wire. How would you solder it if it was a single track line with only a bracket arm and no span wires? I’m trying to work out what arrangement is best for mine, it may be that a mixture is needed, although I am a bit worried that span wires would be harder to tension than having all the contact wires attached to bracket arms (as here at Heaton Park):

 

 

As it’s a low-speed tramway-style system, I wasn’t intending to have a catenary wire etc., just a contact wire. It’ll hopefully be two tracks fed by a traverser off stage, with one of those dividing into two on scene (thus going to three tracks in total). So span wires across all the tracks might be appropriate for some bits of it but not others, which might have to have individual bracket arms, although I’m not really sure. I have also seen others with a central pole between two tracks, with a bracket arm on each side.

[Red Devil]

17 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I will be using diamond pantographs. The main reason is that it’s a narrow gauge shunting layout (lots of to and fro movement) and as such, not having to reverse the current collector all the time is an advantage, but it does also remove the need to have frogs in the overhead to accommodate trolley poles. That overhead looks very realistic and quite a fine gauge of wire. How would you solder it if it was a single track line with only a bracket arm and no span wires? I’m trying to work out what arrangement is best for mine, it may be that a mixture is needed, although I am a bit worried that span wires would be harder to tension than having all the contact wires attached to bracket arms (as here at Heaton Park):

 

 

As it’s a low-speed tramway-style system, I wasn’t intending to have a catenary wire etc., just a contact wire. It’ll hopefully be two tracks fed by a traverser off stage, with one of those dividing into two on scene (thus going to three tracks in total). So span wires across all the tracks might be appropriate for some bits of it but not others, which might have to have individual bracket arms, although I’m not really sure. I have also seen others with a central pole between two tracks, with a bracket arm on each side.

I'd probably make the bracket arms and use a Mark Hughes hanger off those if I was to do that myself. they are a fold up item so what I normally do is part fold it, pass the current wire through then complete the fold gripping the wire and hang onto the bracket arm or span wire (they have a hook on the top), slight amount of solder paste and then apply iron. I'd think the wire soldered to it or span wire would probably work as effectively but perhaps not have quite the same aesthetics. Steel traction poles that are threaded and drilled for 80mm current wire ( I think, off top of my head) are available which makes the whole planting of the posts and structural rigidity far better, although 80mm may be a bit high for your needs this was the nominal 20ft required in the UK for double deck cars etc.

 

I've never really bothered with pantographs as none of the systems I model really used them but the general consensus is that TT versions look best on 4mm trams, it may be the case for you that's the same case or even an n gauge version might look better on an appropriate tower.

[009 micro modeller]

44 minutes ago, Red Devil said:

I've never really bothered with pantographs as none of the systems I model really used them but the general consensus is that TT versions look best on 4mm trams, it may be the case for you that's the same case or even an n gauge version might look better on an appropriate tower.

Would the ones that are sold by East Lancs for 00/H0 tram use be suitable? I need them to be reasonably tall in any case.

[Red Devil]

13 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Would the ones that are sold by East Lancs for 00/H0 tram use be suitable? I need them to be reasonably tall in any case.

Most likely, but I'm guessing at that. I'm sure they'd be able to give you dimensions and a better idea.

[Strathwood]

All good stuff, anyone with advice for the optimum trolley wheel arrangement for those of us who are non-pants?

 

As a fan of the LUT system does anyone have any tips for modelling the ornate traction pole bases ala LUT aside from scratch building a master and casting them, ie does anyone know of a supplier, perhaps?

 

Kevin

[298]

On 21/05/2023 at 23:37, 009 micro modeller said:

I will be using diamond pantographs. The main reason is that it’s a narrow gauge shunting layout (lots of to and fro movement) and as such, not having to reverse the current collector all the time is an advantage, but it does also remove the need to have frogs in the overhead to accommodate trolley poles. That overhead looks very realistic and quite a fine gauge of wire. How would you solder it if it was a single track line with only a bracket arm and no span wires? I’m trying to work out what arrangement is best for mine, it may be that a mixture is needed, although I am a bit worried that span wires would be harder to tension than having all the contact wires attached to bracket arms (as here at Heaton Park):

 

 

As it’s a low-speed tramway-style system, I wasn’t intending to have a catenary wire etc., just a contact wire. It’ll hopefully be two tracks fed by a traverser off stage, with one of those dividing into two on scene (thus going to three tracks in total). So span wires across all the tracks might be appropriate for some bits of it but not others, which might have to have individual bracket arms, although I’m not really sure. I have also seen others with a central pole between two tracks, with a bracket arm on each side.

 

Have you considered using bow collectors? They seem a bit more forgiving than pans and look better under simple wire. There was a nice O-16.5 layout at Ely called "Books Bridge" with them that would be worth you looking into. 

From my observation of the layout in operation the bow collectors would auto-reverse and operation was hands free and not affected by them, but you'd probably need to set the wire height quite high or allow plenty of slack for them to reverse reliably.

Edited June 13, 2023 by 298

[009 micro modeller]

5 minutes ago, 298 said:

 

Have you considered using bow collectors? They seem a bit more forgiving than pans and look better under simple wire. There was a nice O-16.5 layout at Ely called "Books Bridge" with them that would be worth you looking into. 

From my observation of the layout in operation the bow collectors would auto-reverse and operation was hands free and not affected by them, but you'd probably need to set the wire height quite high or allow plenty of slack for them to reverse reliably.

Do they need a reverser built into the overhead wire like trolley poles do? That is one of the reasons why I’m not going to use trolley poles, because they’d need to reverse all the time as it’s a shunting layout (so lots of to and fro movements). It’s not just a question of my skill level (this is all new to me in a practical sense) but the way it would look if auto-reverses were built in.

[298]

It depends... the bow collectors are sprung so they are vertical, if the wire is too low or too taught then the bow won't push up with enough force to flip rearwards. I did wonder why the wire on Books Bridge was so high and the collectors so tall but that is to ease reversing. 

 

I used to switch on a HO scale layout with trolley poles, it was possible to back-pole but the public generally didn't get the amount of interference needed. The next trolley pole layout will use more through running.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

27 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Do they need a reverser built into the overhead wire like trolley poles do?

There are various types of bow collector. One type is pulled down and swivelled round like a trolley pole:

 

Another type doesn't swivel, but sits at an angle to the wire, and is either pulled over by hand or else the wire is set high at a terminus to allow the increased friction of the collector running backwards to push the wire up, and so flip the collector over to the other side. Here is a video of an Istanbul tram showing both of these methods (you can fast forward to 2:30):

 

On the Snaefell Mountain Railway, the bow collectors don't appear to move at all - they seem to be vertical all the time - and it is the wire that is pushed up.

 

I have no idea how reliable this would be on a model.

 

[Red Devil]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Do they need a reverser built into the overhead wire like trolley poles do? That is one of the reasons why I’m not going to use trolley poles, because they’d need to reverse all the time as it’s a shunting layout (so lots of to and fro movements). It’s not just a question of my skill level (this is all new to me in a practical sense) but the way it would look if auto-reverses were built in.

A work round for trolley poles is to use 'T' poles.....in effect a section of wire (at right angles to the pole) is used instead of a trolley wheel, this whilst not being prototypically accurate allows easy reversal and backwards running whilst using trolley poles, done neatly it's not that noticeable, often used in end to end tram layouts. Also has the added advantage of being wider so wire alignment doesn't have to be spot on.....One of those things that works well but isn't 100% correct. 

[009 micro modeller]

All good suggestions but ideally I would not need to reverse the collector at all (given the number of times the loco itself will change direction, and not always at exactly the same point). I’ve also seen it done with pantographs and live overhead before (and in 009, the same scale as me).

[Dava]

Bec kits sell Sommerfeldt bow collectors, pantos & tram poles.

Im looking at using these for an Hoe tram project.

Dava

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, Dava said:

Bec kits sell Sommerfeldt bow collectors, pantos & tram poles.

Im looking at using these for an Hoe tram project.

Dava

I wanted to use Sommerfeldt poles/masts, at least initially (they might end up costing a bit more but based on the instructions for wiring them it sounds like a relatively simple and robust system, even if lacking a little finesse or absolute prototypical accuracy) but am concerned about the height. I think Bec note on their website that they may not be suitable for British tramways that use double deck cars, and I’m concerned that I will have a similar issue as on my 009 layout I will have transporter wagons with standard 00 gauge wagons (including vans) on top which will be relatively tall overall. I’m also wondering about the sort of clearance needed but presumably as the prototype is low-voltage DC it doesn’t need to have a massive amount of clearance.

[New Haven Neil]

On 13/06/2023 at 21:25, Jeremy Cumberland said:

On the Snaefell Mountain Railway, the bow collectors don't appear to move at all - they seem to be vertical all the time - and it is the wire that is pushed up.

 

Just stumbled across this - they do have some fore and aft sprung movement right down at the base of the Hopkinson collectors, but seldom can be seen to do so - maybe up Snaefell on a windy day.....

 

You can spot them in this....

 

[Lord of Narnia]

I was going to use piano wire straightened with a vice/drill.

 

I made up some brass and copper tube masts. I’ll dig out some photos.

 

[009 micro modeller]

3 minutes ago, Lord of Narnia said:

I was going to use piano wire straightened with a vice/drill.

 

I made up some brass and copper tube masts. I’ll dig out some photos.

 

That all looks really good. I’ve actually started now (as per this topic), initially using Sommerfeldt traction poles and wire, though if necessary I might need to build one of the masts myself for the final project. Currently it’s on a bit of a hiatus as I’m just not finding the time to work on it at the moment, and also currently the focus is more on the transporter wagon side of the project anyway (which isn’t quite working as it should so needs a few adjustments, whereas the overhead wire stuff seems to be going very well).