BR(SR) diesel and electric loco classification

[Hippel]

I'm aware of class 73/0 being known as JA, 73/1 as JB and 74 as HB. Would this mean that 71s were HA?

What about 33s?

Also, were there AA, BA, CA etc?

 

Hope the learned gentry on here can assist.

Many thanks,

Paul

[Oldddudders]

In 5 years in Control, 1968-73, I don't recall the BRCW Bo-Bos being called anything but Cromptons.

 

The EDLs needed to have separate classifications once the second batch were introduced, as the first six could not be MUed with the second batch.  

[30368]

29 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Cromptons.

 

Absolutely Ian. Named after Crompton Parkinson who supplied the Traction Motors and the main electrical power and control equipment cubicle. Only application on BR, as far as I know, of the Sulzer 8LDA engine.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[pete_mcfarlane]

1 hour ago, Hippel said:

I'm aware of class 73/0 being known as JA, 73/1 as JB and 74 as HB. Would this mean that 71s were HA?

What about 33s?

71s were HA

 

A standard 33/0 was KA - there's more detail on the various codes used for 33s here: https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/locos/d/d6570.html

 

[Hippel]

Thanks for the replies, guys. 

Every day is a school day!

 

I did wonder if the earlier boosters and diesels along with shunter classes 11001, 15201 and 15211 would have been CA, BA etc.

 

Paul

[woodyfox]

33s were KA for 33/0 and 33/2 and were standard blue star. 33/1 were KB and had an additional highlevel multiple working jumper for JA workings

[D7666]

These are BR SR CM&EE drawing (or diagram) codes, not loco classes, not even unique to locos.

 

The 2 letters are not complete, they all have suffixes denoting variations, but, where there was only one variation it was omitted.

 

Applied to multiple units as well as locos.

 

HA 71

HB 74

JA 73/0

JB 73/1

KA 33/0 +33/2

KB 33/1

 

I typed it like that deliberately - 33/0 and 33/2 were KA-1A and KA-2B. The 1s and 2s are coincidence do not try and match them, the A B  1 2 etc are drawing office numbering not loco classes.

 

Other codes were assigned to EMU / DEMU and show sub-types not indicated in ABC spotting books.

 

For example 4Rep

 

MSO (1966 batch) AJ

MSO (1973 batch) AJ-2A

 

TBuf (1966) BS

TBuf (1973) BS-1A

 

TBFK [1966] BR

TBFK [1973] BR-1A

 

I chose these as you can see the 1966 were formed AJ BS BR AJ, the 1973 were same all with a suffix.

 

EMU follow that pattern, in any one type, the motor coaches are one letter pair, the trailer coaches a different letter pair.

 

Then it gets complex. A 4Cep for example the motor coaches as built were paired of two different versions, these were AM + AN (PHASE 2) AND AK + AL (PHase 1).

 

And so on.

 

They were stencilled on the car ends of every car.

 

All bespoke SR traction types had these codes but I do not know how far back - EPB for example did but I do not know if Sub and pre-war stock ever got them (they were a BR SR not SR SR thing).

 

508s and 455s got these codes.

 

The only full list I know of them in the public domain was from SEG in the old EMU stock books. There are pages and pages of them and I am not going to type them out. There s a huge range of letter pairs used, more than you could guess I suggest.

 

 

AFAIK they applied to BR SR 'regional' types - so even thing like ex LT IOW tube stock got them - but BR generic types did not (so 08s 09s, etc did not) to my knowledge but would b e interested to see. For example then, 07, which was a BR SR type.

 

20001 10201 etc i do not know. They almost certainly did, but have no idea what they are.

 

 

Upthread re the comment about 'they were called cromptons' well 'crompton' is / was only a nick name, these codes, KA KB are official. But CM&EE official.

Edited May 29, 2023 by D7666

[Hippel]

Wow, I didn't realise the coding went that far. Thanks very much for that @D7666.

 

Paul

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, D7666 said:

... AFAIK they applied to BR SR 'regional' types ... but BR generic types did not (so 08s 09s, etc did not) to my knowledge but would be interested to see. For example then, 07, which was a BR SR type. ...

Though not known as 09s at the time, the go-faster 350s were also a BR(SR) type - a follow-on from the Bulleid locos that weren't known as 12s at the time ! 

[D7666]

09 was a BR type not SR specific.

 

Not every 09 (as they later were) was ordered for or delivered new to BR SR.

 

LMR took some from new. Only later did they drift to SR.

 

D4105 to D4114 (later 09017 to 09026 )were LMR order to LMR depots; gradually realloxed to SR, but it took many years, some going via WR depots.

 

see

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=9&type=D&page=alloc

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by D7666

[D7666]

And apart from that, most BR SR allocated 08s are 'go faster' - SR based 08s in BR days always had a higher maximum speed than non-BR 08s.

 

Standard non BR SR 08s were 15 mph, BR SR 08s were 20 mph, apart from some of the /very/ low numbered early ones e.g.D30xx/D31xx.

 

Not as fast as 27 mph 09, but nonetheless different. They even had different BR Diagram numbers.

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by D7666

[slilley]

Just to make life easier, the Eastern Region also had a classification system which it applied to all diesel classes irrespective of whether they were based on the region.

[D7666]

The SR system of the thread subject is not really a "classification" system but drawing numbers.

 

OK you could argue anything is classification, but the SR drawing numbers were never really part of operating trains.

 

For example, before 1968 and the 2 digit class codes for locos, there was yet another BR system used for Diagrams that was seldom (never?) used by operators. It went something like DH/100x/y DE/200x/y etc where DH DE meant diesel hydraulic / electric, Type 1 1000 1001 1002 "classes", /y sub classes, 2000 3000 4000 for Type 2 3 4 and so on. There were diagram or drawing numbers not classifications. And the only reason it is rarely mentioned is no-one put a list in the IA ABC spitting books.

 

Then there is the replacement Diagram numbering like 470AV 470BX 470CX 473AX 474AX (I made those up) etc etc that also not listed in mainstream books so no-one uses them.

 

TBH I wish the ER system had never been ABC listed as too many people get hung up on it, it did not really offer anything of value putting it in those books. In practice it was quite short lived. No-one mentions the WR - for use in THEIR regional operating books, in the same way the ER used their system, that was D8XX D10XX D15XX D67XX D70XX etc exactly following kettles. It was no different in function to the ER system, yet, again, not in the IA ABCs so spotters never knew about it.

Edited May 31, 2023 by D7666

[D7666]

For different reasons the 15/20 mph 08 subject has a current tread running on wnxxforum.

 

New, to me,gen posted there is 08s were originally 20 mph then downrsted to 15 mph.

 

So it not a case that the BR SR 08s were modified, but that those are original and it be the rest modified.

[eastwestdivide]

On 29/05/2023 at 17:25, D7666 said:

The only full list I know of them in the public domain was from SEG in the old EMU stock books

I think those 2-letter+suffix codes on EMU and DEMU cars were in the RCTS stock books around the early 1980s, but against each class listing rather than as an A-Z list of codes. 

[D7666]

1 hour ago, eastwestdivide said:

I think those 2-letter+suffix codes on EMU and DEMU cars were in the RCTS stock books around the early 1980s, but against each class listing rather than as an A-Z list of codes. 

You might be right but I do not remember this if so.

 

These SR codes are certainly in the 1977 and 1983 RCTS loco stock books in the class data paragraphs. But - obviously - for a loco stock book, for locos only.

 

I am not aware of any contemporary equivalent RCTS EMU/DEMU book at all, never mind that went into such detail.

 

If there has been one , then that is a major omission on my part, and, I was an RCTS member from about 1976 to about 1996. They did produce hauled carriage stock books, but  EMU (or DMU of any flavour)I do not remember and have never seen if they exist.

 

Pre 1977 RCTS books were in a very different format, almost lacking any technical detail at all, merely listing number blocks and not individual items. (Not criticising, they were useful books in a way,still are, just commenting it was a very different format.)

Edited June 3, 2023 by D7666

[eastwestdivide]

Memory’s a funny thing. The RCTS coaching stock books included MUs. Here’s an extract from the 1982 RCTS book showing those AJ, BR, BS codes against the 4-REPs as mentioned above: 

Edited June 4, 2023 by eastwestdivide

[eastwestdivide]

Also, the Blood and Custard website includes those codes against individual types of MU (not sure how comprehensively as I only dipped in). Interestingly (well, interesting for some people!) this page on the 4-SUBs

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-4SUB.html

describes the codes as 

Quote

…later Southern Region electrical codes allocated in about 1963

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by eastwestdivide

[D7666]

Ta.

I can say for sure it not my memory - from that image I have never seen such a book as that layout is memorable. I can't forget something I had never seen before ! That is new gen to me. The wonders of these forums.

 

What I had forgot was Blood & Custard, which is actually pretty obvious in hindsight d'oh.

 

Must see if I can find a copy of that on the 2nd hand market.............