Help required finalising a GWR branch terminal design

[Longhaireddavid]

Hi everyone. When I stopped my HO US outline layout I charged into a plan to build a pseudo-Ashburton - i.e. like but not accurate. Now that I have the track laid out and a few of the buildings built, I have realised that I didn't make the board anywhere near large enough. I have to negotiate space in the living room with one end laying on my nice 2m x 1m height adjustable desk. What this means is that the current layout is 188cm long and the last 45cm sits on my desk. I then have a removable fiddle yard one track wide coming off. This fits on the rest of the desk as and when.

 

This can be seen in my image "desk 2.jpg"

 

 

I haven't build a British layout for years - well actually ever as I have always build US outline. In fact the final project for my OU degree was a program to manage freight car routing on a US outline layout!

 

This what I have for my failed Ashburton. Check out image "actual desk.jpg"

My wife has pointed out that, not only did I mess up the space for an Ashburton type train shed but also for a goods shed. Plus the reverse siding looping back from the goods shed was  hard to use as the head shunt into the goods shed was too short.

 

What she wants (and she is authorising the acres of land required by the GWR) is some houses and gardens plus a realistic station with cars and buses plus people and lights. The attached file called new one.jpg is my attempt on Anyrail. The large black areas to the left denote where the narrow support for the fiddle track comes off.

There plan is as follows:

Train 1 - auto train Panner 6421 with one auto coach - comes back and forth on a regular schedule.

Train 2 - Small Prairie 4562 brings a short goods train 3 - 4 times a day

Train 3 - auto train once a day with either 2 x 6-wheel milk or 1 x Siphon G for a creamery (not on plan)

Train 4 - once a week - GWR/BR Manor with 2 x coaches for holiday makers. Comes in and goes out again.

 

As and when I can get more locos this could be extended in loco variety.

I have an engine shed on e layout for a station pilot (which would ease the need for the Manor to do its own shunting). Not sure what to get for this role. An older pannier or something else - my GWR knowledge is very limited.

 

The fiddle board shows a point stretching over the join with the main board. This is obviously not going to work. In reality, there fidlle board will be extended so that it looks like double track into the station but will become single track neatly on the fiddle board.

 

For your information, the layout will be DCC with DCC Concepts point motors running through ESU Switch Pilot accessory controllers. The DCC is Digitrax. I am electrically, electronically and generally modelling capable. Because I am disabled (not able to walk too far or stand up for anything more than around 2 minutes, I build the layout from 5mm foam core (as I have done for years). It is structurally sound but very light so that I can lift the layout up and over to wire etc. without any real effort.

I would appreciate any comments so long as they are kind (unlike some I get on the US forums). I need ideas for the layout - corrections, amendments, etc. - and for the proposed traffic. I am electrically, electronically and generally modelling capable.   Please note that I am on a limited pensioner budget so some things may not be possible - for instance the Manor could be out of budget unless I can get a ring field motor one running under DCC.

 

 

 

 

[Kris]

The general layout looks to be fine. With train 3 I would be careful as to the loco. Milk tanks were heavy old things and might over tax the auto train loco. Also with this train how does the milk tank return (or arrive)?

[Longhaireddavid]

Last auto train in at night. first one out in the morning I should think. Loco is a 64XX so a "modern" pannier should be OK

[The Johnster]

In the interests of variety, I’d suggest making Train 3 loco-hauled rather than an auto.  If the branch can take a Manor, it can handle a 57xx or 8750 pannier and the new -Accurascale B set. 

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Do you really need two platforms, for the passenger service you envisage? I'd certainly include a cattle dock of some form, andperhaps an end loading dock too. Also a coal yard, though not necessarily with the timber staithes that nearly everyone includes, when in reality coal was often just left in piles in the yard.

[The Johnster]

I think the 'two platforms' are probably the result of the Ashburton influence, Peter.  The 'bottom' platform on the plan should be truncated about level with the start of the engine release crossover, and at Ashburton was used as a goods/parcels loading dock and, IIRC, the end loading facility.  

 

British goods yards normally had at least two roads David, one serving the goods shed and the other for coal and 'mileage' traffic (a condition of the Act of Parliament that authorised the railway was that it was obliged by law to accept any goods traffic offered at a fixe rate per mile fixed by government.  This traffic was known as 'mileage' and was loaded and unloaded by the customer or his employees.  The railways were keen to promote traffic in specialised vehicles, their own handling, and TBCF (to be called for), delivery, and door-to-door container services which were more profitable for them as they could charge higher rates).  The distance between these roads was usually enough for a normal horse and cart to turn in between them, eighteen feet, so the two roads in your goods yard do not fit the normal pattern.

 

1 hour ago, Longhaireddavid said:

Last auto train in at night. first one out in the morning I should think. Loco is a 64XX so a "modern" pannier should be OK

 

64xx were not really the most typical branch auto loco, that was the smaller 14xx.  The 64xx was a derivate of the 54xx, itself a modernised version of the previous 2021 class, but which had larger driving wheels and was designed for main line suburban commuter auto services; these were actually the majority of such trains. Neither 2021s nor 54xx were particularly powerful, but they were economic with light loads.  Having found the 54xx a bit challenged with two-trailer loads on the steeper branches of South Wales, the 64xx was provided.  The GW auto system allowed up to two trailers at either end of the loco, and when three-trailer 'sandwich' trains were needed for suburban work in South Wales in the 50s, a batch of 4575 class small prairies were provided with auto equipment to work them, as they were too much for the 64xx on some routes.  There was also a 74xx, basically a non-auto version of the 64xx, which was much more frequently used on branch lines, for both passenger and goods traffic, but this loco is not available RTR.

 

Miltas loaded up to 55tons (thick glass lining), hence the three axles, so a pair of them would be heavier than a two-coach auto train.  This is why Kris and myself are trying to steer you away from a 64xx for a train with loaded miltas as tail traffic.  The tanks were usually sent down from London late mornings, and arrived at the creameries for loading in mid or late afternoon.  The loaded tanks would be dispatched late afternoon or early evening for attaching to main line milk trains at the junctions that would arrive in London around midnight.  So for a branch as far west as to be influenced by/based on Ashburton, your suggested pattern of first train out last train in doesn't really fit the traffic.  A bigger loco from the junction shed would most probably be used and these generally weren't auto fitted, hence the loco-hauled stock suggestion.

 

6 hours ago, Longhaireddavid said:

I have an engine shed on e layout for a station pilot (which would ease the need for the Manor to do its own shunting). Not sure what to get for this role. An older pannier or something else - my GWR knowledge is very limited.

 

6 hours ago, Longhaireddavid said:

  Please note that I am on a limited pensioner budget so some things may not be possible - for instance the Manor could be out of budget unless I can get a ring field motor one running under DCC.

 

I'm on a limited pensioner budget myself, my friend, and believe me, I feel your pain and fully understand.  A branch like this would not have a dedicated station pilot, and the engine shed would house the principle branch loco, in your case the 64xx.  The Manor would do it's own shunting, which means the loco release headshunt has to be big enough for it or it won't be allocated to the working; the good news is yours looks big enough!  This is where the good news starts getting a bit thin, though, sadly. 

 

The 'ringfield' Manor you suggest sounds like the erstwhile 'Mainline' model, and this has a poisonous reputation as regards reliability, despite being a good looker.  The ringfield or pancake motor it used was pretty feeble, and had to run at high speed to develop any power, meaning that in order to prevent the loco emulating a moon rocket, it had to be geared down, and this was done with a series of plastic spur gears that were prone to splitting and having to be replaced.  That could be forgiven as a running cost at a push, but there was worse!  The loco employed a split chassis pickup system that dispensed with wiper pickups, good idea you think at first, but it needed plastic central stub axles to isolate the two sides of the wheelsets from each other, and the interface between the metal wheelstub axles and the plastic centre stub axles wore to the extent that the wheels went out of quarter, at which point the loco was effectively irrecoverably dead.  The receieved wisdom is to avoid this loco like the plague. 

 

The Mainline Manor (and the 43xx, which would suit you just as well and used the same mech) were eventually taken on by Bachmann, and the split chassis retained but retooled to take a can motor and worm-and-idler drive, which was much better.  If you intend to acquire a Manor or 43xx on the Bay of e, my advice would be to ensure that it is this later Bachmann version you get.  It is distinguishable by having NEM type tension-lock couplers, which are smaller and narrower than the Mainline type.  The above comments also apply to the Mainline-later-Bachmann 2251, which is also suitable for your branch and could handle some goods traffic as well.

 

As you are hobbled by lack of funds, I'll mention the Lima 4575.  A bit lacking in detail below the running plate, and a cab full of motor, but cheap and cheerful on the Bay.  The gearing is insanely fast but the loco can be controlled quite finely so long as everything is kept clean.

 

'An older pannier'; the only RTR example is the now obsolete Hornby 2721 class, with a half-cab.  Not the most scale of models, it uses a generic 0-6-0 chassis and is the wrong size and shape, but can be made into a reasonable 'layout model' with a Bachmann 57xx chassis and some detailing.  These lasted in service up to the early 1950s, and were originally rebuilt from saddle tanks, but are not really branch locos (to be fair, neither is my suggested 57xx/8750), too heavy. 

 

Which segues into DCC.  Can't really help you much with this, as I don't know much about it, can't afford it.  The Mainline/Bachmann locos are probably difficult as the chassis blocks leave very little room for shoehorning chips and speakers in; luckily these are tender locos.  DCC fitted Bachamn 64xx and 45xx are horribly expensive, but good models.  I understand Bachmann are regarded as a budget range on your side of the pond, but they have set a good standard here for highly detailed, and reliable models that run very smoothly and quietly, quality job, and have price tags to match...

 

Good luck and let us know of any developments!

[Flying Pig]

36 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

A branch like this would not have a dedicated station pilot, and the engine shed would house the principle branch loco, in your case the 64xx. 

 

How did that work if the loco was coupled to an autotrailer?

[DCB]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

How did that work if the loco was coupled to an autotrailer?

 

They uncoupled it,  Screw Coupling, Regulator rod, Vacuum pipe, Steam heating pipe, whistle chain, couple of minutes tops.  The Faringdon branch loco was regularly uncoupled from its auto coach for shunting and re coupled during a day's duties, though the Ashburton branch seems to have used a single non auto fitted brake coach when the branch passenger loco  was rostered to haul the daily freight as well.   It was B sets which were permanently coupled together by a solid bar not Auto coaches. 

 

The 64XX tended to pick up their auto coaches from carriage sidings and Plymouth Laira had special sidings so the 64XX could couple two to the front and set back to coupe a further two behind,  A 64XX and a single Auto coach was a rarity, they were generally used on heavier trains, 4 coach Plymouuth Area, and 2 coach in the heavily graded welsh valleys.

 

Most branch line station pilot work was done by train engines or a bloke or two pushing and pry barring wagons about.    A small shunter scurrying around is a model railway cliche.    Manors were not branch locos,  Secondary main lines, single track, Blue routes Cambrian, MSWJR, Banbury to Cheltenham were their haunts,  but they were found on 3 coach trains, albeit often on rosters which saw a return on a long 20/30/40  wagon freights..

9 hours ago, Longhaireddavid said:

There plan is as follows:

 

 

Train 1 - auto train Panner 6421 with one auto coach - comes back and forth on a regular schedule.

Train 2 - Small Prairie 4562 brings a short goods train 3 - 4 times a day

Train 3 - auto train once a day with either 2 x 6-wheel milk or 1 x Siphon G for a creamery (not on plan)

Train 4 - once a week - GWR/BR Manor with 2 x coaches for holiday makers. Comes in and goes out again.

More like 

Train 1 - auto train  - comes back and forth a few times a day (Mon- Fri, a couple more Sat and Market Day,  a couple or 3 times on a Sunday if you're lucky) connecting with main line trains  (usually a 14XX)

Train 2 - Small Prairie 4562 brings a  goods train 3 - 4 times a Week swaps incoming wagons for outgoing goes away again.  Usually Auto is at the other end of the line while this is happening.

Train 3 - once a day Mon- Sunday swaps  empty  6-wheel milk Tanks for fulls and returns full tanks to junction. (Never seen Milks Tanks on an Auto train, usually Brake 2nd or Brake Comp and a lot more than 2 tanks)

Train 4 - once a year - 57XX with 2 x Corridor coaches (for lavatory facilities hopefully) takes Sunday School to Bristol Zoo, or Wells Cathedral or Cheddar Caves.

 My branch can handle 4 coach passenger and 15 wagon goods so my son sends down 20 wagon goods which is ...... challenging.

[DCB]

9 hours ago, Longhaireddavid said:

My wife has pointed out that, not only did I mess up the space for an Ashburton type train shed but also for a goods shed. Plus the reverse siding looping back from the goods shed was  hard to use as the head shunt into the goods shed was too short.

 

What she wants (and she is authorising the acres of land required by the GWR) is some houses and gardens plus a realistic station with cars and buses plus people and lights. The attached file called new one.jpg is my attempt on Anyrail. The large black areas to the left denote where the narrow support for the fiddle track comes off.

 

 

 

It's not easy to fit houses and gardens around a GWR BLT.  Usually the station building was at the side of the platform, Bodmin was at the end  but that's the only one I can think of.  The station was usually some way from the village and had a road either crossing  the line or across behind the buffers.  Houses were tight against the railway fence in towns like Weymouth but  not in the country areas ,a Stationmaster's house and a Pub  was about it within the area usually covered by a model railway baseboard.   I would move the buffers to the right and put the station building along the platform, but  that removes the space for the goods shed..

The goods shed is difficult, often it was down the line from the terminus platform and on a long siding so wagons could be pulled in and pushed out by man power without reversing as wagons were unloaded in turn.  Often the goods shed was on a loop, but always they were wide, track, loading platform and space for a road wagon, which needed to turn round, three tracks wide minimum, 6" in 00, 9" is better.     Cinderford had its goods shed parallel to the platform with a run round road between the platform road and the goods shed road.   Minehead had/ has its goods shed parallel to one platform opposite to the station building which sits beyond the long bay platform.    Not easy

[Harlequin]

Hi David (the OP),

You say that the failed Ashburton board is 188cm long. How long is the new plan, excluding the fiddle stick? (It's difficult to tell from the AnyRail plan.)

Can the layout be operated from both sides when it's set up? Or only the top of the AnyRail plan or only the bottom?

Are you planning to have a backscene?

 

[Longhaireddavid]

3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hi David (the OP),

You say that the failed Ashburton board is 188cm long. How long is the new plan, excluding the fiddle stick? (It's difficult to tell from the AnyRail plan.)

Can the layout be operated from both sides when it's set up? Or only the top of the AnyRail plan or only the bottom?

Are you planning to have a backscene?

 

The main board is still 188cm. The layout will be up against the display cabinets so operating from the front.

[Longhaireddavid]

Oh my. Too much to think about. It is easier in US outline as you can just freelance your own railroad and no-one can tell you that you are wrong - there appears to be a precedent for everything over there.

 

I am stuck with my current two locos. I have the budget for another loco and two coaches (c £270 shall we say). After that I am on a monthly spend of around £70. 

 

Thank you to everyone for your detailed comments but I think that I am going to have to leap out into fairy land and work with what I have which means a lot of unrealistic operation but there's not much I can do about that. 

 

In reality I am more bothered about the workability of the track plan rather than its closeness to reality. The pseudo-Ashburton that I layed the track for was never going to work so I want to avoid that mistake again. 

 

Summary

Forget the Manor for now. Get a 14xx for the auto train. Get a couple of normal coaches (??) to go with the 64XX. Adjust the timetable according to advice above. Turn the station into a semi-Ashburton with one platform and the other with a cattle dock and parcels. Keep the engine shed but only intra-day use. I haven't found where to put the creamery which I must have as I have two milk tanks.  Not sure how to sort out the station building as I have one built but for Ashburton - which means single story with the land all up to platform height.  I can shorten it and make some steps I would think. I have more to consider but this is all I can come up with for now.

[Mike_Walker]

A couple of observations on the above.

 

Firstly, the 64xx and 4 trailer "Auto sandwiches" in the Plymouth area often trailed a pair of milk tanks although the photos I've seen these have been westbounds therefore empty.  At Marlow, the loco routinely went on shed with the trailer attached both for water during the day (the tank at Marlow was the only water source on the branch) and sometimes overnight too.  They used to shunt the yard with the trailer attached.

 

In addition to Bodmin I can think of Henley, Woodstock, Uxbridge Vine Street, Windsor and Staines West where the station building was at the end of track (although the latter was originally a house that pre-dated the railway) and I'm sure there were others.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

The creamery could be off-stage, David, with the milk tanks being worked into the station, then out again. 

Not every terminus needs an engine shed; often there's more "play value" from having an extra goods siding than one tied-up with loco facilities.

Attached is the plan of my little terminus - based on Midland Railway/LMS rather than GW though...  No engine shed and just the one platform.

[Harlequin]

29 minutes ago, Longhaireddavid said:

The main board is still 188cm. The layout will be up against the display cabinets so operating from the front.

OK, I'll assume that the front is the bottom of the AnyRail plan.

 

In which case, you have to reach over the platform and any passenger trains to couple/uncouple goods wagons. And when shunting the yard, those sidings are furthest away from you.

 

So why not flip the plan over so that the platform is at the back and the yard at the front? Or turn the board 180° so that the fiddle stick is on the right?

 

 

[Longhaireddavid]

13 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

OK, I'll assume that the front is the bottom of the AnyRail plan.

 

In which case, you have to reach over the platform and any passenger trains to couple/uncouple goods wagons. And when shunting the yard, those sidings are furthest away from you.

 

So why not flip the plan over so that the platform is at the back and the yard at the front? Or turn the board 180° so that the fiddle stick is on the right?

 

 

Can't have the fiddle stick anywhere else. I will have a look at flipping the plan.

 

In the meantime, I have been messing around with the layout with the idea to a) simplify and b) get a creamery in.  The main platform will be adjusted to the length of whatever train I end up with. Here goes. Comments please.

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Longhaireddavid

[Steven B]

The good provision in the first plan was better. With the latest revision, any wagons left at the cattle dock or parcels platform will block the run-round loop. Similarly, any coal wagons being unloaded will prevent milk tankers from accessing the creamery.

 

The cross over accessing the run-round loop should probably be flipped so that the loco reverses into the loop - this would allow wagons to be loaded/unloaded in the stub siding.

 

Have a think about the size of the town/village you're serving. Having a dedicated parcels platform on a small village station is unlikely - the parcels office in the station building would be enough for most stations.

 

Have a look at Hemyock (the basis of Croydon MRS Hemlock) - it features much of what you want.

https://hemyock.org/mediagallery/album.php?aid=4&sort=0

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/the-hemyock-branch.html has some photos including a 14xx with a pair of loaded milk tankers and a couple of coaches.

 

Torrington is another worthy of further investigation - it handled the loading of milk tankers three at a time at a spot on the goods shed siding, but beyond the shed where locos wouldn't be allowed. 

https://svsfilm.com/nineelms/torr.htm

 

Creameries/Dairys were quite large - you're going to struggle to fit one into the space you have. Torrington's was away from the station with milk tripped to the station yard in road tanks.

 

Steven B

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Longhaireddavid said:

Oh my. Too much to think about. It is easier in US outline as you can just freelance your own railroad and no-one can tell you that you are wrong - there appears to be a precedent for everything over there.

 

I am stuck with my current two locos. I have the budget for another loco and two coaches (c £270 shall we say). After that I am on a monthly spend of around £70. 

 

Thank you to everyone for your detailed comments but I think that I am going to have to leap out into fairy land and work with what I have which means a lot of unrealistic operation but there's not much I can do about that. 

 

In reality I am more bothered about the workability of the track plan rather than its closeness to reality. The pseudo-Ashburton that I layed the track for was never going to work so I want to avoid that mistake again. 

 

Summary

Forget the Manor for now. Get a 14xx for the auto train. Get a couple of normal coaches (??) to go with the 64XX. Adjust the timetable according to advice above. Turn the station into a semi-Ashburton with one platform and the other with a cattle dock and parcels. Keep the engine shed but only intra-day use. I haven't found where to put the creamery which I must have as I have two milk tanks.  Not sure how to sort out the station building as I have one built but for Ashburton - which means single story with the land all up to platform height.  I can shorten it and make some steps I would think. I have more to consider but this is all I can come up with for now.

 

Normal coaches?

 

Look at the bargain bins of the major retailers as the Hornby GWR non corridor coaches in both GWR and BR liveries have been available for a good price recently.

 

Should still be a few lurking about for about £25 each.

 

 

Jason

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Here's my take, though not sure if you'd have enough space.

Remember, not every terminus has an engine shed or, indeed a goods shed. But I'd say a coal siding and cattle pens are more important. Coal above all...

The GW were very fond of having a diamond crossing over the run-round loop; appears in quite a number of their termini.  

[Mike_Walker]

They wouldn't have put a diamond there, instead there would be a simple point off the loop.  The idea of using diamonds was to keep the number of facing points on a passenger line to a minimum.  Moretonhampstead was such a location where the yard was accessed from the loop which was on the opposite side of the running line to the yard.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

3 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

They wouldn't have put a diamond there, instead there would be a simple point off the loop.  The idea of using diamonds was to keep the number of facing points on a passenger line to a minimum.  Moretonhampstead was such a location where the yard was accessed from the loop which was on the opposite side of the running line to the yard.

Oops. Yep, I had a senior moment there, Mike. As you say, the diamond would've been across the passenger line...  Nice touch for GW layouts, when applicable, though.

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Take Two...

The engine shed and creamery could swap positions...

[Mike_Walker]

That's better...  🙂

[Harlequin]

31 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Take Two...

The engine shed and creamery could swap positions...

Moretonhampstead - with a creamery and an extra back siding. 😃

 

The problem is that the OP only has 188cm to play with so the extra length taken up by the diamond is rather costly.

 

In many places this kind of formation was simplified later in the life of the station when FPLs were trusted to be reliable.

 

[Longhaireddavid]

OK so I have had one more go. I have used a couple of small radius points to get it all to fit.

 

The plan shows the engine shed just coming over onto the fiddle stick. That will have to be sorted. I think that I am happy with this one so time to start tearing the last one down.