Hornby 2023 annual results

[Guest]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

The exact market Simon wanted - not aware of other alternatives and kept within the Hornby ecosphere on the website.

 

Of course these days those users of the website do include those who live outside the bubble with knowledge of Peco and Tillig so perhaps the bubble will burst.  With bricks and mortar shops now beginning to stock TT the bubble will be well and truly burst.

I was looking at the Tillig system in Scarm the other day and might mix and match with Hornby. Double slips, scissors crossovers etc could be useful. Still struggling to work out the equivalent radius of the Tillig curved points crossover example that Tillig provide & how that might be incorporated into a loop. 
A big improvement in the Hornby TT rail system is the std points have R6 curve rather than R2(?) in OO. 

[Ravenser]

6 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

I was looking at the Tillig system in Scarm the other day and might mix and match with Hornby. Double slips, scissors crossovers etc could be useful. Still struggling to work out the equivalent radius of the Tillig curved points crossover example that Tillig provide & how that might be incorporated into a loop. 
A big improvement in the Hornby TT rail system is the std points have R6 curve rather than R2(?) in OO. 

 

Given that the Continental TT market under the Arnoldf brand will be a very important part of the total sales for the , it pretty well has to be compatible with Tillig, the dominant brand in Continental TT . Certainly I've heard that the geometry of Hornby's trackwork is closely based on Tillig . 

 

This means that people buying Arnold TT stock no longer have to go down the road to Tillig to get track to run it on...

[1andrew1]

On 07/07/2023 at 08:19, Fireline said:

I think that changed when they got rid of the "Woolworths" management team....

I don't think it has.  It's not been mentioned in Hornby's quite detailed annual report. In its latest accounts, it says Hornby Hobbies Limited is "engaged in the development, design, sourcing and distribution of models" whilst the European subsidiaries are described as "distributors of models."

[Robin Brasher]

Hornby's subsidiary Corgi is now selling reproduction Dinky Toys produced by Norev through the Corgi Model Club so it has branched out to improve Hornby's financial situation. 

[1andrew1]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

Hornby's subsidiary Corgi is now selling reproduction Dinky Toys produced by Norev through the Corgi Model Club so it has branched out to improve Hornby's financial situation. 

Confusingly, the Corgi Model Club is not owned by Hornby. Hornby licences the brand name to a small independent company called Blue 14 D2C Ltd. So, I doubt Hornby benefits from the deal between Norev and Blue 14 D2C t/a as the Corgi Model Club.

https://corgimodelclub.com/pages/about-us

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/11552224

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by 1andrew1

[Legend]

On 07/07/2023 at 11:11, woodenhead said:

A last hurrah from Simon

 

And he promised the HS2 trains from Hornby too!

Hmm . Very interesting . I hadn’t seen that . Yes SK does seem to suggest that Hornby will be producing the new HS2 sets , at the very end .  I suppose they’ve given us Eurostars . Pendolinos and  IETs so would make sense .  

[Guest]

On 06/07/2023 at 11:19, jonnyuk said:

How much of this is because it's Hornby? I suspect majority of it. If one of the new boys (if you read my other posts you can guess who i mean) had started tt:120 i would almost bet my house on it be lauded, fanfare, party poppers, lots of arse kissing.  This forum is not the barometer for the hobby, it's a small glass house.

My exact thoughts as well!😎👍

 

Also if had it been one of the said-new boys, as opposed to Hornby, you would likely be reading about how OO was "dead and buried" and would take Hornby with it. The hypocrisy would be overwhelming 🙃

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Guest

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Legend said:

Hmm . Very interesting . I hadn’t seen that . Yes SK does seem to suggest that Hornby will be producing the new HS2 sets , at the very end .  I suppose they’ve given us Eurostars . Pendolinos and  IETs so would make sense .  

I wonder which of those have made a profit if the number of APT 'add-on' sets now being sold at a discount are any guide?

[The Stationmaster]

BTW I have heard, from an impeccable source - that another 'retirement' is looming at Hornby.   Comment in the Annual Report, when it's published in September. regarding staff numbers might make interesting reading?  And give a further indication of the direction in which the new broom is heading?

[Widnes Model Centre]

50 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

BTW I have heard, from an impeccable source - that another 'retirement' is looming at Hornby.   Comment in the Annual Report, when it's published in September. regarding staff numbers might make interesting reading?  And give a further indication of the direction in which the new broom is heading?

Is this Tim Mulhall?

[asmay2002]

On 06/07/2023 at 12:25, Clearwater said:

If the hypothesis is that the best sellers for Hornby are the "I'll buy him a train set as he retires market now he's got time" then the age of those people retiring are now the ones increasingly for whom their railway salad days were 1968-1980 (a 10 year old in 1968 is 65 and even a 10 year old in 1980 is now 53).

You're making a huge assumption that most people want to model what they remember from when they were trainspotters.  This is increasingly not the case. The 1968-1980 period on Britain's railways was depressingly awful and turned people, including trainspotters, away in droves. (I'm from this demographic and wouldn't model BR from that era if it was the last railway on earth).  Secondly, the number of trainspotters declined hugely from its 1950s heyday so there aren't so many of them coming through anyway.   Modellers are increasingly divided into Nostalgia modellers (mostly ex trainspotters) and what might be called historical modellers, modelling things that they never saw for real but want to recreate.  The popularity of pre-grouping liveries is evidence of this - nobody remembers them first hand but they are attactive.  The lack of pre-grouping modelling until relatively recently was I think because most didn't feel that they had the skill to produce it.  That there was supressed demand came through clearly in a survey on this forum a few years back. There is a bit of a crossover with younger people's first contact with steam having come via a preserved railway.

[Clearwater]

9 hours ago, asmay2002 said:

You're making a huge assumption that most people want to model what they remember from when they were trainspotters.  This is increasingly not the case. The 1968-1980 period on Britain's railways was depressingly awful and turned people, including trainspotters, away in droves. (I'm from this demographic and wouldn't model BR from that era if it was the last railway on earth).  Secondly, the number of trainspotters declined hugely from its 1950s heyday so there aren't so many of them coming through anyway.   Modellers are increasingly divided into Nostalgia modellers (mostly ex trainspotters) and what might be called historical modellers, modelling things that they never saw for real but want to recreate.  The popularity of pre-grouping liveries is evidence of this - nobody remembers them first hand but they are attactive.  The lack of pre-grouping modelling until relatively recently was I think because most didn't feel that they had the skill to produce it.  That there was supressed demand came through clearly in a survey on this forum a few years back. There is a bit of a crossover with younger people's first contact with steam having come via a preserved railway.

 

As you’ve selectively quoted my post, I think you’re missing my point.  I am pointing out that the “heyday” period, ans you call it,  are now no longer forming the main cohort of retirees and that could/should change where the starter train set market should be pitched.  I suspect we’ll see more 70s/80s scene as that generation reaches “nostalgia” phase with an rtr market to match.  I’ve argued before that if you’re a “historic” modeller going back before your own memory, why wouldn’t you go back to a more colourful era?  In 20 years, the number of people with a clear memory of the 1950s, will be very small. Similar to those who as primary school age children will remember the pre war Railway.
 

Youre equally making a massive generalisation of your own in projecting your own view on the 1970s railway scene onto the market as a whole.  Look at layouts like Black Country Blues or Hornsey Broadway as examples of popular successful layouts channeling that run down blue diesel era scene.  I think Charwelton at the recent Stoke Mandeville show was drawing very good crowds…  Or the number of Facebook groups on the 1970s railway scene..  I’ll wager they’re more likely to see a Deltic starter set as interesting over an A1 or a pretty pre grouping loco.  Of course, like all generalisations, there are exceptions.  
 

Equally there are fashions in Railway modelling as in everything else.  Increased availability of pregrouping liveries will show an increase in people wanting/using that stock.  Ditto currently I’d venture for oo9 layouts driven by the improvement in suitable rtr,.  Or 40 years ago the GWR BLT staple/cliche.  Will a 1960s layout be seen as an outdated cliche in 15/20 years?
 

I agree the preservation era impacts what people will remember.  Perhaps the current trend for fictional steam Loco liveries partially reflects? 

[adb968008]

I still say the future if the hobby needs to look to the future of railways.

if you keep turning the clock back, it will eventually break.

 

if Lima hadnt made what they did in the 1990’s I suspect the hobby would be in a much worse place today.

 

We are told that manufacturers are struggling to make “today” saying its too expensive or too small demand… yet go out and duplicate each others toolings, reproduce other recent toolings, in some cases triplicate them… I fail to see anything beyond unicorns blood in that… each run you cut your future life in half for a short term quick win… if the tide goes out, your shorts become exposed.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by adb968008

[asmay2002]

22 hours ago, Clearwater said:

As you’ve selectively quoted my post, I think you’re missing my point.  I am pointing out that the “heyday” period, ans you call it,  are now no longer forming the main cohort of retirees and that could/should change where the starter train set market should be pitched.  I suspect we’ll see more 70s/80s scene as that generation reaches “nostalgia” phase with an rtr market to match.  I’ve argued before that if you’re a “historic” modeller going back before your own memory, why wouldn’t you go back to a more colourful era?  In 20 years, the number of people with a clear memory of the 1950s, will be very small. Similar to those who as primary school age children will remember the pre war Railway.
 

Youre equally making a massive generalisation of your own in projecting your own view on the 1970s railway scene onto the market as a whole.  Look at layouts like Black Country Blues or Hornsey Broadway as examples of popular successful layouts channeling that run down blue diesel era scene.  I think Charwelton at the recent Stoke Mandeville show was drawing very good crowds…  Or the number of Facebook groups on the 1970s railway scene..  I’ll wager they’re more likely to see a Deltic starter set as interesting over an A1 or a pretty pre grouping loco.  Of course, like all generalisations, there are exceptions.  
 

Equally there are fashions in Railway modelling as in everything else.  Increased availability of pregrouping liveries will show an increase in people wanting/using that stock.  Ditto currently I’d venture for oo9 layouts driven by the improvement in suitable rtr,.  Or 40 years ago the GWR BLT staple/cliche.  Will a 1960s layout be seen as an outdated cliche in 15/20 years?
 

I agree the preservation era impacts what people will remember.  Perhaps the current trend for fictional steam Loco liveries partially reflects? 

The point is that there are nowhere near the number of spotters from the 1970s/80s compared to the 50s/60s so the people that you think will come through just don't exist in the same numbers.  I'm not saying that there won't be any nostalgia modellers doing this period, more that the balance will shift away from nostalgia modelling.  This is born out by hard numbers from surveys not just my  personal views. 

[Ravenser]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I still say the future if the hobby needs to look to the future of railways.

if you keep turning the clock back, it will eventually break.

 

if Lima hadnt made what they did in the 1990’s I suspect the hobby would be in a much worse place today.

 

We are told that manufacturers are struggling to make “today” saying its too expensive or too small demand… yet go out and duplicate each others toolings, reproduce other recent toolings, in some cases triplicate them… I fail to see anything beyond unicorns blood in that… each run you cut your future life in half for a short term quick win… if the tide goes out, your shorts become exposed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 10/07/2023 at 11:14, The Stationmaster said:

I wonder which of those have made a profit if the number of APT 'add-on' sets now being sold at a discount are any guide?

 

Those two posts pull in opposite directions....

 

Firstly , any new type 5 loco is immediately jumped on . Bachmann are doing the 69s, Revolution the 93s, Dapol did the 68s.. This is almost the only source of new subjects with meaningful sales potential . All of these have got to be a lot more promising than a Newton Chambers car carrier (And licencing excluides you facing duplication)

 

The problem is multiple units. Bachmann can't be bothered reviving their well regarded Voyagers . Nobody feels like doing a 120. Hornby tweaked their 4-VEP, but otherwise its almost a decade since anyone did a new 4 car EMU in 4mm I think?

 

Once you get into long high-speed EMUS it's even more difficult and Hornby are the only people with a serious track record in the field.  The Stationmaster questions whether any of these models made commercial sense. I share the doubt about whether Simon Kohler was wise to give the dreamers of the DJM threads their heart's desire at the expense of Hornby's tooling budget by doing an APT. But I do have to take note that the demand seems to be there for them to have done a second run, even if coaches from the first run have ended up in the bargain bin, This is more than anyone would dare to do for the hapless Hornby D16/3 - a model for which nobody had a word of criticism when it came out (It's just that nobody actually wanted to buy one). Rapido seem to have got away with their APT-E as well.

 

We obviously don't know the commercial results of these models. But Hornby aim them at the trainset market - they've had a " modern high speed train" set ijn the range for about 40 years. The Pendolino filled that slot for a number of years and has now been displaced by the IET. The Pendolino was explicitly not a "full-fat" model, although it was pretty respectable and vastly better than Dapol's short-lived botch. Hornby also did seperate coaches to allow you to build up a full length rake , and enough people wanted to do it for an extended debate about how far the motor bogie was up to the job (Someone I knew had a full length set , and we threw it around the abortive club project at speed a few times with my Voyager in the other direction, so I can confirm the motor bogie would do the job on the flat) . Given the sales in sets this one ought to have washed its face , and probably the same applies to the IET which ought to have a long life in the trainset market.

 

The Eurostar was done after sales of the Joeuf HO one suggested there was a market , and Hornby did not do more than a single intermediate coach pack. You had to resort to etches from Hurst for that. It appeared in sets and train packs over some years in two liveries

 

The APT certainly and possibly the Eurostar and maybe even the Pendolino may fall into a category along with things like Tornado, Duke of Gloucester and the W1 : exotic subjects done to Railroad standard to keep down the cost , which probasbly cover their costs but don't have much re-run potential and may not generate a big return . The IET , since it is in use on much of the network, is  a better bet and it's not surprising Hornby have pencilled it in for TT:120

 

But the fact Hornby have kept a "modern high-speed trainset" in their set range  for 40 years points to these things being a commercial success

 

 

[Johan DC]

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

....W1 : exotic subjects done to Railroad standard to keep down the cost , 

 

But the fact Hornby have kept a "modern high-speed trainset" in their set range  for 40 years points to these things being a commercial success

 

 

I wouldn't say the W1 is Railroad standard. 

But I agree with the above, and you even didn't mention the upcoming Flirt. Not high speed, but a brand new EMU (ok, technically EDMU of BMU).