How was (for example) "28xx" pronounced in GWR days?

[The Johnster]

Canton men, almost entirely GW/WR, in the 70s when I worked on the railway, referred to GW steam engines as ‘twenty-eights’, ‘forty-nines’ &c, or the full four digits when needed, such as ‘sixty-nine-fifty-nines’.  Castles were ‘five thousands (even those in the 4073-99 and 7000-37 blocks) and Hawksworth Counties were ‘thousands’.  BR standards were ‘seventy thousands’, ‘seventy-five thousands’, and so on. 
 

Pre-TOPS diesels were ‘dee seventies’, ‘dee sixty-eights’ (including the D69xx and D66xx blocks), but Brush Type 4s were ‘Sulzers’ and the Peak classes were ‘Cromptons’, even those that weren’t.  Class names like Warships, Westerns, or Hymeks were used as well as the ‘dee-whatever’ usage, but less frequently.  I never heard a railwayman refer to a Brush, and Peaks were only the original 2,300hp locos.  350hp were simply called ‘shunting engines’. 
 

They took to TOPS like ducks to water, but Hymeks were not really taken up as ‘thirty-fives’; none lasted long enough to carry TOPS numbers, nor did dee eight hundreds or dee sixty-threes.  Westerns, thousands, did survive long enough to be ‘fifty-twos’, though the previous terms for all classes remained in vernacular use.  
 

‘Cromptons’ is an odd one, used on the Southern for what became Class 33 by the time they appeared at Canton.  Pre-TOPS, Bath Road men called their Peaks ‘Cromptons’, as did Gloucester, and Saltley knew what you meant when they heard the term. Bath Road and Westbury called the Southern engines ‘dee sixty-fives’.  31s were ‘Mirlees’. 
 

This is an interesting facet of both professional and enthusiast railway culture, and varied geographically in both cases. Nicknames were not much used on the WR, an exception being Teddy Bears (and much less repeatable epithets).   I did hear ‘hotpoints’ for 25s, though; there was a round viewing window for the oil filter (or something) in the engine casing which was said to be the origin of this but more thsn one driver claimed it was because Hotpoint twin-tubs were better at pulling trains…  Class 50s were Hoovers, because of the noo-noo noise in the cab. 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by The Johnster

[flockandroll]

I have read that (at least some) ex-GWR footplate men at Mollington Street (Birkenhead) referred to the LNWR  designed 0-8-0s nick-named "Super D" as "Stupid D".

[Morello Cherry]

I am not sure if this is related or not but something that has puzzled me is the use of the article when someone is talking about an engine. I was reminded of it watching one of the Ffestiniog's Moving Picture videos and the CME when referring to an engine used  the Lyd, the Linda, the Prince, etc.  I remember hearing it used on the FfR many years ago by others. I wouldn't use the article I'd say Prince/Clan Line etc but should I be? Is it some Ffestiniogism? A regionalism? Should it be the Hinton Manor/ the  Defiant / the 2809?

 

At 5 minutes or so in.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Morello Cherry

[MarkC]

4 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

I am not sure if this is related or not but something that has puzzled me is the use of the article when someone is talking about an engine. I was reminded of it watching one of the Ffestiniog's Moving Picture videos and the CME when referring to an engine used  the Lyd, the Linda, the Prince, etc.  I remember hearing it used on the FfR many years ago by others. I wouldn't use the article I'd say Prince/Clan Line etc but should I be? Is it some Ffestiniogism? A regionalism? Should it be the Hinton Manor/ the  Defiant / the 2809?

The same mindset that, for example, refers to HM war canoes as "The HMS xxxx"...

 

Just. Stop. It.

 

Mark

[Wickham Green too]

Yeah - "the Her Majesty's Ship" doesn't sound right ................................. I know it should be HIS Majesty's Ship now - but I've not got used to THAT sounding right yet !

 

Then, away from Grey Funnel Line, it would have been quite acceptable to talk about "the QE2" or "the Canberra" ........

[Andy Kirkham]

I'm sure I remember people referring to "The Concorde", as if there was only one of them.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

11 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

I am not sure if this is related or not but something that has puzzled me is the use of the article when someone is talking about an engine. I was reminded of it watching one of the Ffestiniog's Moving Picture videos and the CME when referring to an engine used  the Lyd, the Linda, the Prince, etc.  I remember hearing it used on the FfR many years ago by others. I wouldn't use the article I'd say Prince/Clan Line etc but should I be? Is it some Ffestiniogism? A regionalism? Should it be the Hinton Manor/ the  Defiant / the 2809?

 

At 5 minutes or so in.

 

 

The first locomotives on the Ffestiniog Railway were "The Princess" and "The Prince". Many staff were aware of this, and so using "the" might have been something of an affectation. I can't say I recall "the" being much used with locomotives' real names, apart from "the Earl (of Meirioneth)", but it was usual with nicknames. "The Square", "the Melv", "the Ricket", "the Niv" and "the Alco" were all in common use in the 1980s, and I don't think any of these were used without "the". When David Lloyd George appeared, it was often called "the DLG".

 

Use of articles with names is a fascinating subject (or a tedious one, depending on your perspective), and it is often discussed on a language forum I belong to, where we try to assist English learners. Although there are a few general guidelines (seas and rivers have "the" but lakes don't, for example), in reality there are so many exceptions that it is difficult to come up with any rules.

 

However, it is reasonably common for formal names not to include "the", even when it is invariably spoken ("Royal Albert Hall", for example), to the extent that when "the" is included in the name it is sometimes regarded as a mistake (and might be why the Ffestiniog Railway's "Prince" and "Princess" got new nameplates quite early on). I recall reading accounts from the early days of locomotives where writers were clearly unsure whether to use "the" (as with ships) or not, but by the late nineteenth century, the general consensus seems to have been not to use "the", although the general public continued to have difficulty distinguishing between things like "Flying Scotsman" (the locomotive) and "the Flying Scotsman" (the daily train between London and Edinburgh), and this continues today.

 

It might also be worth noting that professional sailors often don't use "the" for ships when the general public do.

[JimC]

5 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

I'm sure I remember people referring to "The Concorde", as if there was only one of them.

But more often without an article at all, which is even wierder.

[Steamport Southport]

On 12/07/2023 at 14:06, kevinlms said:

A lot of anomalies with the LMS numbering system - largely because they didn't have enough gaps.

 

The classic examples were 2F and 3F 0-6-0s. When they got sent to workshops, they received the next available boiler. This sometimes meant that a 3F loco got downgraded to a 2F, or a 2F became a 3F.

 

But because of no gaps, they kept the same number and were now out of sequence. Very common, so the number told you nothing about it's power class.

 

No such problem with any 7P's though, they kept their block numbers.

 

What I mean is there is no system.

 

You couldn't tell what type of locomotive they were just by the number. On some railways you could.

 

The LNER for example spent quite a lot of effort on renumbering them into a coherent system and had planned on going further until Nationalisation got in the way.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_locomotive_numbering_and_classification#1946_Renumbering

 

 

Jason

[kevinlms]

30 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

What I mean is there is no system.

 

You couldn't tell what type of locomotive they were just by the number. On some railways you could.

 

The LNER for example spent quite a lot of effort on renumbering them into a coherent system and had planned on going further until Nationalisation got in the way.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_locomotive_numbering_and_classification#1946_Renumbering

 

 

Jason

Oh, I agree the LNER system was much better than the LMS system. But what the LMS had (an enlarged version of the Midland scheme) was far better than the old LNWR method of using old numbers, from the lowest upwards. Few locos had numbers in blocks and those that were, contained 'new' or additional numbers.

 

The LNER system, was also quite good at separating sub classes, with important differences (especially boiler and valve gear differences).

[Jim Martin]

On the Great Central, which is the company I know best, new wagons would be numbered either in blocks or inserted into gaps in existing number series. This was basically an accounting-driven distinction: stock charged to revenue - essentially replacements (in theory, at least) for worn-out stock - reused old numbers; while stock charged to capital - which actually increased the company's capacity to shift traffic - took new numbers. 

 

Did companies do the same thing with locomotives?

[Morello Cherry]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

The first locomotives on the Ffestiniog Railway were "The Princess" and "The Prince". Many staff were aware of this, and so using "the" might have been something of an affectation. I can't say I recall "the" being much used with locomotives' real names, apart from "the Earl (of Meirioneth)", but it was usual with nicknames. "The Square", "the Melv", "the Ricket", "the Niv" and "the Alco" were all in common use in the 1980s, and I don't think any of these were used without "the". When David Lloyd George appeared, it was often called "the DLG".

 

Use of articles with names is a fascinating subject (or a tedious one, depending on your perspective), and it is often discussed on a language forum I belong to, where we try to assist English learners. Although there are a few general guidelines (seas and rivers have "the" but lakes don't, for example), in reality there are so many exceptions that it is difficult to come up with any rules.

 

However, it is reasonably common for formal names not to include "the", even when it is invariably spoken ("Royal Albert Hall", for example), to the extent that when "the" is included in the name it is sometimes regarded as a mistake (and might be why the Ffestiniog Railway's "Prince" and "Princess" got new nameplates quite early on). I recall reading accounts from the early days of locomotives where writers were clearly unsure whether to use "the" (as with ships) or not, but by the late nineteenth century, the general consensus seems to have been not to use "the", although the general public continued to have difficulty distinguishing between things like "Flying Scotsman" (the locomotive) and "the Flying Scotsman" (the daily train between London and Edinburgh), and this continues today.

 

It might also be worth noting that professional sailors often don't use "the" for ships when the general public do.

 

I am not a Welsh speaker so I don't know but would you use the article in Welsh? In German you would talk (sometimes) of die Linda when talking of a person called Linda.

 

It is strange - I would use the Alco, but not the Mountaineer. The Hunslet(s) but not the Linda. I wouldn't say 'I am going to ride on the Tal-y-llyn behind the Tal-y-Llyn'. I did ask someone who is a philologist and they suggested that the article is used when you consider the thing to be inanimate rather than animate. (ie company or class is inanimate, engine is animate).

[Wickham Green too]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

... The LNER system, was also quite good at separating sub classes, with important differences (especially boiler and valve gear differences).

But they were also very good at fitting a different type of boiler during overhauls !

[JimC]

5 hours ago, Jim Martin said:

Did companies do the same thing with locomotives?

The early GWR system certainly worked like that. Renewals, which were replacements for existing locomotives containing at least 0% (!)  of the parts of their predecessors, were given the numbers of the locomotives they replaced, but additions to the fleet were added on at the end of the list.

[Wickham Green too]

6 hours ago, Jim Martin said:

... new wagons would be numbered either in blocks or inserted into gaps in existing number series. ... Did companies do the same thing with locomotives?

The South Eastern AND the Chatham did much the same before and after the working union - to the extent that Chatham locos had 459 added to their numbers - so they followed-on from the SER series - rather than a nice round figure such as 500.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

I am not a Welsh speaker so I don't know but would you use the article in Welsh? In German you would talk (sometimes) of die Linda when talking of a person called Linda.

 

'Y', pronounced 'uh', is used as the article yn Gymraeg, 'Y Hen Wlad Fy'n Hadau', The (Old) Land Of My Fathers'.

 

'The Alco' because while it is an Alco, it's the only one on the Ffestiniog, the Alco, or similarly  'The Simplex'.  Mountaineer because that is the Alco's name, as is Mary Ann.  You can't say 'The England' or 'The Fairlie' because there are more than one of each of these, though you can refer to the class, as in 'The Small Englands', or 'The Fairlies', even 'The Penrhyns'.  On the Vale of Rheidol, where all the locos are identical (or so it is at least alleged), they are each referred to by name only, though of course at one time it would have been the GW numbers.

 

In maritime usage, it may be correct to use the ship's name without the article when you are serving in her, 'in Waverley' for example, but if you regard yourself as being on her, a passenger or supercargo, then maybe you would use 'The Waverley', 'on the Waverley' as opposed to 'on Waverley',  Never 'The Waverley', though...

 

The Gower peninsula in South Wales is 'The Gower Peninsula' and you can be on 'the Gower Peninsula', but never on 'The Gower'; only grockles use that!  You are on 'Gower'.  Some Welsh names use the article, for example 'Y Barri', Barry, which is not 'The Barry' in English. 

 

The Welsh article 'Y' is mutated to 'Yr' (rolling r) if the next word starts with a vowel, and W & Y are vowels in Welsh as well as the English five.  But there is no J, K, Q, V, X, or Z; some of their functions are performed by dipthongs.  Single F translates from English as a hard F 'V' sound, and the dipthong Ff serves for the soft F sound.  S equates to the English 'sh' dipthong.

[Compound2632]

Yesterday I visited the The National Archives...

 

But I didn't buy a copy of the The Times.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Compound2632

[Nick C]

On 12/07/2023 at 16:22, The Johnster said:

Canton men, almost entirely GW/WR, in the 70s when I worked on the railway, referred to GW steam engines as ‘twenty-eights’, ‘forty-nines’ &c, or the full four digits when needed, such as ‘sixty-nine-fifty-nines’.  Castles were ‘five thousands (even those in the 4073-99 and 7000-37 blocks) and Hawksworth Counties were ‘thousands’.  BR standards were ‘seventy thousands’, ‘seventy-five thousands’, and so on. 

I've also heard (in preservation, I'm not old enough to remember BR steam!) the first two digits being used for BR standards, e.g. "seventy-six" for a 4MT mogul, "Eighty tank" for a 2-6-4T.

[Talltim]

Using 'the' as a prefix for a loco number is quite common in the US. I'm not sure if it's regional

[The Stationmaster]

On 12/07/2023 at 22:59, Morello Cherry said:

I am not sure if this is related or not but something that has puzzled me is the use of the article when someone is talking about an engine. I was reminded of it watching one of the Ffestiniog's Moving Picture videos and the CME when referring to an engine used  the Lyd, the Linda, the Prince, etc.  I remember hearing it used on the FfR many years ago by others. I wouldn't use the article I'd say Prince/Clan Line etc but should I be? Is it some Ffestiniogism? A regionalism? Should it be the Hinton Manor/ the  Defiant / the 2809?

 

At 5 minutes or so in.

 

 

That's just poor understanding of correct English usage (or an affectation!).

[adb968008]

On 11/07/2023 at 22:16, flockandroll said:

"However one should remember that we young enthusiasts of the time were used to hearing what other spotters called them, and spotters didn't always use nicknames that would have been familiar to railwaymen."

Very much so. I was at first surprised to find out so many examples of spotters' names bearing no relationship whatsoever to railwaymen's names for loco's, etc.

I think the same applies today.

 

i doubt drivers say “Theres two shoe boxes on the scrubber today”

 

(2 x 73 on a RHTT)

 

or “A shed on the bins”

 

(66 on the Waste refuse train)

 

Imagine GWR talking about “ a Body snatcher borrowed on the sleeper”

 

(a drs 57)

Edited July 15, 2023 by adb968008

[Steamport Southport]

On 12/07/2023 at 22:59, Morello Cherry said:

I am not sure if this is related or not but something that has puzzled me is the use of the article when someone is talking about an engine. I was reminded of it watching one of the Ffestiniog's Moving Picture videos and the CME when referring to an engine used  the Lyd, the Linda, the Prince, etc.  I remember hearing it used on the FfR many years ago by others. I wouldn't use the article I'd say Prince/Clan Line etc but should I be? Is it some Ffestiniogism? A regionalism? Should it be the Hinton Manor/ the  Defiant / the 2809?

 

At 5 minutes or so in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Called HMS Defiant in the UK, but the worldwide release and I think the DVD was called Damn The Defiant. Certainly seen it called that on TV when show in the afternoon.

[Ian Rathbone]

Apologies to The Johnster but there are some errors in his brief explanation of the Welsh article y. Yr is not a mutation, just a modification for words beginning with a vowel (and sometimes h). Mutation has an important role in Celtic languages whereby the first letter of a word changes depending on grammar and gender. For example the Welsh for Wales is Cymru but on road signs saying Welcome to Wales it says Croeso  i Gymru. The C  changes to a G after a preposition; this is called Soft Mutation, there are others. He quotes f as being hard and ff as being soft but in fact it is the other way round. The voiced consonant is always the soft one - c/g, p/b, t/d etc. The Welsh double letters are not diphthongs (diphthongs are vowels), they are simply double letters counted as a single letter in the Welsh alphabet. There are 8 of them - ch, dd, ff, ng, ll, ph, rh, and th. I know there are differences in pronunciation in South Wales but s is pronounced s except when followed by i, hence siop is pronounced shop (and means shop).

 

I’ll stop now.

 

Ian R

[eldomtom2]

On 12/07/2023 at 12:34, Steamport Southport said:

The LMS didn't have a locomotive numbering system though. They tried to keep them in blocks but not always.

 

They went by the code on the cabside such as 7P. 

 

If you look at the 446XX range it includes 4Fs and 5MTs.

This raises a question I've wondered for a while - what was the official LMS method of distinguishing between two classes of the same power code?

[Wickham Green too]

... which poses the further question - did the LMS feel there was a need to distinguish between two "classes" of the same power code ? ( Route availability permitting )