A Plea For Accurate Milk Tanks

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

Anyone else getting thirsty reading this topic? 😆

I have a mug of tea, with milk, right in front of me and am sipping between typing.  I'll soon be off to the kitchen for a refill. 

[RCAR6015]

My wife and I very much enjoyed a visit last Saturday to the East Somerset Railway at their base at Cranmore.

After the train ride and excellent cream tea, we ventured down to the maintenance facility.

Inside were two ex GWR / BR 6 wheel milk tank wagons, which were being externally cleaned by hand / mop and bucket.

I was advised by a member of staff that the external cleaning was to do with a forthcoming photographic session.

Am I reading to much into the situation?

[Combe Martin]

Hmmm .... sounds promising ... maybe ???

 

I don't suppose you made a note of their running numbers did you ?, I can check which diagram they're from if you have.

  

[County of Yorkshire]

14 hours ago, RCAR6015 said:

My wife and I very much enjoyed a visit last Saturday to the East Somerset Railway at their base at Cranmore.

After the train ride and excellent cream tea, we ventured down to the maintenance facility.

Inside were two ex GWR / BR 6 wheel milk tank wagons, which were being externally cleaned by hand / mop and bucket.

I was advised by a member of staff that the external cleaning was to do with a forthcoming photographic session.

Am I reading to much into the situation?

“photographic session” probably means an enthusiasts photo charter. Participants will pay upwards of £200 or so to photograph select rolling stock in a variety of poses, usually with a loco. 
 

I don’t think Hornby would be that fussed whether the milk tanks were dirty or clean if it’s just for measuring purposes. 
 

[Combe Martin]

Well I started this thread in Hornby because I thought they might be most likely to produce something 'more quickly' than someone else, and I couldn't think where else to put it, but at the same time also hoping that another manufacturer would spot it and take up the challenge as well because there are plenty of different options for manufacturers to not compete with each other (though I appreciate they have to be careful to not be accused of collusion)  eg GWR/BR or LMS underframes, Unigate with no external strapping versus Express Dairy with external strapping (and that includes the smaller dairies whose fleets eventually merged with the 'big two'). So, maybe one of the others, and there are at least 4 will be interested too.  

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, County of Yorkshire said:

“photographic session” probably means an enthusiasts photo charter.

 

Here's one they prepared earlier.

 

Quote

Former Great Western Railway 2-6-2T number 4566 in early British Railways black livery working 'Milk Trains' on a photographic charter at the South Devon Railway in 2015. Thanks to the railway staff and the charter organiser for making this event happen.

 

 

[BachelorBoy]

2 hours ago, County of Yorkshire said:

“photographic session” probably means an enthusiasts photo charter. Participants will pay upwards of £200 or so to photograph select rolling stock in a variety of poses, usually with a loco. 

 

OnlyFans never misses a trick. 

[Wickham Green too]

6 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

... I don't suppose you made a note of their running numbers did you ?, ...  

Probably http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=2676 & http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=2592

[KeithMacdonald]

On 20/07/2023 at 21:30, njee20 said:

Will you also be appealing for RTP buildings to suit your location?

 

Would this be sufficient?

https://scalescenes.com/product/t038-low-relief-creamery/

[KeithMacdonald]

8 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

there are plenty of different options for manufacturers to not compete with each other (though I appreciate they have to be careful to not be accused of collusion)  eg GWR/BR or LMS underframes,

 

Or SR?

e.g. SR 4409 preserved at Didcot

Available in two disguises.

CoOp green

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/255/no-s-4409-6-wheeled-milk-tank

or Express blue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#/media/File:SR_4409_6_Wheeled_Milk_Wagon_Didcot_Railway_Centre.jpg

 

 

[brossard]

11 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Would this be sufficient?

https://scalescenes.com/product/t038-low-relief-creamery/

 

A good kit I think.  I did one in 7mm scale for my layout.

 

There's also:

 

https://www.3dk-shop.co.uk/product-page/oo-26-dairy-creamery-building-kit

 

I'm not aware of anything RTP.

 

John

[KeithMacdonald]

On 27/07/2023 at 12:20, Combe Martin said:

I've been studying Somerset & Dorset early 60s colour pictures and they are all dirty with sometimes a bit of what's probably silver showing though. 

 

Similarly at Chard Junction

 

 

[Combe Martin]

12 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Or SR?

e.g. SR 4409 preserved at Didcot

Available in two disguises.

CoOp green

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/255/no-s-4409-6-wheeled-milk-tank

or Express blue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#/media/File:SR_4409_6_Wheeled_Milk_Wagon_Didcot_Railway_Centre.jpg

 

 

 

I've not suggested a manufacturer produce an ex SR or ex LNER tanker because these 2 fleets were easily the smallest compared to the ex GWR/BR and ex LMS tanker fleets.  Any manufacturer taking the plunge with an accurate milk tanker is going to want it to have the widest possible appeal.  This isn't just me, others on here have also brought this up.

 

The 2 pictures of SR 4409 are both bogus.  SR 4409 was a United Dairies/Unigate tanker not Express Dairies or CO-OP.  The liveries themselves are not bogus, just not on SR 4409.  This seems to be a preservation era Faux Par.

 

Also, all the pictures of Express Dairy tankers I've found (bar 1) have 4 full 'wrap round' straps holding the tank down, whereas United Dairies tankers have the half hidden/part showing hold down straps, as per the SR 4409 pictures.  This is a fairly simple way of identifying which fleet a tanker belongs to, though be careful of tankers from the smaller dairies that by the late 50's had been merged into the big 2s dairy fleets. 

 

 

 

 

[KeithAnthony]

On 23/09/2023 at 21:01, RCAR6015 said:

forthcoming photographic session.

 

From said session 

[Combe Martin]

12 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Similarly at Chard Junction

 

 

 

These are clean compared with the ones I've seen on the S&D, they are 'black' by comparison !

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

I've not suggested a manufacturer produce an ex SR or ex LNER tanker because these 2 fleets were easily the smallest compared to the ex GWR/BR and ex LMS tanker fleets.  Any manufacturer taking the plunge with an accurate milk tanker is going to want it to have the widest possible appeal.  This isn't just me, others on here have also brought this up.

 

The 2 pictures of SR 4409 are both bogus.  SR 4409 was a United Dairies/Unigate tanker not Express Dairies or CO-OP.  The liveries themselves are not bogus, just not on SR 4409.  This seems to be a preservation era Faux Par.

 

Also, all the pictures of Express Dairy tankers I've found (bar 1) have 4 full 'wrap round' straps holding the tank down, whereas United Dairies tankers have the half hidden/part showing hold down straps, as per the SR 4409 pictures.  This is a fairly simple way of identifying which fleet a tanker belongs to, though be careful of tankers from the smaller dairies that by the late 50's had been merged into the big 2s dairy fleets.

 

I do sympathise, and I'm not being critical. I really do hope any of the manufacturers reading this are not deterred. If we're not careful, they might get the wrong impression. i.e. anyone producing any new RTR milk tankers based on something on a Preservation Railway could easily get crucified by the Rivet Counters. Or should we just call that an "Occupational Hazard"?

 

Trying to find a positive, has anyone already compiled a list of known milk tankers that are on Preservation Railways, with a short statement of "validity"? Or something like that?

 

[K14]

On 25/09/2023 at 09:45, Combe Martin said:

 

The 2 pictures of SR 4409 are both bogus.  SR 4409 was a United Dairies/Unigate tanker not Express Dairies or CO-OP.  The liveries themselves are not bogus, just not on SR 4409.  This seems to be a preservation era Faux Par.

 

 

The Express Dairies livery was originally applied purely because there were good reference photos in one of Russell's wagon books. IIRC it carried a fleet number "42" as Hitch Hikers' Guide to the Galaxy was all the rage at the time. The ED error was repeated when I repainted & re-lettered it as someone (possibly the late John Hosegood) had talked ED's marketing department into funding the whole enterprise. Part of that funding was a requirement to apply their new logo to the tank ends.

 

If we'd known it had been a UD tanker at the time, things may have been different (subject to getting sponsorship).

 

A similar deal led to O.11 19818 wearing Foster Yeoman livery for a while - they stumped up for all the timber.

 

Pete Speller.

C&W Dept.,

GWS Didcot (lapsed)

Edited September 29, 2023 by K14
Spling moustache

[Harlequin]

Are there any original works drawings of suitable candidates available? I mean proper construction drawings with dimensions.

 

[Combe Martin]

Somewhere maybe ??, the NRM perhaps, but  I'm just an amateur not an expert.

 

 

Regarding measuring up a tanker at a preservation site ... 

 

The underframes are not the problem, each of the big four had their own standard design.  Early GWR ones had Dean/Churchward brakes, later ones (most of those pictured) had lever brakes (by the right hand end wheel). BR built underframes were the GWR pattern with later ones having roller bearing axle boxes.  The LMS changed their type of bracing sometime in the 40's.  So for example if you've measured up a preserved GWR underframe with lever brakes somewhere, it'll be correct regardless of what tank top 'setup' is siting on it. 

 

It's the tank tops that are the problem.  They were owned by the dairy and it seems that in their later days sometimes tanks (and their supports, ladders, side or top platforms, etc)  were swopped from (for example) an LMS underframe to a GWR underframe.  So, whilst the running number on the underframe is correct, its diagram number can surely no longer be correct because what is above the underframe no longer looks like what it was built with. Photographs (some on here) of preserved tankers show some that should not be used as the basis for a new model.  However, from what I've seen, the current owners generally do have the history of their tanker, so 'howlers' shouldn't happen as long as they're consulted.  There are also a few milk tanker experts  (not me) that can be consulted. 

 

One more point regarding original drawings, my understanding is that often the real thing dos'nt tie up with them. 

 

What I know I've gleaned from the Rumney models website and it's '3000 Gallon Milk Tank Diagrams' paper which I've printed off.  This plus the David Larkin book ... BR PARCELS AND PASSENGER-RATED STOCK Volume 2 which has lots of milk tanker pictures mainly from the late 60's to early 70's period but when they were still in use for milk, plus info from a few people on here that are far more expert than me.

[KeithMacdonald]

6 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Are there any original works drawings of suitable candidates available? I mean proper construction drawings with dimensions.

 

One might expect the GWR Steam Museum (Historical Enquiries) to have something.

https://www.steam-museum.org.uk/collections/historical-enquiries/

But it probably costs £30 to find out. And/or the reference library

https://www.steam-museum.org.uk/collections/reference-library/

But that costs as well.

 

A search of the museum's list of reference books for the word "milk" finds only this item:

 

Quote

GWR Siphons - An account of vehicles built for milk traffic - Slinn Jack N and Clarke Bernard K, 1986

 

https://steamgwr.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/21131217/List_of_GWR_books_held_at_STEAM.pdf

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Typical of the frustration :~

 

Firstly a black & white pic of two sets of milk tankers at Torrington in 1976. But not close enough to read any identifying marks.

 

 

Then a colour pic from 1971, of a very similar scene, of equally filthy wagons.

 

 

Barely discernable in the wagons on the right is perhaps one red wagon.

[Combe Martin]

The only thing I can add to these pictures is that the tankers are Unigate Creameries (no full wrap round straps) and in the black and white photo the nearest tanker is an ex GWR/BR (6 tank supports) and the next one looks like an ex LMS tanker (4 tank supports).

 

The red tanker in the colour picture may be an orange tank which might be St Ivel.

[Combe Martin]

Further to my post just above, I've blown up the black and white picture and studied it again with a magnifying glass too, to look at the row of tankers on the right.

 

The 1st tanker (the half picture) looks like an ex LMS tanker (brake lever between the left side 2 wheels), but its the next 2 that interest me.

 

The first of these is I think a Diagram O.51 GWR tanker of lot numbers 1668 or 1671. These are the only ex GWR tankers with the central side platform and with the lever brakes, and they were the first to be so fitted.  All ex GWR tankers before them (including Diagram O.51 lot number 1619) had Dean/Churchward brakes. 

 

The 2nd of these tankers looks like it has Dean/Churchward brakes (I cant see the big brake lever, but I think I can see the small Dean/Churchward lever) which means its either a Diagram O.51 lot number 1619 or a diagram O.39 . These 2 diagrams were virtually the same.

 

Re ... the tanker I think is orange, page 78 of the David Larkin book I've mentioned previously has a picture of exactly that, and at Torrington too. 

 

 

 

 

[Chuffed 1]

Has anyone seen West Hill Wagon Works new ‘Oil Storage tank’?

it appears to be a complete body and underframe ( but no axleguards, buffers, springs or brake gear) of an ex-LMS 6w Milk Tank wagon.

And at £6.95 it’s an absolute steal!

[Combe Martin]

Yes, it looks like an ex Express Dairy tank (rap round straps) on an ex LMS underframe (4 tank supports) with lots of extra piping bits.

 

I wonder where the prototype was. 

Edited February 10 by Combe Martin