A Plea For Accurate Milk Tanks

[Combe Martin]

I've posted this under Hornby because there isn't a place to address all manufacturers in one go and I have the impression (rightly or wrongly maybe) that out of all the manufacturers, they could possibly produce  a model in the shortest time frame, and I'm getting on in years now and don't want to wait till I'm over 80.  I don't however mind which of our lovely manufacturers does it.   I just hope they all read this Hornby thread even if its not about them.

 

Please please please can someone produce an accurate Milk Tanker.

 

I am finally in the process of building my second and much more  spacious version of Bailey Gate on the Somerset & Dorset main line.  For those that don't know, it had a dairy with milk tankers going in and out several times per day (not just the afternoon 'Milky' from Templecombe), so I need lots of them.

 

I've read all the comments about there are far too many milk tanker diagrams of just a handful of tankers each for someone to do one, and we already have 2 tanker models (Hornby & Dapol) that plenty of people buy.  Well, both are generic, though both are supposed to be based on an ex GWR chassis, but between them there are major errors, and the Dapol one is inclined to derail too easily because it rocks on the centre wheel set, and its not just my one.

 

I'm not going to go through all the errors here but on both, the most obvious one is the brake lever and what its supposed to connect to, I could be rude about it. I'm not even bothered about underframe details that cant be easily seen from a side on view, just what can be seen.

 

There are lots of photos online and in books (a good example is 'BR Parcels and Passenger- Rated Stock Volume 2' by David Larkin.  I know that the ex GWR underframe version was the most numerous, it also being adopted for the BR version, and there are more of these than others shown in this book. They were also seen all over the BR network, so why not just produce one accurate ex GWR type underframe with the 'large brake lever' not the earlier Dean-Churchward type of brake.

 

Variations to what's put on top are ... the number of tank supports, 4 5 or 6 and their shape ... tank fixing straps, either wrap round or short (under an outer cover ?) ... ladder and filler position (central) or combined with a frame and platform about 2/3rds up the side and either placed central or at one end of the tank side.

 

Using one standard underframe you could initially produce just 2 or 3 different models using a combination of the above variations. Just look at the published photos and pick a couple of different tops to model. I would suggest one with a central side ladder (there are plenty), and one with a side frame at one end (plenty of these too).  Those are the most obvious differences, and then copy what the other variations are for the one you have chosen.  If they sell well you could produce another slight variation next year.

 

Surely its better to produce a couple of accurate models than the current generic ones using the excuse that there are too many odd feature combinations and too few of one type.  

 

 

    

Edited July 20, 2023 by Combe Martin

[meil]

This is an accurate model of the 6-wheel GWR tanker: https://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/milk-tanks

[Brinkly]

2 minutes ago, meil said:

This is an accurate model of the 6-wheel GWR tanker: https://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/milk-tanks

 

Greetings,

 

Justin's etched parts are available, but I don't think David Geen is producing anything these days (which is the base model required to produce the milk tank). Having said that, it might be worth talking to Justin as he might be prepared to produce the missing parts (ends, solebars, buffers etc.) to accompany his detailing and underframes.

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

[The Stationmaster]

I doubt we'll see one from Hornby unless that have a project already well advanced and too far on to cancel.  Others, I'm sure, are far more likely to go for this particular prize.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Combe Martin

 

Right with you on that request!🙂

 

Within The 00 Wishlist Poll 2022, we listed six Milk Tank Wagons and two Milk Tank Trucks with Trailer.

 

Three came in Top 50; three were High Polling; and two were high up the Middle Polling segment.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Brinkly]

Just now, The Stationmaster said:

I doubt we'll see one from Hornby unless that have a project already well advanced and too far on to cancel.  Others, I'm sure, are far more likely to go for this particular prize.

 

I agree, Mike. Wouldn't it be lovely if Accurascale produced one to accompany their Siphon G models.

 

Kind regards,

Nick.

[Combe Martin]

Yes, and very nice it is too. It is a combination of a David Gean kit with Rumney models variations added I believe, but lots of us are are not very skilled at producing something of this quality or dont have the time to make loads of them unfortunately.  

[Combe Martin]

There are also at least 2 real ones on preserved lines that can be measured, photo'd and scanned .

[Phil Bullock]

Some sort of suspension arrangement on the middle axle would probably make for better running.

 

One for Rapido perhaps? 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I reckon the best chance is from a plastic kit manufacturer.

 

Mike.

[Mike_Walker]

The big issue is, as already pointed out, there were so many variations.  Look at any photo of a typical milk train and it will usually be a case of no two looking the same.  Therefore if we were to get a hi-fi model would a train formed of many of them be accurate?

[Combe Martin]

But  what I'm suggesting is produce the one standard underframe with at least 2 different tops, and besides thats what weve got now, just 2 slightly different inaccurate generic ones !

Edited July 20, 2023 by Combe Martin

[ColHut]

So, like the generic Hornby steel under framed mineral wagons :) ?

 

For me anyway I want the earlier 4 wheel versions.

I don’t like your chances.

regards

 

[Combe Martin]

1 hour ago, Mike_Walker said:

The big issue is, as already pointed out, there were so many variations.  Look at any photo of a typical milk train and it will usually be a case of no two looking the same.  Therefore if we were to get a hi-fi model would a train formed of many of them be accurate?

 

Well I don't think that's a good enough excuse not to make them, ie just because someone wants to run a 10 or more tanker milk train and they might all be the same !, if that's the case they're no worse off than they are now, they havn't got them at the moment, in fact they're better off because they could mix them with the 2 current generic ones.  Would most people be running a long milk tanker train ?, even though I want plenty of them the most I've ever seen leaving Bailey Gate on one train is 3, the rest will be on their way in, or already in the milk siding.

[Flying Pig]

A more detailed proposal with actual diagrams, numbers built and period in service would probably help make the case here, as this is clearly a complex field.  I agree that one of the newer manufacturers is more likely to pick this one up, but I don't think that it is any more improbable than some of the stuff we have seen come to market.

[Combe Martin]

1 hour ago, ColHut said:

So, like the generic Hornby steel under framed mineral wagons :) ?

 

For me anyway I want the earlier 4 wheel versions.

I don’t like your chances.

regards

 

 

No, but with just the one accurate underframe, and a couple of different tops. 

[BMacdermott]

23 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

A more detailed proposal with actual diagrams, numbers built and period in service would probably help make the case here, as this is clearly a complex field.  I agree that one of the newer manufacturers is more likely to pick this one up, but I don't think that it is any more improbable than some of the stuff we have seen come to market.

 

Hello Flying Pig

 

The 00 Poll Team 'submitted a detailed paper' pretty much as per your suggestion above to a maker at the beginning of the year. We said it was for that maker only so we won't repeat it here - we weren't expecting an RMweb thread at the time, but it's great that Combe Martin has raised it.🙂

 

I will, however, repeat below the items we listed in The 00 Wishlist Poll 2022 to see if that helps the discussion. Number of votes in left column. The top item below was Second Place Overall. 

 

Note that top two were exactly what Combe Martin suggested in his first post - a good omen??

 

Top 50

235      Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder & filler in centre GWR/SR/LMS/LNER/BR (29+ diagrams) 

149      Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder off-centre, small platform GWR/SR/LNER/BR 

149      Milk Tank Truck 6-wh 20ft 6in. 4-wh Milk Road Tanker Trailer load GWR/SR/LMS/LNER

High Polling

116      Milk Tank Truck 6-wh 24ft 6in. 6-wh Milk Road Tanker Trailer load, GWR/LMS/LNER (4 diagrams)

115      Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder & filler one end, GWR (Diag.O57) 

108      Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 2000-gall. Ladder & filler in centre, LMS/LNER (Diag.1992 & Diag.222) 

Middle Polling

91        Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladders each end, twin tank/compartment, GWR (3 diagrams) 

86        Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder & filler one end, sloping tank, BR-built (3 diagrams)      

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[John Lewis]

2 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

So, like the generic Hornby steel under framed mineral wagons :) ?

 

For me anyway I want the earlier 4 wheel versions.

I don’t like your chances.

regards

 

No, but with just the one accurate underframe, and a couple of different tops. 

 

If you took a tank with an accurate GWR 6-wheel underframe, preferably with a Churchward handbrake, and removed the centre w-irons and wheelset etc, you could have an accurate Diagram O34 milk tank - "all" you would need then to do would be to paint the tank in the appropriate UD livery. 

 

[brossard]

One thing I learned when upgrading my Dapol 7mm tanks (Dapol used their growth ray on 4mm tanks to produce these, with dismal results) is that LMS underframes had carriage wheels, 3' 6" but GWR underframes had goods wheels, 3' 1".  I can't recall what LNER and SR underframes had.  My efforts focused on getting mine to look like LMS vehicles and adding underframe detail.

 

Happy to provide pics of what I did to benefit those wanting to detail their 4mm tanks if there is demand.

 

John

Edited July 20, 2023 by brossard

[Buhar]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

if there is demand

I'm feel very uncomfortable demanding anything.  Can I ask politely, please?

 

Alan

[brightspark]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

One thing I learned when upgrading my Dapol 7mm tanks (Dapol used their growth ray on 4mm tanks to produce these, with dismal results) is that LMS underframes had carriage wheels, 3' 6" but GWR underframes had goods wheels, 3' 1".  I can't recall what LNER and SR underframes had.  My efforts focused on getting mine to look like LMS vehicles and adding underframe detail.

 

Happy to provide pics of what I did to benefit those wanting to detail their 4mm tanks if there is demand.

 

John

and Hornby seem to have something in between both.

 

And even worse than generic is the markings. I have a Hornby Express Dairy tanker. The printing is lovely, but it has LMS on the solebar and a Great Western running number.

 

I did raise the question with Justin last year, but he said that he has no plans to extend the range. 

I also hear that Mr Geen keeps talking about restarting production, but I believe that his health is not too good.

 

So it looks like we either wait for something to be produced, or we start cutting some nickel silver.

[brossard]

1 hour ago, Buhar said:

I'm feel very uncomfortable demanding anything.  Can I ask politely, please?

 

Alan

 

Ha ha, yes of course.

 

These were panned pretty severely when they were released.  These escaped just before Richard Webster of Lionheart got involved.  They were, like their 4mm cousins neither one nor t'other.

 

I could have done the Slater's kit but thought that getting an RTR model would reduce the work needed.

 

So, this shows the brake levers which now resemble the LMS version:

 

 

Also note I added the tiebars.  I think I bent up brass strip for the levers.

 

 

The really extensive work was underneath which of course you can't see.  However, I made a decision early on that I would try my best to render the nether parts of all my wagons.  In fact I had started something similar with 4mm wagons just before I made the switch.

 

You can see the vacuum and steam pipes with a jog in them as they cross each other.  These pipes were always under the buffer beam, not through as I see so often.

 

Brake linkage is cobbled together from brass wire and strip.  Lets not forget the safety loops on the yokes.

 

Brake and steam hoses are from Slater's which uses flexible springs.  In 4mm I like the Markits wire wound vac pipes because they can be cut and bent to represent whatever you were after.

 

It is one thing to accomplish the work here, but it was also quite a task to gather the information that I needed.

 

HTH

 

John

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by brossard

[njee20]

I never quite get posts like these. You're building a (presumably) faithful recreation of a real place, and you're sufficiently bothered by things like handbrake levers being incorrect, yet you're not actually prepared to build a kit or modify existing RTR. Will you also be appealing for RTP buildings to suit your location?

[Wickham Green too]

4 hours ago, brossard said:

... LMS underframes had carriage wheels, 3' 6" but GWR underframes had goods wheels, 3' 1".  I can't recall what LNER and SR underframes had.  ...

LNER & SR milk tanks had 3'1'' wagon wheels ........ and the Southern tanks had VERY distinctive dampers to the springs.

[Combe Martin]

12 hours ago, njee20 said:

I never quite get posts like these. You're building a (presumably) faithful recreation of a real place, and you're sufficiently bothered by things like handbrake levers being incorrect, yet you're not actually prepared to build a kit or modify existing RTR. Will you also be appealing for RTP buildings to suit your location?

 

Well firstly there isn't a kit available now, David Geen has stopped production and whether he'll restart is unknown, and also his kits needed a lot of skill to produce something good and would take me a long time especially as I want a dozen maybe !

 

However I certainly am prepared to modify the RTR examples and have already bought some Rumney Models etched brass parts sheets to use on the Hornby and Dapol RTR tankers that I've already got, whether they'll fit is another matter, as the Rumney gentleman didn't make them for this purpose.  As far as buildings are concerned I knew when I started that there is nothing on the market (with one small exception) that faintly resembles any structure that I need so I'm already committed to that one.

 

With all the work this is going to take, I was just hoping for a small short cut in proceedings especially as there are plenty of other modellers who would also like some accurate milk tankers. 

 

I was hoping to get somewhere before I snuff it !