A Plea For Accurate Milk Tanks

[Rugd1022]

Toddington, Glos & Warks, December 2008, pity the fence is obscuring the chassis...

 

 

 

[Combe Martin]

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello CM

 

I can save you some time - The 00 Poll Team did that as part of the paper that was submitted.

 

I can't repeat it here (as we noted to the maker that we were sending it to them only) but many of the 6-wheel diagrams do have more than 10 examples. 

 

In summary though (and that can be gleaned from published sources open to all)...

 

If we ignore the circa 180 Milk Tank Wagons built in BR days, then the various companies had:

 

GWR - 236 

SR - 56

LMS - 170 (but 128 of those were from just Diag.1994)

ER - 42 (but only one diagram had more than 10 examples built)

 

For Milk Tank Trucks it was:

 

GWR - 34

SR - 7

LMS -13

ER - 9

 

Note that all figures are plus or minus a small amount as we can't account for every minor variant without massively detailed research.

 

It is fairly clear that the ER is the most likely to miss out.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

Hello Brian, thanks for that, however .... The LMS Diagram 1994 tankers

 

These seem to be mostly shared between the Express Dairies fleet and the United Dairies/Unigate fleet.  However as I've mentioned somewhere before, the non 1994 photos of Express Dairy tankers (apart from one) all show them with full wrap round tank straps whereas the non 1994 Unigate tanker photos (apart from tankers inherited from the smaller 'dairies') show them with the half hidden straps.

 

I havn't found many diagram 1994 photos, but of those, the Express Dairies photos conform to the above 'rule' but so does the one Unigate photo.  So the Unigate diagram 1994 tanker is therefore different from the Express Dairies diagram 1994 tanker (apart from the underframe they are completely different), something is obviously a 'bit wrong', you surely cant have two different tanker types under one diagram number.  The number of this tanker is M44252 so I'm wondering if the quoted diagram number is wrong (in both the photo and the list).

 

There are lots of other United Dairies/Unigate tanker numbers listed under diagram 1994 but I have no photos  of them so cant say whether this is just a one off anomally. 

 

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

LMS - 170 (but 128 of those were from just Diag.1994)

 

On the face of it, the LMS D1994 would look like an ideal prototype to model. Unfortunately checking the actual photos shows a lot of differences between different examples. The LMS built a large number of tanks to nominally just a few diagrams but I have seen photos of D.1994s with more differences than between a GWR diagram O39 and O42.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Combe Martin & Karhedron

 

Diag.1994 was built in numerous 'Lots' between 1931 and 1946 - some as few as one, two or three vehicles.

 

David Jenkinson (in his LMS Coaching Stock book) states that: "There also appear to have been several changes of drawing...but we cannot say how significant these were".

 

I can't recall offhand - and Karhedron will correct me please - but I think the Dapol 0 gauge Milk Tank Wagon is fairly close  to Diag.1994. If so, and they have drawings etc, then maybe they might convert to 00 in due course?

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

 

[Combe Martin]

 

Re Diagram 1994

 

27 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

David Jenkinson (in his LMS Coaching Stock book) states that: "There also appear to have been several changes of drawing...but we cannot say how significant these were".

 

 

 

I think this has to be the understatement of the year !

[BMacdermott]

Hello Combe Martin

 

I omitted to say in earlier postings that The 00 Poll Team was fortunate in being able to 'co-opt' Karhedron for the milk deliberations we had. Our late colleague, Glen Woods, passed much of his milk research to Matt who was already a proficient milk researcher in his own right.

 

In model form, we are unlikely to see every variant of Horse Box, Banana Van, GWR Siphon, CCT, Fish Van etc and we can say without doubt that - like many railway subjects - 'milk' is fraught with difficulty! But we do believe that there are reasonable number of contenders for commercial models.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

 

[Rugd1022]

Another pic of that St.Ivel tank at Toddington, W3043, this time showing the chassis...

 

 

Two more  questions : 

 

Presumably the paint job is its original from the late '60s / early '70s period?

 

How many received the St.Ivel livery?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike_Walker]

At least this one which has the number 4455 on the tank.  Taken at Bourne End on 15 July 1973 during the Marlow Donkey centenary.  It wasn't a preserved vehicle and was being used as a water supply.  If the number is correct it appears to have been a SR diagram 3157 built for United Dairies in 1943.

 

[Rugd1022]

The second and third vehicles in this pic from one of the Bradford Barton albums are St.Ivel liveried and appear to have sloping tanks, pic taken by 'H.L.Ford' near Chacewater of one of the up afternoon services c.1971 / 72...

 

 

[hmrspaul]

2 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

At least this one which has the number 4455 on the tank.  Taken at Bourne End on 15 July 1973 during the Marlow Donkey centenary.  It wasn't a preserved vehicle and was being used as a water supply.  If the number is correct it appears to have been a SR diagram 3157 built for United Dairies in 1943.

 

I believe that this is ex LMS, the fifth numeral is missing. SR milk tanks are very noticeable because of the very large auxilliary rubber suspension (often called J hanger suspension)

Most of the St. Ivel repaints of this type appear to be ex LMS. The remarks in  http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=2678 about W3043 show how difficult using heritage site conserved examples can be. This repaint was quite common - I've a few all LMS numbered https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsmilk  There were some nice photos published in an HMRS Journal some years ago. 

 

Diag 1994 And as I said it is inevitable that a railway diagram is going to be occasionally inaccurate not least because the barrel was privately owned so swapping about could easily happen. My photos show several that are at variance to the LMS carriage book - not in small ways but 2 and 3K gallon tanks being exchanged. 

 

Richard Webster partially retrieved the Dapol 7mm one as his first work for them, but he acknowledges that he couldn't prevent it being generic, so please don't encourage copying to 4mm as it stands. It wasn't clear to him when he picked the job up whether wagon or carriage diameter wheels were intended - he opted for LMS as being the closest so carriage wheels. 

 

Paul

[Combe Martin]

3 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

Another pic of that St.Ivel tank at Toddington, W3043, this time showing the chassis...

 

 

Two more  questions : 

 

Presumably the paint job is its original from the late '60s / early '70s period?

 

How many received the St.Ivel livery?

 

 

I cant answer your questions, but I've got a bit of a conumdrum here.

 

W3043 is, according to 'BR Parcels and Passenger-Rated Stock' by David Larkin a diagram 0.57 tanker, but this book also has a picture of W3048 which is also supposed to be a Diagram 0.57 tanker, and guess what, they're nothing like each other.

 

W3048 has 6 small tanker support blocks, not 4 as above, and the tank filler is at the left hand end with the associated side platform, frame and ladder, not central with central ladder as above. 

 

I presume that one or the other has had a tank change ? 

 

[Rugd1022]

Dunster, West Somerset line back in 2009...

 

[hmrspaul]

4 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

 

I

 

I presume that one or the other has had a tank change ? 

 

Which the link  I used earlier explains http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=2678  as I said. 

 

Paul

[brossard]

11 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

I believe that this is ex LMS, the fifth numeral is missing. SR milk tanks are very noticeable because of the very large auxilliary rubber suspension (often called J hanger suspension)

Most of the St. Ivel repaints of this type appear to be ex LMS. The remarks in  http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=2678 about W3043 show how difficult using heritage site conserved examples can be. This repaint was quite common - I've a few all LMS numbered https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsmilk  There were some nice photos published in an HMRS Journal some years ago. 

 

Diag 1994 And as I said it is inevitable that a railway diagram is going to be occasionally inaccurate not least because the barrel was privately owned so swapping about could easily happen. My photos show several that are at variance to the LMS carriage book - not in small ways but 2 and 3K gallon tanks being exchanged. 

 

Richard Webster partially retrieved the Dapol 7mm one as his first work for them, but he acknowledges that he couldn't prevent it being generic, so please don't encourage copying to 4mm as it stands. It wasn't clear to him when he picked the job up whether wagon or carriage diameter wheels were intended - he opted for LMS as being the closest so carriage wheels. 

 

Paul

 

Paul, I think what you say about the Dapol 7mm tank jives with what I know.  My post earlier in this thread shows what I did to get the 7mm tank looking more like LMS (and your pictures were very helpful there).  I think Dapol were a tad naive when they started 7mm believing that 7mm modellers would accept some of the less than accurate standards prevalent in 4mm. 

 

Their what I call, gen 1, PO wagons, were pretty rubbishy as well, thankfully I only bought one and fixed it up to a better standard.  Dapol's gen 2 PO wagons are miles better and bear the DNA of Lionheart.

 

John

[Combe Martin]

9 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Which the link  I used earlier explains http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=2678  as I said. 

 

Paul

 

Sorry, we crossed paths on this one, your post arrived while I was still working on mine.  As you've pointed out, using a preservation era photo for a reference point is fraught with danger.  Apart from the underframe, W3043 is a completely different vehicle to it's original state !

[Harlequin]

There are some official photos of GWR milk tanks in the Steam picture library, with diagram No.s stated:

 

https://www.steampicturelibrary.com/search.html?search=milk+tank

 

These should be in their original designed condition, with their original tanks...

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Harlequin

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

These should be in their original designed condition, with their original tanks...???

Most appear to be official posed photos, probably at the manufacturer.

[Mike_Walker]

Here's a good set of tanks in typical workaday condition behind D1012 'Western Firebrand' passing Theale in the early 1970s.  Anyone care to take a stab at identifying them?  All appear to differ.

 

 

Regarding the St Ivel tanker at Bourne End I posted yesterday, if we assume @hmrspaul is correct, which he surely is, then there's a final digit probably hidden in that view by the end stanchion.

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

A factor to be considered which I don't think has come up so far is that it is not only a case of having a reasonable number of Milk Tank Wagons of any diagram, but finding one which can have as many accurate liveries applied as possible.

 

Yes, we have all seen liveries 'slapped on' inaccurate vehicles but - hopefully - those days are gone.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

 

Sorry, we crossed paths on this one, your post arrived while I was still working on mine.  As you've pointed out, using a preservation era photo for a reference point is fraught with danger.  Apart from the underframe, W3043 is a completely different vehicle to it's original state !

 

I would also check that W3043 is actually W3043.

 

Quite often when you obtain rolling stock they have had all identity such as the plates removed or have gone through numerous number changes as they've came from an industrial owner. So you just find a number that "fits".

 

 

Jason

[Combe Martin]

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello everyone

 

A factor to be considered which I don't think has come up so far is that it is not only a case of having a reasonable number of Milk Tank Wagons of any diagram, but finding one which can have as many accurate liveries applied as possible.

 

Yes, we have all seen liveries 'slapped on' inaccurate vehicles but - hopefully - those days are gone.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

I know this sounds obvious, but it would seem to be for most ... original dairy livery, then BR silver, then dirty versions of both.  I've been studying Somerset & Dorset early 60s colour pictures and they are all dirty with sometimes a bit of what's probably silver showing though.   The David Larkin book that I've been quoting from has black and white pictures from the late 60's to early 70's and they are mostly dirty or slightly dirty silver, with the odd dirty blue Express Dairy livery.  There is also the odd clean St Ivel picture but no one tanker would have had both Express Dairy and St Ivel livery as St Ivel was part of United Dairies/Unigate empire.  Occasionally you can see a bit of the dairies old livery showing through the dirt, examples are IMS and MMB.

 

      

[BMacdermott]

Agreed!

 

I don't think I am breaching any confidences, but our submitted paper did contain the word 'filth' on a number of occasions.🙂

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Combe Martin]

8 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Agreed!

 

I don't think I am breaching any confidences, but our submitted paper did contain the word 'filth' on a number of occasions.🙂

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

Well that does seem to be the main livery in BR days to well after the end of steam.

[Combe Martin]

21 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I would also check that W3043 is actually W3043.

 

Quite often when you obtain rolling stock they have had all identity such as the plates removed or have gone through numerous number changes as they've came from an industrial owner. So you just find a number that "fits".

 

Jason

 

Hmmmm ... that one hadn't occurred to me, so it looks like unless it ties up exactly with older photos of other tankers for the diagram it's number is for, it'll be best to ignore it. 

[Wickham Green too]

21 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

... our submitted paper did contain the word 'filth' on a number of occasions. ...

Should be ashamed of yourself submitting filth like that ! 😎