WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

1 hour ago, Legend said:

Serious stuff for the Lochaber economy . Hope they get it sorted or one of the major draws for foreign visitors is going to impact on the credibility of the whole tourism industry in Scotland . Can’t even run a train! 

They wouldn't have a problem if they complied with the rules. They have been given plenty of time to comply but think that rules are for others, not for them. The regulations clearly state that any exemption can by revoked without notice if the company don't carry out work on CDL in accordance with an agreed programme and don't apply the agreed interim measures. 

WCR were found to be lacking on all counts on more than one occasion so I can have no sympathy with the management. 

It's tough on the staff and punters but not so tough as having to recover the remains of a casualty.

 

[lmsforever]

1. This whole situation makes you realise how  the population of our country has declined in being able to do simple things such as not open doors whilst the train is in motion. When I first started use trains in the early 1950,s  Iknew not to open a train door when it was in motion.But now there is so much legislation   that noone is expected to think for themselves and they are the worse for it   surely common sense should cover situations that are over amplefied  by do gooders.

[adb968008]

5 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

1. This whole situation makes you realise how  the population of our country has declined in being able to do simple things such as not open doors whilst the train is in motion. When I first started use trains in the early 1950,s  Iknew not to open a train door when it was in motion.But now there is so much legislation   that noone is expected to think for themselves and they are the worse for it   surely common sense should cover situations that are over amplefied  by do gooders.

its quite often for people to compare ourselves to europeans or americans on matter of commonsense around railways.

However on this one both lead the way… Both Amtrak and UIC have used a form of automatically locking door since the 1960’s.

what maybe a more valid question is why were mk1’s, and definitely mk2’s not built with a form of cdl ?

 

weve really lagged behind there, and also the use of bright headlights… theyve been in use in the US since the start of railways!

 

Edited January 12 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

1. This whole situation makes you realise how  the population of our country has declined in being able to do simple things such as not open doors whilst the train is in motion. When I first started use trains in the early 1950,s  Iknew not to open a train door when it was in motion.But now there is so much legislation   that noone is expected to think for themselves and they are the worse for it   surely common sense should cover situations that are over amplefied  by do gooders.

So in your commonsense past people didn't fall out of trains?

 

BR just installed door locks because they felt like doing it?

 

It's just health and safety gone mad isn't it.

[The Stationmaster]

West Coast have played fast and loose with safety management and compliance for a long while and it was - and might still be judging by their going to cour for Judicial Review.  The investigation following the Wootton Bassett SPAD revealed an utterly appalling situation in respect of the most basic levels of safety management within the company and they were quick to try to seek a cheap way out without going to people who could je help them. That said even more about their attitude.

 

They have done just the same on the 'Jacobite' by failing to correctly implement their own procedures which enabled them to be compliant pending fitting of CDL (for which they had no programme anyway for stock used on that route).

 

To be blunt I would have shut them down a long while back.  The ORR have continued to give then a chance for about as long as they could and when they found that WCRC was not even complying with its own safety procedure they had no choice but to shut down the Jacobite operation.  But even then some limited term further use of the mitigation - subject to various guarantees from WCRC - was allowed.  

 

After a clear verdict frm the Judicial Revie confirming that the ORR had the powers and responsibility to do what it had been doing in ensuring compliance with various legislation and regulations what do WCRC do but irresponsibly start taking bookings for a 2024 season.   No wonder they've finished up with a Certificate of Revocation - they basically left the ORR with no choice but to go for that..   The question now of course is whether the Jacobite is bigger than WCRC and could some other operator with compliant stock and suitable traction step in?  We'll see.

[DavidBird]

20 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

... The question now of course is whether the Jacobite is bigger than WCRC and could some other operator with compliant stock and suitable traction step in?  We'll see.

 

There is an obvious candidate for that, with a local connection too...

 

Does WCRC own the paths on the line? Could they prevent another operator from running trains in the paths?  It was apparent from the publicly available data on RTT that they were activating trains on TRUST that they were prohibited from running, during the period that ScotRail were running an additional service.

Edited January 12 by DavidBird

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

1. This whole situation makes you realise how  the population of our country has declined in being able to do simple things such as not open doors whilst the train is in motion. When I first started use trains in the early 1950,s  Iknew not to open a train door when it was in motion.But now there is so much legislation   that noone is expected to think for themselves and they are the worse for it   surely common sense should cover situations that are over amplefied  by do gooders.

BR started using central locking for the simple reason that people were falling out of trains,

 

The 'Tamworth Triangle' incidents 1990-91

Two people had fallen out of train doors in Tamworth and died in 1990. Another person fell out near to Tamworth, and was badly injured but later made a full recovery. There were also a few cases of people finding doors had come open but no one was injured or had fallen out of the moving train.

In Summer 1991 three teenagers and 2 adults fell out of doors on express trains and later died from their injuries. The first two deaths occurred near Tamworth, Staffordshire, the third near Nuneaton, Warwickshire a few days later. The last 2 occurred  near Lichfield, in Staffordshire.

There were also several accidental door opening incidents in which no one actually fell out of the train  reported in the area at the time.

The local coroner stated that the UK's total of mysterious deaths by falling from trains since BR was founded had reached 325. That worked out at about one every 7 weeks.

[5944]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

its quite often for people to compare ourselves to europeans or americans on matter of commonsense around railways.

However on this one both lead the way… Both Amtrak and UIC have used a form of automatically locking door since the 1960’s.

what maybe a more valid question is why were mk1’s, and definitely mk2’s not built with a form of cdl ?

 

weve really lagged behind there, and also the use of bright headlights… theyve been in use in the US since the start of railways!

 

Indeed, Britain's railways have always been quite backwards. Vacuum brakes, unfitted freights, tiny wagons, restricted loading gauge, lack of electrification. 

 

With regards people saying why is CDL needed on charter trains, the only other use of slam doors on the network now is the Night Riviera. People aren't used to hinged doors on trains any more - 20 years ago there were thousands of vehicles, now it's a few sleepers and a charter sets. Chances are the vast majority of passengers on the Jacobite won't have seen a train door that doesn't open by pressing a button.

 

As others have said, it's a struggle to feel any sympathy for WCRC in this situation. They've had decades to come up with a solution. Railway Touring Company however have potentially seen their whole programme for the year wiped out. Riviera have a set of Mk2 air cons available, but there's a lack of air braked steam locos available at the moment that aren't tied to LSL.

[johnofwessex]

It has been pointed out elsewhere that in the good old days there would usually be at least one accident with passenger fatalities a year and a few passenger train accidents without fatalities, that kept HMRI busy.

 

A combination of changes means that there wasnt a passenger fatality between Grayrigg and Carmont, a period of 13years so the Regulator was then able to start to look at the 'less obvious' risks, things like slips trips and falls.

 

Clearly 'slam door' stock and in particular after two fatalities the ability of passengers to put their heads out of trains would be looked at hard, it's just that one player in the market wasn't able to see it coming.

 

 

[rodent279]

7 hours ago, lmsforever said:

1. This whole situation makes you realise how  the population of our country has declined in being able to do simple things such as not open doors whilst the train is in motion. When I first started use trains in the early 1950,s  Iknew not to open a train door when it was in motion.But now there is so much legislation   that noone is expected to think for themselves and they are the worse for it   surely common sense should cover situations that are over amplefied  by do gooders.

So did I. The past was such a nice, rose tinted place wasn't? Nothing nasty ever happened, people had "common sense" and knew how to look after themselves didn't they? Maybe you think not wearing a seatbelt is ok, or wearing a cycle helmet is for namby pamby woftee softees who need to man up, as well?

But the nature of the people using the railway now has changed, they simply are not used to slam lock doors, or to the idea that a door can be opened whilst a train is moving. As referred to above, for years up until the early 90's the majority of passenger trains did not have automatic doors that locked whilst the train is moving, something in which most other European countries were far ahead of us on. 325 deaths from falling from moving trains speaks for itself.

[frobisher]

9 hours ago, Legend said:

Serious stuff for the Lochaber economy . Hope they get it sorted or one of the major draws for foreign visitors is going to impact on the credibility of the whole tourism industry in Scotland . Can’t even run a train! 

 

I think you may be overestimating the impact of those couple of hundred passengers have on the local economy compared to couple of thousand that come in on the cruise liners.

[Mike Bellamy]

15 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

I think you may be overestimating the impact of those couple of hundred passengers have on the local economy 

 

Especially if it was like our visit in Mid August BC (Before Covid) when the strong wind and heavy rain meant that most passengers stayed on the train . . . !

.

[jjb1970]

I have zero sympathy for WCRC and their leadership, but I am sympathetic to the plight of their employees (most of who will be regular people doing a job like the rest of us) who may face unemployment. 

[ruggedpeak]

21 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

I think you may be overestimating the impact of those couple of hundred passengers have on the local economy compared to couple of thousand that come in on the cruise liners.

Yes, WCR are just playing the victim card to try and distract from their own deliberate actions and failings. If the local economy or WCR staff suffer it is a direct result of the decisions of WCR's management, no one else. However it requires a certain degree of maturity, intellect and professionalism to understand this.

[ruggedpeak]

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

To be blunt I would have shut them down a long while back.  The ORR have continued to give then a chance for about as long as they could and when they found that WCRC was not even complying with its own safety procedure they had no choice but to shut down the Jacobite operation.  But even then some limited term further use of the mitigation - subject to various guarantees from WCRC - was allowed. 

Due to the general ineptitude, cronyism, corruption and stupidty of the UK legal and regulatory systems shutting down outfits like this is difficult. In properly run countries they would already be off the railways. They should have been banned permanently after their response to Wootton IMHO.

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, 5944 said:

Indeed, Britain's railways have always been quite backwards. Vacuum brakes, unfitted freights, tiny wagons, restricted loading gauge, lack of electrification. 

 

With regards people saying why is CDL needed on charter trains, the only other use of slam doors on the network now is the Night Riviera. People aren't used to hinged doors on trains any more - 20 years ago there were thousands of vehicles, now it's a few sleepers and a charter sets. Chances are the vast majority of passengers on the Jacobite won't have seen a train door that doesn't open by pressing a button.

 

As others have said, it's a struggle to feel any sympathy for WCRC in this situation. They've had decades to come up with a solution. Railway Touring Company however have potentially seen their whole programme for the year wiped out. Riviera have a set of Mk2 air cons available, but there's a lack of air braked steam locos available at the moment that aren't tied to LSL.

Iwould think that quite a number of passengers on The jacobite have never seen any type of train door from the inside.

A far cry from 1960 when I was introduced to the morning rush hour arrival at Euston. The doors would open at the start of the platform and half the people would be out of the train before it had come to a halt. It might sound mad these days, but  the circumstances and expectations were very different back then.

Bernard

[rodent279]

And in a lot of cases, if you did not open the door and jump off while the train was still moving, you got grumbled at. Been there, done it, I knew it was silly at the time, but I still did it. I wouldn't now.

[ruggedpeak]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Iwould think that quite a number of passengers on The jacobite have never seen any type of train door from the inside.

A far cry from 1960 when I was introduced to the morning rush hour arrival at Euston. The doors would open at the start of the platform and half the people would be out of the train before it had come to a halt. It might sound mad these days, but  the circumstances and expectations were very different back then.

Bernard

Yes.

 

I think we have to be fair and realise many of us on this forum grew up and lived with with slam door stock and manual doors. My own now adult children lived and grew up in East Anglia and never travelled on a Norwich bound mk3 with proper doors(!), so have only ever experienced MU trains with push button operated doors or automatic doors on the Tube, other than a few heritage rail trips. They grew up in a world where operating things, even down to lights and cookers is more likely to be a touch screen or soft button as anything mechanical. It is unfair of those who criticise the younger generation for not understanding a world they have not lived in. Do we criticise them for not climbing to the top of tall chimneys with just a ladder and demolishing them by knocking a hole in them and starting a fire a la Fred Dibnah?

 

CDL's is catching up with that reality in society.

[St Enodoc]

On 25/12/2023 at 00:00, Neil said:

 

From a financial standpoint the 'worthwhile' cost might be higher than commonly imagined. Back in 1997 the D of T put a figure of £860,000 on a human life. I would guess that it's well north of a million by now though I haven't been able to find confirmation of this yet.

That's not the value of a life, it's the value of preventing a death. Quite different.

[St Enodoc]

On 08/01/2024 at 20:24, jjb1970 said:

I thought I'd pushed things too far once. I was given the third degree about why I had several passport stamps for a certain Middle Eastern country and explained I was on a ship which had been based there to support offshore energy operations. The guy kept asking the most asinine questions, at one point I said that I wasn't responsible for commercial decisions of my employer as to where they would bid for work which seemed to inflame things, inflamed further by pointing out that the client was a company headed by the then VP of the USA. Eventually I kind of flipped and pointed out I was in transit to Trinidad, I didn't want to be in the US and if they weren't happy about my travel history just fly me home as I really wasn't bothered about being denied entry to the US (as an aside the US is the only country I've ever transited in where transfer passengers enter the country, everywhere else you just stay airside and aren't affected by immigration). At that point the guy flipped and a supervisor came and calmed things down. The supervisor was actually very nice, he told me he understood why I was unhappy and it hadn't been well handled but equally I should avoid inflaming things.

I was once at Bangkok Airport, late at night, in transit from Kuala Lumpur to Tel Aviv (don't ask...). Having got through the 90-minute inquisition (which, dispassionately, I thought was extremely clever) I was asked by a lady who looked like Rosa Klebb's sister whether I had a bomb in my suitcase. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have replied "I don't know - I've no idea what one looks like".

[adb968008]

I do think though that cdl on its own isnt the answer.

As people say. (And ive seen) people dont know how to open the doors.

stewards will still be needed, with cdl, and definitely in an emergency.

 

I do wonder though…

 

Will WCRC throw in the towel ?

None of them are any younger either.

The JR could have been a calculated way of extending the revenue for a year post poning the inevitable.

They have a higher mountain to climb than the other operators, due to the volume of stock, variation of stock (its not just mk1’s) and vaccuum braked nature.

 

WCRC has been retreating for a few years, they certainly only operate a fraction of what the used to in the south and heavily focused on Cumbria the last few years.

This is only going to retreat them more.

 

I accept this is WCRCs own failing, but it could also be symptomatic of a shrinking viability of the hobby… weve seen other big branches fall this week Warley, Hattons (and Hornbys lacklustre approach to the year)… the big branches are falling and maybe the wider “railway” hobby has reached its peak… I just hope some preserved lines dont give up to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12 by adb968008

[ruggedpeak]

 

41 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I do think though that cdl on its own isnt the answer.

As people say. (And ive seen) people dont know how to open the doors.

stewards will still be needed, with cdl, and definitely in an emergency.

 

I do wonder though…

 

Will WCRC throw in the towel ?

None of them are any younger either.

The JR could have been a calculated way of extending the revenue for a year post poning the inevitable.

They have a higher mountain to climb than the other operators, due to the volume of stock, variation of stock (its not just mk1’s) and vaccuum braked nature.

 

WCRC has been retreating for a few years, they certainly only operate a fraction of what the used to in the south and heavily focused on Cumbria the last few years.

This is only going to retreat them more.

 

I accept this is WCRCs own failing, but it could also be symptomatic of a shrinking viability of the hobby… weve seen other big branches fall this week Warley, Hattons (and Hornbys lacklustre approach to the year)… the big branches are falling and maybe the wider hobby has reached its peak.

But if we believe what was said in court, certainly for the Jacobite, it is so profitable putting in CDL is entirely possible. It could also help fund other stock upgrades.

 

I'd have thought the smart solution would have been to bend over backwards to demonstrate compliance on the profitable and high profile Jacobite services to get in ORR's good books to negotiate flexibility on exemptions on other stock. They seem to have decided to play Russian roulette with a large chunk of the business and lost. Their track (!) record of engagement with regulators on safety issues is not ideal (and this is now a big juicy media story waiting to break if/when someone gets hurt along with the usual "who the hell let this happen" media outrage), and it is now coming back to haunt them with added karma. But may be the JR was the last roll of the dice for them. We shall see.

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

The JR could have been a calculated way of extending the revenue for a year post poning the inevitable.

I thought that. Expensive way to throw in the towel though. And who would work with them in future?

[black and decker boy]

WCRC is very profitable, just under £3m from around £11m turnover in their latest published accounts.

 

the court evidence provided insight that the Jacobite brings in £1m of profit on approx £5 or £6m of turnover.

 

they have just bought a new kettle or two so must have ambitions / expectations on continuing to operate something

 

lets see what the trigger for the revocation was, have West Coast tried it on again, has there been another transgression this week or is this ORR just stamping its authority on events?

 

it still remains that all the revocation does is stop West Coast operating heritage coaches not fitted with CDL. They can still run services if they have CDL fitted and operable to their coaches.

 

 

[number6]

10 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The local coroner stated that the UK's total of mysterious deaths by falling from trains since BR was founded had reached 325. That worked out at about one every 7 weeks.

 

Doors should have locks. A friend of my Mother around the 1990s time told us that she had been on a WCML train, went down the carriage to the loo and noticed the door was slightly open. She tried to close it fully but it opened and dragged her outside with it. She said she was trapped against the door by the wind and the fact her arm was through the window for 'what seemed like ages' until she was able to inch back into the vestibule. Another passing passenger then helped her get the door shut and I've no idea if the guard was informed or the communication card was pulled or the train stopped. I remember us all sat there in shock while she told the story... I've seen doors opened and slammed shut on moving trains countless times in 'the old days', Seen people fall flat on their face jumping off coming into stations, people open doors off the end of platforms, get off the wrong side of the train onto the track in the dark etc. etc. I'm not sure people were that much better at behaving themselves around doors... 

Edited January 12 by number6
typo