WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[black and decker boy]

14 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The NYMR has an exemption running for running to Whitby on Network Rail, but it is limited to 25mph.

Yes, that is NYMR as a mainline operator (open access).

The exemption is only when on National network, running on a specific line at a specific speed. It is not for any other routes.

 

when on their own light railway , they need no exemption.

 

The Jacobite does not run at 25mph or less. The coaches are not confined to the WHL extension. The Jacobite isn’t the only service West Coast runs under its exemption. The NYMR isn’t therefore a precedent for West Coast but rather the exception that proves the rule.

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

The Jacobite does not run at 25mph or less. The coaches are not confined to the WHL extension. The Jacobite isn’t the only service West Coast runs under its exemption. The NYMR isn’t therefore a precedent for West Coast but rather the exception that proves the rule.

I think we had a discussion about WHR timetabling up the thread or maybe on another one. The pathing of the Jacobite depends on running above 25mph as otherwise the Scotrail timetable doesn't work.

[johnofwessex]

I wonder if the Scottish Government might intervene and look for a replacement operator for The Jacobite?

[black and decker boy]

6 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

I wonder if the Scottish Government might intervene and look for a replacement operator for The Jacobite?

It’s not a franchised service. It isn’t sponsored by Holyrood. 
 

WCRC are effectively an open access operator and they “own” the paths.

 

its still fixable by WCRC

[jjb1970]

I know I am a record with a scratch on this, but a former role involved providing consulting services to maritime Administrations to investigate incidents. Many do not have the capability or capacity to investigate incidents which demand analytical and technical work so I was often given files on seafarers burnt to death in engine room fires and such like. In every case, and I mean EVERY case, the incidents were entirely preventable, doing so would not have been a financial or administrative burden and I'd estimate in more than 95% of cases would have been prevented by proper implementation of existing legal requirements, class rules and company procedures (those former seafarers here will get what I am saying when I say more than three quarters would not have happened if the spray containment and hot surface screening requirements of SOLAS had been implemented and things like exhaust shields maintained in good condition).

 

Now thankfully I was an office wallah so never had to witness the unpleasantness in person, but I always received the complete document package and reviewed it to remind myself of why I had to do a good job. Believe me, the results of burning to death in an oil fire are not nice. I don't imagine many ways of dying to be nice (I think we all hope to just pass away peacefully in our sleep) but I find something particularly horrifying about the thought of burning to death, engulfed in flames. In every case the people concerned had all necessary certificates of competency, had completed all sorts of training and would have been considered intelligent, competent persons. This is a key point many can't seem to comprehend - there is a fundamental difference between a person doing something we might consider to be stupid, and that person being stupid. If we are honest all of us have lapses of judgement, do silly things, that does not mean people are stupid. There is a culture of seeing some incidents as jolly good entertainment, joking about 'Darwin awards' etc and imagining stupid people deserve to be weeded out of the gene pool, ignoring the fact that any one of us can make a stupid misjudgement and end up as one of those Darwin award candidates.

 

There is absolutely no excuse for shoddy risk management, for accepting shoddy risk management and I find efforts to try and excuse it appalling. This may be a rant. Sorry.

[jjb1970]

On coffee, 'elf'n safety gone mad cases on coffee always seem to lead back to the infamous McDonalds case in the US. I suggest reading up on that case, contrary to how tabloids and media talking heads presented it the case was not frivolous and McDonalds deserved to be taken to the cleaners.

[Matt37268]

6 hours ago, class26 said:

 

Actually it doesn`t bother me either, I am simple making a point that it is uneccesary and nanny state at its worst. We expect water in the hot tap to be hot surely ?.

The brewery I work at makes several sour beers, we include the word sour in what it is, so say it has cherry’s in it it’s a cherry sour, we’re more than willing to offer tasters, samples whatever you want to call it. 

Yet we have customers who order our sours and are then surprised that it tastes sour, the all time classic being a few weeks ago when someone ordered our latest offering without trying, then complained it tasted sour.

The quote from them was ‘sour beer is that a thing then?’ 
‘Well, yes and it quite clearly states so on the menu what it is’ 

 

What is the quote about making something idiot proof yet someone comes up with a better version of idiot springs to mind. 

[St Enodoc]

15 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Campaign changing all the door locks on a 304 EMU.

That must have been the one I used to catch from Polesworth to Tamworth every morning!

[MarkC]

6 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

The brewery I work at makes several sour beers, we include the word sour in what it is, so say it has cherry’s in it it’s a cherry sour, we’re more than willing to offer tasters, samples whatever you want to call it. 

Yet we have customers who order our sours and are then surprised that it tastes sour, the all time classic being a few weeks ago when someone ordered our latest offering without trying, then complained it tasted sour.

The quote from them was ‘sour beer is that a thing then?’ 
‘Well, yes and it quite clearly states so on the menu what it is’ 

 

What is the quote about making something idiot proof yet someone comes up with a better version of idiot springs to mind. 

If breathing wasn't an automatic function then some folk would be in serious trouble...

 

Mark

[Bucoops]

My favourite warning

 

[frobisher]

10 hours ago, Legend said:

Don’t think so . And I am a fully accredited cruiser although usually in Med or Caribbean . Maybe large volumes spending relatively little . Locally the same is also true of folks hiring motor homes , perhaps they need to fill up on route but they’ve bought all the groceries before they go . This is a big issue in area as they are contributing relatively little to the region but clogging roads and dumping rubbish . So these are big issues in the Highlands . Don’t think for one minute the disappearance of the Jacobite will just be accepted . 
 

In any case as I’ve said before the Lochaber tourist market is not cruisers . It’s people who come and book hotel nights specifically to see the Jacobite or “Harry Potter Train “ and so is very significant in the local area. Furthermore the Jacobite crossing Glenfinnan viaduct is frequently used in Tourism adverts , it was even used in the Hogmanay show up here in Scotland !  So it had a much wider symbolism . 

 

The situation you're listing in the second paragraph sounds an awful lot like the problems you're citing in the first, just saying.  Lochaber has a very limited carrying capacity itself for hotel accommodation so many of those coming down to see the Jacobite aren't staying locally in any case but are in the locality.

 

My experience with cruise liners is more concerned with the pro-active UK visitors who're organised enough to have booked private tours.  I know what value they bring into the local economy.  I also know that for every tour my company took last year we had to turn back 3 more turning up on foot and trying to book on the day, plus a similar quantity rebuffed beforehand due to being at capacity.

[5944]

11 hours ago, Legend said:

Don’t think so . And I am a fully accredited cruiser although usually in Med or Caribbean . Maybe large volumes spending relatively little . Locally the same is also true of folks hiring motor homes , perhaps they need to fill up on route but they’ve bought all the groceries before they go . This is a big issue in area as they are contributing relatively little to the region but clogging roads and dumping rubbish . So these are big issues in the Highlands . Don’t think for one minute the disappearance of the Jacobite will just be accepted . 
 

In any case as I’ve said before the Lochaber tourist market is not cruisers . It’s people who come and book hotel nights specifically to see the Jacobite or “Harry Potter Train “ and so is very significant in the local area. Furthermore the Jacobite crossing Glenfinnan viaduct is frequently used in Tourism adverts , it was even used in the Hogmanay show up here in Scotland !  So it had a much wider symbolism . 
 

I’m not a West Coast Railways advocate. . They may we’ll be stirring the situation by taking bookings for the 2024 season without having the equipment to do it! There will be a furore when they can’t deliver , and that will be real  but part of that will be directed at ORR . 
 

Now safety is paramount and I can well see the need for CDL in Mainline operations . However just as it’s not required for preserved railways, should there not be an exemption specifically for the Jacobite , assuming that WCRC have other provisions in place to ensure safety  . I know they were caught out by ORR on inspection in 2023 , but have since taken on the stewards necessary .  
 

Again I ask how many people have been injured on the Jacobite . What is needed is common sense and pragmatic approach to the situation .  

None - yet. But something was flagged up by a whistleblower and they had two ORR visits so something clearly wasn't right up there. Plus several other instances of trains moving with doors open in recent years. 

 

They've got enough spare stock sitting around to be able to fit CDL without affecting day to day work. SRPS and Belmond are using an electrical system, so fitting CDL to vacuum brake stock is entirely possible.

[johnofwessex]

10 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

It’s not a franchised service. It isn’t sponsored by Holyrood. 
 

WCRC are effectively an open access operator and they “own” the paths.

 

its still fixable by WCRC

 

Given that The Jacobite is a high profile attraction which earns a lot for the local economy, I suggest that they MIGHT become interested in what's happening and step in if it was under threat due to WCRC's behaviour

[BoD]

13 minutes ago, frobisher said:

My experience with cruise liners is more concerned with the pro-active UK visitors who're organised enough to have booked private tours.  I know what value they bring into the local economy.  I also know that for every tour my company took last year we had to turn back 3 more turning up on foot and trying to book on the day, plus a similar quantity rebuffed beforehand due to being at capacity.

 

I don't know the actual figures so I'm only speaking from observation and that report quoted earlier but I guess Kirkwall has a much greater number of cruise visitors than Lochaber.  When I was visiting Kirkwall, not on a cruise, there were two largish cruise ships in each day.  (Do you ever get more?)  According to that report on the cruise economy Fort William only allow one cruise ship to dock per day and then it is one of the much smaller boutique size ships. I have only ever seen that size ship at Oban too.  Do any cruise ships get to Mallaig?  When I have been in Mallaig the town certainly seems to fill and empty with the coming and going of the Jacobite.

 

I don't think WCRC are overstating things when playing the tourist effect on the economy card - I'm not saying that that it makes it a valid argument in this case though.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

It’s not a franchised service. It isn’t sponsored by Holyrood. 
 

WCRC are effectively an open access operator and they “own” the paths.

 

its still fixable by WCRC

Any of us with an interest in this situation or an interest in railway oprations and safety, or wider safety, know that WCRC are likely to have the means to 'fix' this.  But equally they had those means  when they were shut down last year and they didn't. use them then.

 

To me their continued approach to this together with their legal action,  their taking bookings for 2024, and their recent statement, suggests to me that they are less interested in 'fixing things' (assuming they do have sufficient Mk2s with CDL?) than they are in portraying it all as 'somebody else's fault' with them as 'victims'..  That is definitely how their behaviour comes over to me.

 

It goes back too, I think, to my previous comments about WCRC's past attitude to the management of operational safety where at times they have appeared to both regard themselves as an untouchable 'special case' and, demonstrably, as a concern to which 'the rules', and imagined 'bureaucracy', do not apply.

 

As for other comments about so called 'safety warning' on  various products and so on T Ithink we clearly need to recognise that safety and attempts to avoid litigation are two very different thing.  And the people who put these so called 'warning' on whatever really do need to be aware that such 'warnings' do not relieve them of their legally required   duty of care (in the UK if nowhere else).

Edited January 14 by The Stationmaster

[Michael Hodgson]

11 hours ago, Legend said:

Again I ask how many people have been injured on the Jacobite .

So we've got to kill somebody before we fix a problem?

 

HMRI and factory inspectors were dealing with the aftermath of poor practice for years.  At least we've moved forward to trying to prevent accidents.

[TheSignalEngineer]

10 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I think we had a discussion about WHR timetabling up the thread or maybe on another one. The pathing of the Jacobite depends on running above 25mph as otherwise the Scotrail timetable doesn't work.

We had a detailed discussion on 30 July 2023. See page 9 above. The WHR timetable is such that whilst it could possibly be juggled a bit, a delay to the North Blyth Alcan has implications right across to the ECML and the last Up Scotrail train connects with the Highland Sleeper, delaying which can mess up pathing of the morning peak trains at Euston. Some services are also tied in with combining with Oban line trains at Crianlarich and they have to fit between other services between Dumbarton and Glasgow.

[papagolfjuliet]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

My favourite warning

 

 

I'm rather fond of the CONTAINS NUTS warnings on packets of... nuts.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

13 hours ago, Legend said:

Again I ask how many people have been injured on the Jacobite .

So we've got to kill somebody before we fix a problem?

 

After a BR reorganisation in the 1980s I told my new boss that a system that was proposed for use on a project had flaws which made it unsafe for use and couldn't be fixed before the required in service date. His reply was 'we may have to kill a few before it's right'. I just about managed to stop my assistant from decking him. His father was a guard who had recently had a lucky escape in a derailment caused by a rail flaw. Had it been in the other rail they would have gone 30 feet down an embankment.

I told the boss to go outside, think about what he had said and never to say anything like that again in front of my staff.

Edited January 14 by TheSignalEngineer

[rodent279]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

So we've got to kill somebody before we fix a problem?

OT, but sometimes that does seem to be the approach. We used to live on a road that was used as a rat run. It was a residential area, 30mph, lots of parked cars, several bends and on a hill. We asked the council about traffic calming measures and they put up a speed trap right outside our house for 6 months.  After the data collection period was over, the council said they would not do anything as the median vehicle speed was only 40mph*, and only 3 cars had been detected exceeding 70mph.

I read that as "until someone dies or is seriously injured, we won't do anything".

 

*might not have been 40, but certainly well over 30.

[Wheatley]

33 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

So we've got to kill somebody before we fix a problem?

 

HMRI and factory inspectors were dealing with the aftermath of poor practice for years.  At least we've moved forward to trying to prevent accidents.

 

Agreed. The risks to charter train passengers are exactly the same as those the 325 dead people were exposed to, with the exception of more tendency to try and look out of the door droplights. The frequency of exposure to risk across the national network has changed, but that just means you're likely to kill them less often. It's still an uncontrolled (and easily controllable) fatal risk. 

 

11 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

Yes, that is NYMR as a mainline operator (open access).

The exemption is only when on National network, running on a specific line at a specific speed. It is not for any other routes.

 

when on their own light railway , they need no exemption.

 

The Jacobite does not run at 25mph or less. The coaches are not confined to the WHL extension. The Jacobite isn’t the only service West Coast runs under its exemption. The NYMR isn’t therefore a precedent for West Coast but rather the exception that proves the rule.

Indeed. The NYMR only has the paths because the franchised service is so sparse  they aren't getting in Northern's way trundling about at 25mph. If it becomes the case that the service frequency improves and 25mph is no longer practicable then they'll need to fit CDL. I assume they're in the process of fitting it anyway as the exemptions are timebound and not perpetual (as WCRC have found). That said, there are greater challenges to raising line speeds on the Esk Valley than NYMR services. 

 

On the wider Value of Prevented Fatalities discussion, beware of using road risk as a comparitor. Society is far more tolerant of killing people on the roads because people perceive that they have some degree of control over their own destiny in a car. 

Edited January 14 by Wheatley

[Legend]

44 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

So we've got to kill somebody before we fix a problem?

 

HMRI and factory inspectors were dealing with the aftermath of poor practice for years.  At least we've moved forward to trying to prevent accidents.

Of course not .  You identify the risk , assess it , and you put procedures in place to mitigate the risk . But in the case of the Jacobite that may not be CDL but enhanced stewardship .  Again what I am looking at is a pragmatic view, and no that doesn’t mean I’m prepared to accept injuries , but is there another way to manage the perceived risk  that allows this train to continue to run ? 

[johnofwessex]

10 minutes ago, Legend said:

........................ but is there another way to manage the perceived risk  that allows this train to continue to run ? 

 

Well, there was supposed to be '....another way to manage the perceived risk...' but it wasnt applied

[BoD]

14 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

 

Well, there was supposed to be '....another way to manage the perceived risk...' but it wasnt applied

… and wasn’t that ‘management of the risk’ only supposed to be in place temporarily whilst the particular risk itself was dealt with?  That it wasn’t is why we have this topic today.

[The Stationmaster]

27 minutes ago, Legend said:

Of course not .  You identify the risk , assess it , and you put procedures in place to mitigate the risk . But in the case of the Jacobite that may not be CDL but enhanced stewardship .  Again what I am looking at is a pragmatic view, and no that doesn’t mean I’m prepared to accept injuries , but is there another way to manage the perceived risk  that allows this train to continue to run ? 

But it would seem to have been proven that WCRC could not be trusted to provide the level of stewardship their own mitigation procedure required.  I'm not quite sure how you otherwise deal with an organisation which has, more than once, demonstrated a failure to do what it had undertaken to do in order to secure an exemption (which in any case was of a limited term and would eventually expire anyway)?