WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[black and decker boy]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Nearly every train was slam door, bar some commuter EmUs

none had any form of door lock.

none had any stewards.

How many have fallen to their deaths in the last 5 years to 2019 which is much more relevent ?

 

Old numbers mean nothing unless your proposing to go back to those standards.

why not dig up numbers from. 1829 when trains had no roof and no door latch either?

 

remember a judge has to be neutral.

 

 

Risk assessment, as I’m sure you know, is a multiplier of likelihood and consequence.

 

control measure can only affect likelihood. Consequence is a constant.

 

if you fall out of or are close to a hinged door that opens at 100mph, the consequence is pretty horrific / terminal.

 

the likelihood has decreased as slam door stock had been replaced but isn’t 0.

 

CDL further reduces that likelihood.

 

SDL (WCRC control method) relies heavily on human action, it is therefore less reliable as a control measure than CDL

 

the number of recent smaller incidents with SDL suggests a larger incident with far larger impact, is coming. Could be 1 month, 6 months or 6 years but the control measure is proven to be insufficient (2 prohibition notices in short succession tell us the that).

Edited April 7 by black and decker boy
Typo

[rodent279]

On 06/04/2024 at 13:36, rodent279 said:

If Hastings Diesels can do it I don't see why WCRC should be exempt. Seems like they (WCRC) are saying "we're big, please don't hit us".

Here is the inside of the same door:

 

[david.hill64]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Nearly every train was slam door, bar some commuter EmUs

none had any form of door lock.

none had any stewards.

How many have fallen to their deaths in the last 5 years to 2019 which is much more relevent ?

 

Old numbers mean nothing unless your proposing to go back to those standards.

why not dig up numbers from. 1829 when trains had no roof and no door latch either?

 

remember a judge has to be neutral.

 

 

Modern safety management has moved on from reacting to past events and putting in place standards, rules and regulations to stop them happening again to a proactive risk based approach. We now brainstorm things that could go wrong - and past experience is still vital - and try to assess the probability and consequence of the hazard materialising. 

 

Even if there were no accidents associated with slam door stock in the 5 years up to 2019, that doesn't preclude the possibility of one or more fatalities this year.

 

I agree that the probability is low, but it isn't zero. There will also be an increasing number of passengers who have never experienced the joys of leaning out of a window to use the door handle. Lack of familiarity with the set up is likely to lead to error. Perhaps the probability increases as years pass?

 

Having identified the hazard, its associated risk (= probability * consequence) needs to be managed. If it cannot be eliminated then it needs to be As Low As Reasonably Practicable. WCRC has a duty to demonstrate this. If they cannot then they will be in breach of their legal obligations. If WCRC proposes something other than CDL then they will have to demonstrate that the alternative is a more effective risk reduction measure. That is how the judge will decide.

 

[rogerzilla]

I was just starting work in the Birmingham area back in 1990 and remember the "Tamworth Triangle" series of deaths which finally gave central locking the push it needed.  Prior to that, doors were left unlocked for safety reasons (locked doors had led to additional deaths in train fires) and the technology for central locking wasn't there anyway.

 

Interestingly, alcohol was considered to be a factor in the Tamworth Triangle accidents, as it was the right kind of distance from Euston for passengers to become comfortably inebriated.  I don't know how boozy WCR excursions are.

Edited April 8 by rogerzilla

[rodent279]

https://1991-new-world-order.fandom.com/wiki/The_'Tamworth_Triangle'#:~:text=May 11 %2F August 7%2C 1991,Warwickshire a few days later.

[2251]

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Nearly every train was slam door, bar some commuter EmUs

none had any form of door lock.

none had any stewards.

How many have fallen to their deaths in the last 5 years to 2019 which is much more relevent ?

 

Old numbers mean nothing unless your proposing to go back to those standards.

why not dig up numbers from. 1829 when trains had no roof and no door latch either?

 

remember a judge has to be neutral.

 

 

If you had read the report linked above, Passenger Falls from Train Doors, you would appreciate what the data unquestionably shows: that slam door stock is inherently dangerous.

 

Part of the work done included an assessment of “information available on incidents involving slam doors occurring between 1984 and 1991 in which passengers were killed or injured” (para 150). A total of 270 incidents were identified “where death or injury has resulted from a fall from a slam door in the eight years from 1984 to 1991, an average of just under 34 incidents per year” (para 213). As Jeremy pointed out above, of those, “In 155 (57.4%) of the incidents, the person was fatally injured” (para 177).

 

In other words, in the second half of the 1980s, on average, slightly under 20 people per year were killed as a result of a fall from a slam door.

 

It is wrong to say that at the time of the HSE report, “Nearly every train was slam door”: as the report notes “Forty per cent of British Rail passenger carriage doors are now power-operated and controlled by the train crew (para 13). My recollection is that CDL started to be fitted at about the same time the HSE report was published.

 

As I have also pointed out above, while a judge obviously has to be impartial, that is largely irrelevant. The court is not in this context deciding what ought to be done, or where fault lies: it is deciding whether the decision of a regulator (to whose judgement it affords considerable deference) was reached as a result of a procedurally fair process and is reasonable, in the sense of being within the band of decisions a reasonable regulator, acting reasonably, might arrive at.

[Morello Cherry]

I am not sure I would read too much into the various MPs signing the letter. There is an election in 6 months and most politicians would sign anything if they think it will win them a few more votes.

 

The deaths of about 1 every 2 weeks when there were large numbers of slam door stock running seem about right. I can remember the frequent start - lurch to a halt, shut the errant door, restart routine. The numbers show just how much of a risk slam doors are. A university friend of my cousin was killed falling out of a door, certainly I actively avoided ever sitting or standing next to a slam door. The last thing I wanted was to lurch over some pointwork or rough track and find that the door was not securely shut.

 

It would be interesting to know how many people were injured in this period falling from trains where there was no platform or opening the door on the wrong side.

 

Interestingly and I think relevent in a recent edition of Pines Express, there were the memoirs of a former member of staff at Shepton Mallet station, he recounted how a train had overshot the station and ended up on the viaduct. It was dark and before they had a chance to warn people a passenger thinking they were in the station opened the door, stepped out onto the viaduct parapet from where they fell to their death. Incidents so common that they are barely reported as out of the ordinary.

 

I don't see WRC's attitude to be different from a certain someone who made a special lockdown visit to Glenfinnan viaduct 'to test the toilets'. There is a degree of entitlement within railway heritage among those who have the money to play on the mainline that rules are some how for the proles not the likes of them.

 

Southall and Carnforth whenever I went past looked more like a decaying scrapyard than a professional engineering/railway company.

 

The RAIB reports normally include a section marked 'learning points' it is clear that WRC have not learnt from Wootton Bassett etc.

 

This is all entirely self inflicted by WRC, all they have to do is fit the CDL. If they had met the terms of their exception then they would have been fine, if they didn't have a track record of playing fast and loose with health and safety then they wouldn't have brought this on themselves.

[Ian Hargrave]

And WCRC have returned The Jacobite Mk 1 stock to FW ,still without CDL,to FW. Seen on Leslie Gilpin’s YouTube channel northbound at Carlisle yesterday.Is this some kind of Highland standoff,reminiscent of 1745….or what ? 

[adb968008]

How are the £30k costs of cdl per coach calculated ?

 

This outdoor gate has had a magnetic doorlock on it for over a decade that I know of..

 

https://www.securitysafetyproducts.co.uk/security/security-access-control/extra-strong-weatherproof-maglock-for-gates-and-external-doors.php

 

Quote

Designed for use on large iron and wooden gates, as well as other external doors, this genuinely impressive maglock boasts a holding force of 1200lbs. It is for this reason we rate this as our single most secure external maglock.

It also has achieved an IP67 rating, meaning it is designed to withstand all the elements that the British weather can throw at it.

 

 

 

I know the rail industry is full of bloat, ego and waste, but is this a case of the industry exploiting itself, or can it look outside itself for solutions like this, which cost £71 inc vat per door, so £210 per carriage… plus a few LEDs,  a power source, emergency break glass and a wire to the brake coach ?

I reckon finding suitable industrial use equipment for this shopping list could be sourced for a fraction of the numbers suggested.

I know already its more complicated than that, and someone has to have their authority and you can only use suppliers who are mates of mates…. But even then it seems the real world has solutions the rail bubble doesnt… question is why cannot they be used ?

 

Whats the other £29,500 ?

 

Edited April 8 by adb968008

[david.hill64]

I expect the hardware costs of a CDL installation will be quite small. Preparing the paperwork, getting the approvals and staff training will add a lot. 

If you don't want to do something, inflating the costs is a good way of stopping it.

[adb968008]

5 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

I expect the hardware costs of a CDL installation will be quite small. Preparing the paperwork, getting the approvals and staff training will add a lot. 

If you don't want to do something, inflating the costs is a good way of stopping it.

Agreed, but wcrc has over 100 coaches, portioning the paperwork etc could divide the fixed costs quite considerably.

That would be an advantage to wcrc over everyone else with a dozen coaches.

 

thing if it is its really a fraction of what wcrc are quoting, it begs the question why fight it, its cheaper just to do it….

 

But equally why has so few others bothered to do it either, they might have exemptions and made promises to the ORR, but theyve still had 20 years to do it but keep pushing it out.

 

 

Edited April 8 by adb968008

[rodent279]

If integration and interlocking with braking systems is required, I'd imagine that would push costs northwards.

Plus of course the hardware is often the cheap part, the labour costs for installation and testing will be the bulk of the cost.

If you are WCRC, you might want to add in any potential revenue loss whilst all that is being done.

[Michael Hodgson]

15 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

And WCRC have returned The Jacobite Mk 1 stock to FW ,still without CDL,to FW. Seen on Leslie Gilpin’s YouTube channel northbound at Carlisle yesterday.Is this some kind of Highland standoff,reminiscent of 1745….or what ? 

I don' see them getting some bloke in Fort William do the job on the cheap in the sidings up there. 

It's just a stock move - doesn't really imply they will be using it in service without modification.

If WCRC management really think they are about to win the argument it would make sense. 

Perhaps they do believe the politicians will pull rank on the regulators with an election in the offing?

[adb968008]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I don' see them getting some bloke in Fort William do the job on the cheap in the sidings up there. 

It's just a stock move - doesn't really imply they will be using it in service without modification.

If WCRC management really think they are about to win the argument it would make sense. 

Perhaps they do believe the politicians will pull rank on the regulators with an election in the offing?

Or perhaps its a PR stunt, and driver training / refresher work.

They might have the coaches there but they are missing the headline act… the steam locos.

 

I did note in the consist two FKs… but they now seem to be FO conversions…which makes not fitting cdl during there refurbishment even more bizarre.

 

Edited April 8 by adb968008

[Michael Hodgson]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I did note in the consist two FKs… but they now seem to be FO conversions.

 

That's because the regulators told them to FO

[Jeremy Cumberland]

16 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

How are the £30k costs of cdl per coach calculated ?

 

This outdoor gate has had a magnetic doorlock on it for over a decade that I know of..

 

https://www.securitysafetyproducts.co.uk/security/security-access-control/extra-strong-weatherproof-maglock-for-gates-and-external-doors.php

 

 

 

I know the rail industry is full of bloat, ego and waste, but is this a case of the industry exploiting itself, or can it look outside itself for solutions like this, which cost £71 inc vat per door, so £210 per carriage… plus a few LEDs,  a power source, emergency break glass and a wire to the brake coach ?

I reckon finding suitable industrial use equipment for this shopping list could be sourced for a fraction of the numbers suggested.

I know already its more complicated than that, and someone has to have their authority and you can only use suppliers who are mates of mates…. But even then it seems the real world has solutions the rail bubble doesnt… question is why cannot they be used ?

 

Whats the other £29,500 ?

 

That's one door lock, not a central door locking system, with interlocks and emergency overrides.

 

Take a look at the Hastings Diesels page on fitting CDL to their stock, and you'll see some of what's involved: https://www.hastingsdiesels.co.uk/news/articles/2005a02/

 

Also, I am not sure if the Hastings system uses train air (other CDL systems do). As far as I am aware, the WCRC Mk1s are intended for vacuum brake operation, so there isn't any train air. This does not rule out CDL by any means, but it might mean that WCRC have to develop their own system rather than use someone else's.

 

Just now, adb968008 said:

Or perhaps its a PR stunt

I see it as a form of lobbying. Look, MPs, local businesses, people of Scotland, influencers, opinion formers and members of the press, we are all ready to run trains. You can't accuse us of not making an effort. The only thing stopping us is a bit of red tape.

[rodent279]

I think it's worth noting that not all (maybe the majority?) of those killed had opened a door whilst the train was moving, because they were either drunk, or just DAA* types. In some cases, deaths occurred because an open door struck a passenger on a platform, in some, a door lock was not working properly, and a door gave way when a passenger either leant on it, or was thrown against it when the train went over s&c work, and some just made a genuine mistake and got out on the wrong side.

So they weren't all idiots who deserved to be removed from the gene pool.

As an aside, whilst I'll admit in the past to doing my fair share of window leaning and opening doors whilst the train was arriving at a station, I can't say that not being able to do so spoiled my enjoyment of my day out on the Thumper.

 

*Daft As ***holes

[phil-b259]

14 hours ago, adb968008 said:

.

To go with a specific exemption for WHL only, at 25mph might be a harder one to argue against… as that with door bolts and stewards would be stronger than what heritage railways today offer, many with a greater service frequency than the WHL and the risks of volunteers vs professional staff.

 

But train paths at 25mph on the WHL are not available without totally decimating the Scotrail regular timetable!

 

So even if WCR put forward that as their justification for not installing CDL they still wouldn’t be able to rub the Jacobite as NR would not be able to provide any suitable train paths.

[phil-b259]

34 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

 

So they weren't all idiots who deserved to be removed from the gene pool.

 

 

 

Plus even ‘Idiots’ still usually have families and loved ones…

 

Scraping human remains / body parts off the track or trains is not a pleasant task - particularly as most of the time that is not what the folk doing it signed up for when they started their employment…..

 

Then there is the delay to other rail traffic while the incident is investigated etc….

[Oldddudders]

6 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Plus even ‘Idiots’ still usually have families and loved ones…

 

Scraping human remains / body parts off the track or trains is not a pleasant task - particularly as most of the time that is not what the folk doing it signed up for when they started their employment…..

 

Then there is the delay to other rail traffic while the incident is investigated etc….

Particularly if the coroner gets involved.

[Northmoor]

50 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

I think it's worth noting that not all (maybe the majority?) of those killed had opened a door whilst the train was moving, because they were either drunk, or just DAA* types. In some cases, deaths occurred because an open door struck a passenger on a platform, in some, a door lock was not working properly, and a door gave way when a passenger either leant on it, or was thrown against it when the train went over s&c work, and some just made a genuine mistake and got out on the wrong side.

So they weren't all idiots who deserved to be removed from the gene pool.

As an aside, whilst I'll admit in the past to doing my fair share of window leaning and opening doors whilst the train was arriving at a station, I can't say that not being able to do so spoiled my enjoyment of my day out on the Thumper.

 

*Daft As ***holes

That is exactly the attitude that BR took for a very long time, which made it Not Their Problem.  Finding that a victim had alcohol in their system because they'd had one post-work Friday evening drink, made that person to blame in BR's eyes.  It is like a child running out without warning into a busy 30mph limit road and being hit by a car doing 33mph; the onus immediately passes to the car driver.  It is not reasonable.

[rodent279]

I worded my post badly- I meant to say that possibly the majority of victims were not drunk, and didn't necessarily do something stupid.

[Oldddudders]

And of course the early '90s was when BR had an abrupt turnaround in attitudes to safety overall, stemming from the Hidden Report into the Clapham accident. Prior to that safety was assumed, the Rule Book having, as it is always put, been written in blood. Suddenly the sort of risk assessment techniques already mentioned became the way forward, not least in looking at how regular maintenance was conducted on the live railway. Little surprise that protecting passengers suddenly leapt up the agenda, too. 

[Northmoor]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

And of course the early '90s was when BR had an abrupt turnaround in attitudes to safety overall, stemming from the Hidden Report into the Clapham accident. Prior to that safety was assumed, the Rule Book having, as it is always put, been written in blood. Suddenly the sort of risk assessment techniques already mentioned became the way forward, not least in looking at how regular maintenance was conducted on the live railway. Little surprise that protecting passengers suddenly leapt up the agenda, too. 

Some may complain about 'Elf 'n' Safety but I consider the fact that in most years now, not only are no passengers killed but no-one dies working on the railway either, to be something worth applauding LOUDLY.

[rodent279]

13 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Some may complain about 'Elf 'n' Safety but I consider the fact that in most years now, not only are no passengers killed but no-one dies working on the railway either, to be something worth applauding LOUDLY.

This ^^^^^

👏👏👏