WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[Nick C]

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

On the subject of glass when did it (presumably!) all change to that type that breaks in to not very sharp granules rather than nasty shards? I'm assuming (always a danger) has been a requirement long before this current debate started.

Toughened glass has been around since the 1870s according to Wikipedia, and laminate since the 1900s. Longer than I thought! 

[Wheatley]

Certainly all the 14x/15x series DMUs and contemporary EMUs had toughened glass from new. 14xs were single glazed throughout, 15xs had double glazing in the main lights and single in the hoppers. Sometime around 1995 onwards the single glazed panes were fitted with anti-bandit film on the inside to prevent spalling and reduce the tendency for missiles to come through into the saloon rather than just stoving the window in. 

 

The change to mostly laminated glass with a couple of toughened 'break through' emergency windows came ( I think) after the Watford Junction derailment in 1996. 

[uax6]

Having had a toughened windscreen on my Minor shatter in the last couple of months, I can say that:

A) The rock made its way through the screen, as it bounced over the car (missing the bodywork;

B) The shattering was instant;

C) I was lucky that nothing went in my eyes;

D) That in the school car park it was a talking point, as people couldn't remember the last time they saw a shattered screen;

E) it was a cold drive home via back roads catching bits that fell out;

F) the shards were razor sharp;

G) National Windscreens can't fit a laminated screen into rubber any more.

 

Andy G

[Wheatley]

Toughened glass will still shatter, it's not bullet proof, but generally into cuboid lumps. They are still sharp but being small cubes rather than great long jaggy shards are less likely to sever an artery on the way past or impale you. You still wouldn't want in your eyes though.

 

If you hit a double glazed toughened window square on with something heavy enough hard enough it will go through. But they're reasonably good at withstanding glancing blows from ballast and even half bricks, the outer pane dissipates the force often leaving the inner pane either intact or shattered but still in place. 

 

After the anti-bandit film was fitted to the 14xs I can't remember any incidents where the film went completely through causing serious injury; it was like chucking a brick at a cricket net - it went in but not through. All the accident forms and injury claims for the largest 14x user went across my desk for about 15 years. It was more common to get missiles through the roof of a 150 than completely  through the window of a filmed 142. 

 

On laminated windows the norm seems to be to put sticky-backed plastic over the outside surface and leave it in service with the adjacent seats taped off. 

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, uax6 said:

Having had a toughened windscreen on my Minor shatter in the last couple of months, I can say that:

A) The rock made its way through the screen, as it bounced over the car (missing the bodywork;

B) The shattering was instant;

C) I was lucky that nothing went in my eyes;

D) That in the school car park it was a talking point, as people couldn't remember the last time they saw a shattered screen;

E) it was a cold drive home via back roads catching bits that fell out;

F) the shards were razor sharp;

G) National Windscreens can't fit a laminated screen into rubber any more.

 

Andy G

 

When my Dad lost a screen in his Traveller I remember the glass guy ended up with a few cuts from it. The replacement was like for like, so another toughened one went in.

 

Point G is interesting and concerning - my Saab has a laminated screen in rubber.

[rodent279]

3 hours ago, uax6 said:

Having had a toughened windscreen on my Minor shatter in the last couple of months, I can say that:

A) The rock made its way through the screen, as it bounced over the car (missing the bodywork;

B) The shattering was instant;

C) I was lucky that nothing went in my eyes;

D) That in the school car park it was a talking point, as people couldn't remember the last time they saw a shattered screen;

E) it was a cold drive home via back roads catching bits that fell out;

F) the shards were razor sharp;

G) National Windscreens can't fit a laminated screen into rubber any more.

 

Andy G

I replaced the screen in my Traveller with a laminated one over a decade ago. Managed to get it in the rubber myself, so rather surprised that the professionals can't do it.

[Morello Cherry]

On 12/05/2024 at 20:22, stewartingram said:

It may be history and not relevant nowadays, but...

After the Mk1 sleeper fire, when I believe passengers wer trapped behind lockedoors didn't the rules change tofforbid locking in?

So presumably it was ok before the fire?

 

There was another earlier accident - I believe during WW2 on the LNER involving a party of school children. There were I believe three carriages on a train which caught fire (due to children playing with matches if I remember correctly). One of issues looked at was that the corridor connections were locked by the guard meaning that the passengers could not escape the fire by fleeing to another carriage.

 

Edit it - found it Westborough - 1941

 

The rules at the time said that corridor connections should be locked on services without restaurant cars (see p.6 of the report). The reasons being to keep first and third class passengers separate and to prevent theft/pilfering. 

 

On the subject of locking people in, they've never stopped locking people in on the Ffestiniog and some carriages had bars on the windows to prevent you leaning out for the full prison coach experience.

 

 

Some EPBs had bars on the windows in the 1980s as well. I am little bit surprised tbh that they have not been reintroduced more widely to stop people hanging out of windows.

 

[Nick C]

9 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

Some EPBs had bars on the windows in the 1980s as well. I am little bit surprised tbh that they have not been reintroduced more widely to stop people hanging out of windows.

 

The VEPs had them in later years too for services on lines with restricted clearances (Hastings line post-tunnel-singling I presume, but I might be wrong...)

[Morello Cherry]

It does seem to be for lines with restricted clearance. The EPBs that were fitted were all working the North London line.

 

In those cases it is to keep the passengers in. In North America and India (among other places), they go for it to keep things out (birds, animals, bricks depending on the location).

 

[Matt37268]

10 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

 

 

 

Some EPBs had bars on the windows in the 1980s as well. I am little bit surprised tbh that they have not been reintroduced more widely to stop people hanging out of windows.

 

 

There still is, have a look at anything operated by Saphos, there’s a long diagonal metal bar from one corner of the droplight to the other. It also acts as a handrail for when alighting or boarding. 

Edited May 15 by Matt37268

[phil-b259]

11 minutes ago, Matt37268 said:

There still is, have a look at anything operated by Saphos, there’s a long diagonal metal bar from one corner of the droplight to the other. It also acts as a handrail for when alighting or boarding. 

The thing is if CDL is fitted then there is no obligation to have a steward hanging round the vestibules to discourage folk from sticking their heads out of the window.

 

It seems like to allay any fears the ORR may have about the reduction in safety this means Saphos have fitted a diagonal bar to mitigate this concern while still allowing the stoplight to be fully lowered and the external handle reached.

 

The alternative would be to fit interior door handles and restrict the wi Dow opening - but I guess that fitting the bar is an easier, quicker and cheaper option.

 

 

[MarkC]

17 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Point G is interesting and concerning - my Saab has a laminated screen in rubber.

Oh, this might be bad news - my wife's Saab convertible is her pride & joy - I wonder what the alternatives are if the original screen needs replacing?

 

Mark

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

It does seem to be for lines with restricted clearance. The EPBs that were fitted were all working the North London line.

 

Even in the 1970s, IIRC, the DMUs that ran between Carlisle & Workington had window bars on the doors.

 

Mark

[The Border Reiver]

7 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Even in the 1970s, IIRC, the DMUs that ran between Carlisle & Workington had window bars on the doors.

 

Mark

Because of the narrow width tunnels :)

[MarkC]

1 minute ago, The Border Reiver said:

Because of the narrow width tunnels :)

Um, yes - reduced clearances... 😎

 

Mark

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

There was another earlier accident - I believe during WW2 on the LNER involving a party of school children. There were I believe three carriages on a train which caught fire (due to children playing with matches if I remember correctly). One of issues looked at was that the corridor connections were locked by the guard meaning that the passengers could not escape the fire by fleeing to another carriage.

 

Edit it - found it Westborough - 1941

 

The rules at the time said that corridor connections should be locked on services without restaurant cars (see p.6 of the report). The reasons being to keep first and third class passengers separate and to prevent theft/pilfering. 

 

 

Actually  NOT in the Rule Book but a General Appendix Instruction although the Inspecting Officer, mistakenly, referred to it as a 'regulation'.  

 

The practice of locking intermediate doors between 1st & 3rd Class sections of a composite coach was discontinued in March 1942  so the Railways obviously took note of the Inspecting Officer's comment. (it might even have been dscontnued by letter before then but I can't trace if that was the case.

 

The locking of gangway doors between 1st and 3rd Class vehicles (other than Sleeping Cars) was discontinued in May 1950.   The gangway doors between 1st & 3rd Class Sleeping Cars were required to be locked only at stations from that date.

Edited May 15 by The Stationmaster

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

Oh, this might be bad news - my wife's Saab convertible is her pride & joy - I wonder what the alternatives are if the original screen needs replacing?

 

Mark

 

I believe all convertibles are bonded in as they provide additional strength. If it's a classic 900, the hard part may be finding a replacement screen if needed.

[Oldddudders]

4 hours ago, Nick C said:

The VEPs had them in later years too for services on lines with restricted clearances (Hastings line post-tunnel-singling I presume, but I might be wrong...)

It was East Grinstead Electrification that triggered it. HMRI insisted that the sub-standard clearances in Oxted Tunnel be addressed as part of the investment, and window-bars or restricted droplight-depth were the options they accepted instead of BR incurring massive costs in re-engineering the tunnel itself. Because Hastings Electrification used Keith Cattermole's proposal of singling through the tunnels, no such restrictions were necessary.

[Morello Cherry]

1 hour ago, Matt37268 said:

There still is, have a look at anything operated by Saphos, there’s a long diagonal metal bar from one corner of the droplight to the other. It also acts as a handrail for when alighting or boarding. 

 

Thanks. I hadn't seen that. It surprised me following the accident between Bristol and Bath and the accident on the 5 WES (although that was the Guard's window) that there was not more of a move from ORR to prevent people leaning out of the windows.

 

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Actually  NOT in the Rule Book but a General Appendix Instruction although the Inspecting Officer, mistakenly, referred to it as a 'regulation'.  

 

The practice of locking intermediate doors between 1st & 3rd Class sections of a composite coach was discontinued in March 1942  so the Railways obviously took note of the Inspecting Officer's comment. (it might even have been dscontnued by letter before then but I can't trace if that was the case.

 

The locking of gangway doors between 1st and 3rd Class vehicles (other than Sleeping Cars) was discontinued in May 1950.   The gangway doors between 1st & 3rd Class Sleeping Cars were required to be locked only at stations from that date.

 

FWIW they were still locking the corridors connections on some sleeper trains in Europe. This was certainly the case when I did Zagreb-Munich overnight around 2018/19 and was the case when I travelled from Budapest to Bucharest overnight around the same time. I am pretty sure that when I did Paris-Vienna c2007 the corridor connections were locked at night.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

 

I believe all convertibles are bonded in as they provide additional strength. If it's a classic 900, the hard part may be finding a replacement screen if needed.

One of the  TV car fixing programmes included a visit to a firm that can produce new windscreens for any car back to at least 1950, including adding heating elements to update the car if desired. Any such item will inevitably  be laminated. 

 

 In-rubber screens are fast becoming a thing of the past and National Windscreens may have made a business decision to reduce the amount of gear they need to lug around in their vans.

 

John

Edited May 15 by Dunsignalling

[uax6]

To be fair to National Windscreens, the particular branch that comes out to me, always seem to struggle to retain staff, so inevitably the fitter that turns up have never seen a rubber mounted screen before. Knowing this I had ordered a new rubber and insert myself just in case. The lad didn't want to use it (which was fine by me), but also didn't want to put any mastic in to seal it, so obviously it leaked like a sieve.

 

After a whinge, a fitter from another depot came out and fitted it properly in a quarter of the time,  and it doesn't leak. 

So they do have staff who can do it, but they tend to be the old staff, and not the youngsters, which again is a worry. I'm happy to have a go at most things on the minor, but its more or less free with the insurance so why would I do it myself?

 

Andy G

[MarkC]

3 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

I believe all convertibles are bonded in as they provide additional strength. If it's a classic 900, the hard part may be finding a replacement screen if needed.

It's a 2005 9-3 1.8t (Actually a 2-litre turbo, so why the 1.8t - nobody seems to know...), so hopefully spares are still about.

 

Mark

[stewartingram]

2 hours ago, uax6 said:

To be fair to National Windscreens, the particular branch that comes out to me, always seem to struggle to retain staff, so inevitably the fitter that turns up have never seen a rubber mounted screen before. Knowing this I had ordered a new rubber and insert myself just in case. The lad didn't want to use it (which was fine by me), but also didn't want to put any mastic in to seal it, so obviously it leaked like a sieve.

 

After a whinge, a fitter from another depot came out and fitted it properly in a quarter of the time,  and it doesn't leak. 

So they do have staff who can do it, but they tend to be the old staff, and not the youngsters, which again is a worry. I'm happy to have a go at most things on the minor, but its more or less free with the insurance so why would I do it myself?

 

Andy G

When I had my Austin A30 I always fitted replacement windscreens (s/h or new) in the rubber myself. Only tool needed was a ball of string!

[rodent279]

2 hours ago, uax6 said:

To be fair to National Windscreens, the particular branch that comes out to me, always seem to struggle to retain staff, so inevitably the fitter that turns up have never seen a rubber mounted screen before. Knowing this I had ordered a new rubber and insert myself just in case. The lad didn't want to use it (which was fine by me), but also didn't want to put any mastic in to seal it, so obviously it leaked like a sieve.

 

After a whinge, a fitter from another depot came out and fitted it properly in a quarter of the time,  and it doesn't leak. 

So they do have staff who can do it, but they tend to be the old staff, and not the youngsters, which again is a worry. I'm happy to have a go at most things on the minor, but its more or less free with the insurance so why would I do it myself?

 

Andy G

Fair point. I ended taking mine to Charlie Ware in Bristol, I'd got the screen in ok, but I'd struggled for 2 days to put the chrome trim in.

It took their guy about 3 min!

[Bucoops]

3 hours ago, MarkC said:

It's a 2005 9-3 1.8t (Actually a 2-litre turbo, so why the 1.8t - nobody seems to know...), so hopefully spares are still about.

 

Mark

 

That model should be fine.

 

I think I read that GM wanted to pitch the 9-3 at the same level as 1.8 BMWs etc - so they slightly de-tuned the standard 2l turbo map to produce a similar spec and tax rating etc.

 

You can get it remapped to get the power "back".