Shelf/micro layout help

[Ross74H]

So, I thought I would ask the brain trust here for help as I’m useless at designing track plans!

 

I want to build a little terminus type layout for my light railway but I’ve only got a space of about 3ft x 15-18” to do it in for 4mm scale, ideally I’d like to be able to use the Hornby J15 or Adams Radial on the layout but if they’re going to be too big I can use my two GER E18s as motive power.

 

Is anyone able to give me some help/advice with a design?

[AndyB]

Hi Ross.

I'm sure people will help out.

 

3' is a little on the short side, whereas the width is fine.

 

To help us out do you want to run a passenger train, a goods train...? 

 

Can you consider extending the layout when in use, for example a temporary "fiddle stick" attached to the end of the baseboard? 

[Barclay]

Hi you might want to look at Ruyton Road, a classic tiny light railway layout - I believe it is 42" long:

 

 

 

[brossard]

Maybe you should look at these Scalescenes kits:

 

https://scalescenes.com/product/ly02-canal-wharf-boxfile-layout/

 

https://scalescenes.com/product/ly01-industrial-boxfile-layout/

 

If they will go into a boxfile, they will fit your space.

 

John

[Ross74H]

55 minutes ago, AndyB said:

Hi Ross.

I'm sure people will help out.

 

3' is a little on the short side, whereas the width is fine.

 

To help us out do you want to run a passenger train, a goods train...? 

 

Can you consider extending the layout when in use, for example a temporary "fiddle stick" attached to the end of the baseboard? 

 Its meant to be a light railway so mostly mixed traffic with 4/6-wheel or small bogie coaches and smaller locomotives - I have a pair of GE E18 tanks and an Adams Radial as motive power.
 

Yes it’s going to have a little fiddle stick added to the end of it when I’m using it, the plan is to eventually have a couple of them so I can have one either side of the TV on the shelves 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Ross74H

[DavidB-AU]

15 hours ago, Ross74H said:

So, I thought I would ask the brain trust here for help as I’m useless at designing track plans!

 

Is anyone able to give me some help/advice with a design?

 

I'd recommend looking through the Small Layout Scrapbook by the late Carl Arendt. Lots of ideas that can be adapted.

 

https://www.carendt.com/category/small-layout-scrapbook/

[brossard]

I would think about passenger operations.  They take up a lot of real estate, what with platforms and run rounds.  Goods operations are more interesting anyway in my view.

 

John

[DavidB-AU]

15 minutes ago, brossard said:

I would think about passenger operations.  They take up a lot of real estate, what with platforms and run rounds.  Goods operations are more interesting anyway in my view.

 

Passenger operations don't need run arounds. Look at Ian Futers' Newcastle Haymarket, Victoria Park or Oldham King Street.

[sb67]

With that size I wouldn't try and get too much on the board, the J15 could be a bit too big. Ruyton Road is a fine example of a light railway, also Hepton Wharf is a small station with goods facilities. 

It uses a sector plate fiddle yard which completes the run round, saving quite a bit of space, I believe it was built in a weekend too! 

 

https://www.scalefour.org/layouts/exhibheptonwharf.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by sb67

[SZ]

23 hours ago, Ross74H said:

So, I thought I would ask the brain trust here for help as I’m useless at designing track plans!

 

I want to build a little terminus type layout for my light railway but I’ve only got a space of about 3ft x 15-18” to do it in for 4mm scale, ideally I’d like to be able to use the Hornby J15 or Adams Radial on the layout but if they’re going to be too big I can use my two GER E18s as motive power.

 

Is anyone able to give me some help/advice with a design?

 

Light railway track plans were as basic as it gets, you are most likely to get a light railway feel by subtracting from any track plan you might find.

[DCB]

That's N gauge space, TT120 at a pinch if you want standard gauge, in 00 a 0-6-0 tender loco is about 7 or 8 "   points likewise 7ish inches plus room to get the track back straight another 5" or so   so that's 2ft before you get clearance to pass two trains and we are talking squeezed down trimmed  track here , so to run round three wagons you need 3ft, plus the length of the loco, 3ft 8"   plus the removable head shunt fiddle plank.   If I were a politician I would say that is challenging but as a working class chappie I would say its 'king impossible.

Either a shunting plank with no run round or one of those half layouts where a traverser or cassette yard forms one end of the "station" looks to me like the best options .   If you want 4mm scale there are lots of hideously expensive RTR 009 locos on sale and a lot of absolute tat second hand if narrow gauge wuld suit.

[F-UnitMad]

3 hours ago, DCB said:

That's N gauge space, TT120 at a pinch

Nah, you can get standard gauge O Scale in 3ft or so...

 

"Lyddlow Goods", total length including fiddle stick 4ft 8in.

Ok it's very basic, but was designed for half-an-hour or so's relaxing shunting of a few wagons in the Senior Scale.

But a simple Light Railway in OO should easily accomplish more than that in a similar space. 😁👍

[Nearholmer]

You have room for a terminus, despite erroneous assertions to the contrary.

 

Have a look at Wingham Canterbury Road on the EKLR to discover that you need only one turnout and some gravity in order to run round a passenger train. http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/w/wingham_canterbury_road/

 

So, one turnout, two roads, one for goods, the other for a passenger platform, job done. 
 

I suspect Ruyton Road might have been inspired by the same location.

 

Of course, you’ll either have to motorise your passenger coach, or get very good with real gravity. The latter can be done, and has been before.

 

Or, you could build one of those “half a terminus” layouts like the famous Lanastr, where only half of the runaround is on view, but personally I’m not totally convinced about them. https://www.scalefour.org/layouts/exhibllanastr.html

 

This thread might help when it comes to minimal termini too 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Nearholmer

[009 micro modeller]

12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

You have room for a terminus, despite erroneous assertions to the contrary.

 

Have a look at Wingham Canterbury Road on the EKLR to discover that you need only one turnout and some gravity in order to run round a passenger train. http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/w/wingham_canterbury_road/

 

So, one turnout, two roads, one for goods, the other for a passenger platform, job done. 
 

I suspect Ruyton Road might have been inspired by the same location.

 

Of course, you’ll either have to motorise your passenger coach, or get very good with real gravity. The latter can be done, and has been before.

 

Or, you could build one of those “half a terminus” layouts like the famous Lanastr, where only half of the runaround is on view, but personally I’m not totally convinced about them. https://www.scalefour.org/layouts/exhibllanastr.html

 

This thread might help when it comes to minimal termini too 

 

I once did an 009 layout in a box file (plus ‘stick’), which for most passenger operations is a bit too small as there isn’t quite enough space for a run-round loop, so I used a shunt-release arrangement. I realise this is less prototypical in a lot of ways as this sort of light railway probably wouldn’t want to have two locos in operation just to facilitate something like this, but it might be an option for @Ross74H as an alternative to gravity working.

[Nearholmer]

With mechanisms being so relatively cheap and highly controllable these days, I think the motorised coach or van has a great deal going for it, even in 009, where one of those Japanese N-gauge tramcar mechanisms can do the job.

 

For someone who is a good kit builder, back-to-back Ford Model T railcars are a good option for the main passenger service. I was greatly impressed to see the replica one at the Colonel Stephen’s Museum a few weeks back. That place has come on many great strides since last I went there (about forty years ago, when it was a gallery in the town museum up the lane!). The combination of models and artefacts puts many a professionally run museum to shame, and it provides a seriously good primer in light railway thinking.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Ross74H]

Thanks guys, that’s given me some good ideas so far, the motorised coach might be worth investigating, maybe use a motor bogie from one of the newer DMU models but with different sideframes.

 

Im sticking to as few points as possible so no run-round is doable, I suppose I could even do a Ashover style station and say there’s a triangle off scene and the train turns round and backs into the station.

[Geep7]

I think with 3ft length, you'll struggle to get a run-round loop in without doing the "bitsa" half-run round loop style layout. I struggled, and I had 4 & 1/2 feet to play with. Might I suggest looking at something like Shell Island by Neil Rushby. There is a thread on here, but unfortunately has lost the photos, but a quick Google search will give you the track plan. It's fairly simple, just 2 points, arranged like a crossover, so you just get 2 sidings, one as a kickback.

 

Here's the link to the thread on here:

 

 

[AndyB]

Sector plate / turntable as in Bembridge? 

https://esngblog.com/2018/09/15/bembridge-isle-of-wight/

 

If you also upgraded your fiddle stick to a sector plate then you could have a bay platform with cattle pen, provender store or a goods shed.

[Nearholmer]

Less is more with light railways.

 

Anyway, Shell Island sounds too picturesque. This is where the EKLR might have expired if they’d carried on laying track along the route they’d bought and fenced. Great name for a terminus.

 

[009 micro modeller]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

With mechanisms being so relatively cheap and highly controllable these days, I think the motorised coach or van has a great deal going for it, even in 009, where one of those Japanese N-gauge tramcar mechanisms can do the job.

Would you not need DCC to facilitate this though?

[Nearholmer]

No, only a modicum of basic electrical sectioning.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

No, only a modicum of basic electrical sectioning.

OK, it just seems that at some stage the train loco and the motorised coach would be in the same section.

[Nearholmer]

They would. They key is to make sure that when you want them to do different things, one moving, the other standing still, they are in different sections. If you conceptualise of it is a double-headed train when loco and coach are moving together, and then detaching one of two locos from a double-headed train, maybe that will help.

 

 

Start with all sections energised.

 

Train arrives and comes to rest with loco in B, motorcoach in A.

 

Isolate A, move loco to D, isolate D.

 

Energise A, “gravitate” train to C, isolate C.

 

Energise D, loco shunts goods wagons and forms up new goods cut with brake at buffer stop end of cut in siding.

 

Loco buffers up to coach, energise C, loco and coach move together beyond the point, then into the entry to the siding, couple-up, and off to the FY again.

 

in 3ft overall, the sidings will be pretty short, so maybe only one or two wagons in a cut, and maybe tank-engines only, but it is just about do-able. The section break for C needs careful positioning too, right at the end of the platform.

 

In some ways, it might work better with the passenger portion formed of a motorised four-wheel full-brake coach and a 6W passenger coach, because the four-wheeler could the plausibly form part of a goods only train, as well as a mixed, allowing running round of that too, and it would look more interesting than a single bogie coach.
 

I think I’d put a “goods lock up” on the passenger platform, and have what little in the way of “smalls” this place handles travel in the 4W passenger brake along with any “railway parcels”, dogs, bicycles and perambulators, with minerals, livestock, and bulky agricultural crops being handled in the goods siding.

 

PS: I just measured a Terrier, 2x6W coaches + 3x 4W goods vehicles, and that comes out to about 685mm in 4mm/ft, so to do this in 914mm, and allow for the turnout and clearances, the train has to be even shorter, I think. Maybe 1x6W coach, plus only 3x goods vehicles, one being a ‘road van’ type brake?

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Nearholmer

[sb67]

9 hours ago, Ross74H said:

Thanks guys, that’s given me some good ideas so far, the motorised coach might be worth investigating, maybe use a motor bogie from one of the newer DMU models but with different sideframes.

 

Im sticking to as few points as possible so no run-round is doable, I suppose I could even do a Ashover style station and say there’s a triangle off scene and the train turns round and backs into the station.

 

There's always the Heljan Railbus, think that would be ok for a light railway. 

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

They would. They key is to make sure that when you want them to do different things, one moving, the other standing still, they are in different sections. If you conceptualise of it is a double-headed train when loco and coach are moving together, and then detaching one of two locos from a double-headed train, maybe that will help.

 

 

Start with all sections energised.

 

Train arrives and comes to rest with loco in B, motorcoach in A.

 

Isolate A, move loco to D, isolate D.

 

Energise A, “gravitate” train to C, isolate C.

 

Energise D, loco shunts goods wagons and forms up new goods cut with brake at buffer stop end of cut in siding.

 

Loco buffers up to coach, energise C, loco and coach move together beyond the point, then into the entry to the siding, couple-up, and off to the FY again.

 

in 3ft overall, the sidings will be pretty short, so maybe only one or two wagons in a cut, and maybe tank-engines only, but it is just about do-able. The section break for C needs careful positioning too, right at the end of the platform.

 

In some ways, it might work better with the passenger portion formed of a motorised four-wheel full-brake coach and a 6W passenger coach, because the four-wheeler could the plausibly form part of a goods only train, as well as a mixed, allowing running round of that too, and it would look more interesting than a single bogie coach.
 

I think I’d put a “goods lock up” on the passenger platform, and have what little in the way of “smalls” this place handles travel in the 4W passenger brake along with any “railway parcels”, dogs, bicycles and perambulators, with minerals, livestock, and bulky agricultural crops being handled in the goods siding.

 

PS: I just measured a Terrier, 2x6W coaches + 3x 4W goods vehicles, and that comes out to about 685mm in 4mm/ft, so to do this in 914mm, and allow for the turnout and clearances, the train has to be even shorter, I think. Maybe 1x6W coach, plus only 3x goods vehicles, one being a ‘road van’ type brake?

 

 

 

I thought it would essentially be electrically the same as a double headed train, I’m just wondering how easy it would be to match the speeds in practice. I like the diagram though and that explains it a lot better.

 

For a goods-only train, would you envisage the loco release being done the other way round, so that the loco goes into the platform road C? Would a goods train also require the brake van to change ends, potentially requiring more complicated isolating sections?

 

I have to agree though about the use of bogie coaches. I’ve found that in standard gauge 00 they are just too long for very small spaces and 4 wheel coaches (or wagons) are better, though this may be because I’m more familiar with what constitutes a reasonable length in 009 than 00. But to motorise 4-wheel coaches you might need to scratchbuild the motorised chassis to avoid the issue I had with the motorised wagons for my transporter project, which was the difficulty of finding motor bogies with the right wheelbase.

 

 I do also wonder about some sort of railbus type vehicle, maybe a bit like the Ford ones used by Colonel Stephens, with loco-hauled goods trains as well.

Edited July 26, 2023 by 009 micro modeller