A few historical questions about the Circle Line

[Cowley 47521]

Afternoon folks.

I’ve got a few historical questions for all you London Underground experts, not really modelling related but hopefully interesting nevertheless. This is related to a bit of research for someone I know that’s currently writing a fictional novel and part of it is set in 1941.

The questions here I would really appreciate a bit of advice on if possible:

1. Would it be feasible for two kids to hide under a bench seat in a tube train on the circle line in 1941?

I was looking at pictures of O and P stock which I believe worked the line in that era and was wondering whether the forward/back facing seat bases could be lifted off and if there was a void underneath them?

2. Was it called the circle line?

From what I can see the Metropolitan Railway and the District Railway ran the services before being amalgamated into LU in 1933 but the actual Circle Line title didn’t appear until 1949 when it also appeared in yellow on the tube map, is that about right?

3. Is it possible to access the old LU headquarters from St James Park tube station? For instance was there a direct former staff route from the platforms?

4. Would there have been something like a service lift up to street level at St. James park? Did any stations have things like that?

5. Was there a British museum station where museum artefacts were stored on the platform during the war or was that at Aldwych?

That’s it for now but any thoughts on the above would be very much appreciated!

Edited July 29, 2023 by Cowley 47521

[uax6]

I'm going to avoid answering the above questions and ask one of my own: Have you read 'Londons Secret Tubes' by Andy Emmerson and Tony Beard? It gives lots of lovely details that you would find very handy for your book!

Theres a few copies on ABEbooks for under a fiver... Well worth it!

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/londons-secret-tubes/author/andrew-emmerson/

 

Andy G

(who does know Andy E, he's Andy 1 and I'm Andy 2, there's an Andy 3, but he's not relevant here...)

[Metr0Land]

There were 2 tube maps issued in 1941.  No.1 had no print code and all lines were in brown/sepia so there was no key describing which line was which.  No2 had the print code 741.2780G.300M meaning it was (intended to be) issued in July 41 and all of the District, Circle and Metropolitan lines were in the same green colour.  The key had the legend Metropolitan and District Lines so the Circle wasn't differentiated on the map.  I've no idea if it was known colloquially as the Circle by then but suspect it was, as trains had long carried destination boards saying 'Inner Circle' etc.

 

There was only one map issued in 1947 and this was the last where there was no differentiation.  There was only one map in 1948 and was the only none of its kind.  District, Circle and Met lines were all green, but the Circle was oulined in black.  On the key Metropolitan and District lines were shown separately from the Circle which had its own entry of a green line outlined in black, whereas 'Metropolitan and District Lines were plain green.

 

There was only one map issued in 1949, and this was the first with all of District (green) Metropolitan (magenta) and Circle (yellow) having their own colours.

 

(I used to have all the maps from the final Stingmore to the 1st Garbutt and scanned them before I sold them a couple of years back.  If you want info from a particular map or a copy pls PM me)

[MossdaleNGauge]

3: I am probably better placed than most to answer this one. In about 2016 I was part of a group surveying the interface between the offices and the station in preparation for the offices of 55 Broadway being sold. Lots of walking around some very concealed and unused corners of the building and saw more of it than I had ever seen before. In the basement of the offices is the boiler room and there was a disused fire escape from it that led on to the very eastern end of the westbound platform beyond the place where passengers can access. There was no other connection between the two, apart from some cables passing through a room.

Edited July 29, 2023 by MossdaleNGauge

[Nearholmer]

“Inner Circle” (because there were outer ones too), then “Circle” was shown as a route on posters, things like “next train” indicators, and on the fronts, sides, and I think backs, of trains themselves from the time it was completed.

 

But, it wasn’t a separate brand, the brands were Districtcand Metropolitan. I’ve not seen any way-finding signage on stations for it until probably post-WW2, and even then most way-finding signage still indicated the path to follow to get to key stations, far from always mentioning “lines”. The separate branding of the circle seems to have crept in by stages through the 1930s and 40s, for instance this, which I think is a car card, from a car vestibule (I recall a later version of this on old stock in the 1960s). 

Until the branding was established, ‘Circle’ was a route/destination, like ‘Richmond’ or ‘Neasden’, so I imagine people would say “I’m waiting for a circle train.”, whereas now they’d say “I’m waiting for a circle line train”.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Cowley 47521]

7 hours ago, uax6 said:

I'm going to avoid answering the above questions and ask one of my own: Have you read 'Londons Secret Tubes' by Andy Emmerson and Tony Beard? It gives lots of lovely details that you would find very handy for your book!

Theres a few copies on ABEbooks for under a fiver... Well worth it!

 

No I haven’t read that but at that price it’s got be worth a look I reckon. 👍

 

7 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

There were 2 tube maps issued in 1941.  No.1 had no print code and all lines were in brown/sepia so there was no key describing which line was which.  No2 had the print code 741.2780G.300M meaning it was (intended to be) issued in July 41 and all of the District, Circle and Metropolitan lines were in the same green colour.  The key had the legend Metropolitan and District Lines so the Circle wasn't differentiated on the map.  I've no idea if it was known colloquially as the Circle by then but suspect it was, as trains had long carried destination boards saying 'Inner Circle' etc.

 

There was only one map issued in 1947 and this was the last where there was no differentiation.  There was only one map in 1948 and was the only none of its kind.  District, Circle and Met lines were all green, but the Circle was oulined in black.  On the key Metropolitan and District lines were shown separately from the Circle which had its own entry of a green line outlined in black, whereas 'Metropolitan and District Lines were plain green.

 

There was only one map issued in 1949, and this was the first with all of District (green) Metropolitan (magenta) and Circle (yellow) having their own colours.

 

(I used to have all the maps from the final Stingmore to the 1st Garbutt and scanned them before I sold them a couple of years back.  If you want info from a particular map or a copy pls PM me)

That’s really interesting and I appreciate the kind offer as well, thanks for that. 

[Cowley 47521]

7 hours ago, MossdaleNGauge said:

3: I am probably better placed than most to answer this one. In about 2016 I was part of a group surveying the interface between the offices and the station in preparation for the offices of 55 Broadway being sold. Lots of walking around some very concealed and unused corners of the building and saw more of it than I had ever seen before. In the basement of the offices is the boiler room and there was a disused fire escape from it that led on to the very eastern end of the westbound platform beyond the place where passengers can access. There was no other connection between the two, apart from some cables passing through a room.

Absolutely fascinating and very much the kind of information I was hoping for when I started the thread, thank you.

 

 

[Cowley 47521]

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

“Inner Circle” (because there were outer ones too), then “Circle” was shown as a route on posters, things like “next train” indicators, and on the fronts, sides, and I think backs, of trains themselves from the time it was completed.

 

But, it wasn’t a separate brand, the brands were District and Metropolitan. I’ve not seen any way-finding signage on stations for it until probably post-WW2, and even then most way-finding signage still indicated the path to follow to get to key stations, far from always mentioning “lines”.
The separate branding of the circle seems to have crept in by stages through the 1930s and 40s, for instance this, which I think is a car card, from a car vestibule (I recall a later version of this on old stock in the 1960s). 

Until the branding was established, ‘Circle’ was a route/destination, like ‘Richmond’ or ‘Neasden’, so I imagine people would say “I’m waiting for a circle train.”, whereas now they’d say “I’m waiting for a circle line train”.

 

 

Wonderful stuff @Nearholmer . That’s filled a lot of gaps in my knowledge in and the 1908 map is fascinating.

 

I’m assuming that the stock shown in the last photo would have been running on the line during 1941 rather than the O and P stock that I was thinking of? Any idea what it was called though?

 

Nick

Edited July 29, 2023 by Cowley 47521

[Jeremy Cumberland]

52 minutes ago, Cowley 47521 said:

I’m assuming that the stock shown in the last photo would have been running on the line during 1941 rather than the O and P stock that I was thinking of? Any idea what it was called though?

It was callled "Circle Stock", and was formed in 1934 from refurbished 1913 Stock and 1921 Stock cars (it is a 1913 Stock car in the photograph). The trains were originally painted red and cream, as shown, but were fairly soon changed to all red. They survived until the late 40s, when they were replaced with P stock, so this type of train would be right for your era. They were 5 cars long, rather shorter than the District, Metropolitan and Hammersmith and City trains that also ran on the same lines (although shorter District and Metropolitan trains were sometimes run off-peak).

 

I have a faint recollection of "Circle Line" being used before the Second World War (from mention in a book written then, not because I am that old), but I'm sure I'll never find the reference, and you'd do better to stick with "Circle train", as Nearholmer suggests.

 

Your era would have seen O stock on the Hammersmith and City, C, D, E, F and Q stock on the District, and P and T stock on the Metropolitan, together with loco-hauled Dreadnoughts.

[Cowley 47521]

Just now, Jeremy Cumberland said:

It was callled "Circle Stock", and was formed in 1934 from refurbished 1913 Stock and 1921 Stock cars (it is a 1913 Stock car in the photograph). The trains were originally painted red and cream, as shown, but were fairly soon changed to all red. They survived until the late 40s, when they were replaced with P stock, so this type of train would be right for your era. They were 5 cars long, rather shorter than the District, Metropolitan and Hammersmith and City trains that also ran on the same lines (although shorter District and Metropolitan trains were sometimes run off-peak).

 

I have a faint recollection of "Circle Line" being used before the Second World War (from mention in a book written then, not because I am that old), but I'm sure I'll never find the reference, and you'd do better to stick with "Circle train", as Nearholmer suggests.

 

Your era would have seen O stock on the Hammersmith and City, C, D, E, F and Q stock on the District, and P and T stock on the Metropolitan, together with loco-hauled Dreadnoughts.

That’s perfect thanks for that. I’ll try and dig up a bit of information on that stock later. Very interesting.

[Engineer]

Returning to the original questions and subsequent information provided:

Although it was a very long time ago ago and faculties are declining, I remember departing Broadway at a late hour and for some reason the usual route to the booking hall was unavailable.  The House Foreman kindly allowed me out to the platform via the basement.  It must have been after the 55 Broadway boilers had been elevated to the 12th Floor.  The access passage led from the rear of the basement landing for the main lifts.  Decoration in the area was white ceramic wall tiles and floor was quarry tiles.  Having navigated the passages, there was a flight of steps, maybe 8-10 steps down, to a room whose doors opened to the platform as described earlier.
'
St James's Park station still sits in an awkward-shaped site and another segment contained a much earlier office building, 'Electric Railway House', headquarters for the Underground Group before the arrival of 55 Broadway.  This building had its facade on Petty France and its footprint was directly behind the eastern half of the Eastbound/Inner Rail platform.  There was a basement, with a boiler room and all the other typical features, and included access from the Eastbound platform.  Both platforms at SJP have two sets of stairs at the Broadway/Abbey/Westminster end and the ERH basement access led from the access arch for the smaller set of stairs, part way along the platform.  Again, there was a doorway and half a dozen steps up to basement floor level.  I'd guess this access was closed off by station refurbishment maybe in the 1960s.  By the early 1970s Electric Railway House was gutted back to its main steelwork with the loss of its oak-panelled board rooms, then re-constructed in a contemporary style.  

There weren't any Broadway lifts with a landing at platform level but the main and goods lifts called at basement level in these buildings.  Those familiar with the complex interconnections of these and other LT and rented buildings on the Broadway site will now have worked out how it might have been possible in the past to get from Westbound to Eastbound without using any public areas.  I can't say whether these access routes were used routinely by office staff to and from their desks, and my guess on balance is probably not - but it could have happened at times in history.  If the staff access was in operation there would have been a member of staff at those platform doorways for the start (and middle) and end of the business day (these used to be well-defined spells), and doors would have been locked at other times.  I do know that, apart from the main entrances to each office building, there had been an access from the old SJP booking hall into Electric Railway House before the arrival of 55 Broadway.  This staff privilege may have been preserved with the new building which was joined to ERH at each floor (though the levels didn't quite match).

 

There used to be many other instances of office access from stations.  In the context of the question, Baker Street platforms 1/2 have some interesting hidden history (that's not including the nearby Chiltern Court siding), and there was access by stair to the offices above, again long closed but the structure down to the platform is still there.  This entry was supervised at office start/finish times.  The Building Department offices at Chalk Farm used to have an 'alternative' access via the station lift, its staff were able to use it if the need arose. From the war years until relatively modern times there were offices in several large wooden huts behind the Up platform at Hillingdon (Swakeleys) with stairs down from the platform.  Station re-siting and re-building swept everything away except one surviving hut which (I think) is now in Highways ownership and on their land.

 

For the stock, my recommended best source book is the Underground Train File - Surface Stock by Brian Hardy.  It is concise, reliable, thorough and it has few flaws.  Can't lay my hands on my copy at the moment, though, but I have notes and some recalled facts:  
The Circle Stock fleet also included a few 1905-7 clerestory-roof cars though was dominated by 1921 Saloon Stock cars.  (1905-7 cars:   Former 1DT 6542, 6536, 6537, 6538; 3M 2589 substitute 1941 after Charing Cross incident)
The stock had hand-worked doors at the time in question, and it wouldn't be unusual for trains to run with some or all doors open, depending on conditions and travellers' preferences.  
Before the mid-1930s renovation, the car interiors were, broadly, varnished teak with white ceilings.  I've no documentary evidence to hand but I believe that the renovated interiors were painted the standard LT colours of 'Portland Stone' above waist and 'Cerulean Blue' below waist.
    

Both the box seats (transverse 'fours') and the longitudinal seats were supported from the gangway/floor by legs, with open space underneath.  The renovation included enclosing beneath the transverse seats, but from photographs it seems as if the space to hide beneath longitudinal seats remained.  

Edited August 2, 2023 by Engineer
Clarifications and format

[Nearholmer]

Here’s a bit of wartime London, viewed from the ground up, as contextual reading:

 

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015057149414&seq=7

 

Its actually quite an interesting book, given when it was published, much more frank than might be expected, and “the Circle” (no “line”) does get a very brief mention.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Ray H]

I can't swear to it after so many years but I'm 99.9% sure that it was easy to get between the eastbound platform - about a car's length back from the main stairway - and the complex above as it was something that was used when arriving/leaving work. I don't recall any supervision/overseeing of that exit but as it only lead into offices rather than to the street, I doubt too many members of the public tried to exit that way. Security then was a lot, lot more lax the than even a few years later.

 

I started work at SJP in 1967 and would have arrived westbound and departed eastbound at least until the Victoria line was opened to Victoria whereupon I went home via Victoria with a change at Oxford Circus because I could get a seat from there rather than trust my luck at Mile End.

 

I think but am nowhere near as certain that there was an exit in a similar place off the westbound platform, again into the complex.

 

Another structure that disappeared around the same time as Electric Railway House was York Mansion(s), all swept away to be replaced with more modern office because (as I understood it) the then deputy (?) Chairman decided that LTE didn't need all the office space and could gain from renting (the replacement buildings) out, which is what it did.

 

There was still an internal connection between the old and new on several floors and, in due course, the tenant of a large part of the replacement building was - you've guessed it - LTE (or whatever they were called by then).

 

Another building and part of the complex was Wing-Over-Station. This escaped the rebuild and, to the best of my knowledge, still exists today. At one time it was the home for the bus scheduling team and the Publicity department.

[Nearholmer]

“Pensions” lived in Wing Over Station until a few years back, although no longer. I think they’ve had the misfortune to move to 200 Buckingham Palace Road, which was always freezing cold in winter and had perennially blocked toilets  to my memory.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Nick Gough]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Museum_tube_station

 

Also featured in last week's episode of 'Secrets of the London Underground ' - Yesterday channel.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

12 hours ago, Engineer said:

The Circle Stock fleet also included a few 1905-7 clerestory-roof cars

I thought it was Just the one in LPTB days, roped in as a replacement for one of the elliptical roof cars that got damaged, and that the 1934 refurbishment got rid of the handful of 1905 trailers that had been part of the Circle sets. However, I freely admit I find the history of early Metropolitan and District stock very confusing.

 

On 29/07/2023 at 12:43, Cowley 47521 said:

1. Would it be feasible for two kids to hide under a bench seat in a tube train on the circle line in 1941?

I was looking at pictures of O and P stock which I believe worked the line in that era and was wondering whether the forward/back facing seat bases could be lifted off and if there was a void underneath them?

I don't think this has been answered. With O and P Stock, I don't think this would have been possible. Here's an excellent photograph of a Q38 stock seat, which is essentially the same as the O and P Stock (photo source: https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/2001-12050):

 

I used to know what the star meant, but it will be for some switch or valve (the brake isolation valve, perhaps), and it looks like it is accessed through that small panel on the end. On other trains, cushions lift off to access valves and switches, although as I recall cushions were locked in position, to prevent unauthorised access.

 

As far as I can tell from photographs, transverse seats on 1913/1921 Stock as used on Circle Stock during the Second World War had ordinary enclosed wooden bases the same size as the seat cushions, and the cushions probably did just lift off. It's hard to imagine a child hiding there though, and at least some of the seats would have had switches and valves hidden underneath them.

 

I've not managed found any drawings showing interior layouts, and I've not tried to work out all the combinations from photographs, but 1913 Stock trailers had 3-in a row longitudinal seats, which appear to be open underneath (they had no front panel). It looks like a child could quite easily hide under one of these, although perhaps not be very well hidden. There is a good photograph in Metropolitan Railway Rolling Stock by James R Snowdon, but I have not found anything online.

[Cowley 47521]

4 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I thought it was Just the one in LPTB days, roped in as a replacement for one of the elliptical roof cars that got damaged, and that the 1934 refurbishment got rid of the handful of 1905 trailers that had been part of the Circle sets. However, I freely admit I find the history of early Metropolitan and District stock very confusing.

 

I don't think this has been answered. With O and P Stock, I don't think this would have been possible. Here's an excellent photograph of a Q38 stock seat, which is essentially the same as the O and P Stock (photo source: https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/2001-12050):

 

I used to know what the star meant, but it will be for some switch or valve (the brake isolation valve, perhaps), and it looks like it is accessed through that small panel on the end. On other trains, cushions lift off to access valves and switches, although as I recall cushions were locked in position, to prevent unauthorised access.

 

As far as I can tell from photographs, transverse seats on 1913/1921 Stock as used on Circle Stock during the Second World War had ordinary enclosed wooden bases the same size as the seat cushions, and the cushions probably did just lift off. It's hard to imagine a child hiding there though, and at least some of the seats would have had switches and valves hidden underneath them.

 

I've not managed found any drawings showing interior layouts, and I've not tried to work out all the combinations from photographs, but 1913 Stock trailers had 3-in a row longitudinal seats, which appear to be open underneath (they had no front panel). It looks like a child could quite easily hide under one of these, although perhaps not be very well hidden. There is a good photograph in Metropolitan Railway Rolling Stock by James R Snowdon, but I have not found anything online.

Thanks for the information there Jeremy. Those interiors look beautiful.

[Ray H]

We mustn't lose sight of the fact that in the last 40 or so years, what was previously openable, removable and the like, quickly got locks, marks and other things to show if they'd been tampered with once security was upgraded from hardly any to virtually all.

 

Thus what was probably possible as late as the 1970s, very quickly became all but or actually impossible soon after.

[Siberian Snooper]

17 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I thought it was Just the one in LPTB days, roped in as a replacement for one of the elliptical roof cars that got damaged, and that the 1934 refurbishment got rid of the handful of 1905 trailers that had been part of the Circle sets. However, I freely admit I find the history of early Metropolitan and District stock very confusing.

 

I don't think this has been answered. With O and P Stock, I don't think this would have been possible. Here's an excellent photograph of a Q38 stock seat, which is essentially the same as the O and P Stock (photo source: https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/2001-12050):

 

I used to know what the star meant, but it will be for some switch or valve (the brake isolation valve, perhaps), and it looks like it is accessed through that small panel on the end. On other trains, cushions lift off to access valves and switches, although as I recall cushions were locked in position, to prevent unauthorised access.

 

 

 

 

If the star is the same as BR, etc. It's where the string is to open the valve to destroy the vacuum, and or air pressure in the brake system.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Siberian Snooper

[PeterStiles]

Well, I, for one, can't wait to read the book when it's finished.

[Lord of Narnia]

There were 4 1905 driving trailers (originally for their first class but discontinued in 1941) which were not used as such and had their driving controls removed on refurbishment. 
 

The 1906 driving motor car was a late call up as said due to damage during the war.

 

Regarding the space below the seats I would not have thought that there would be any space below as the new O/P/Q38 stock was designed to be easy to clean and maintain. 

[bécasse]

While I don't remember hand-worked door stock on the Circle (although I do remember "PUSH TO OPEN" buttons, removed in the 1950s?), I did travel on the East London when it was still worked by C stock and can confirm that it was commonplace for trains to run with some doors open. I imagine that if there were any standing passengers in a particular vestibule, they would have closed the doors as it would have been disconcerting to pass through the tunnels with adjacent doors open.

 

I also checked my copy of J.F.Thomas's "Handling London's Underground Traffic" published in 1928 (so pre-LPTB) and he makes reference to "known as the Inner Circle". However, a page reproduced from the District Railway WB WTT merely shows the timings of Inner Circle trains with the heading "Met." as operator of the trains concerned. As an aside, the WTT also shows trains from Earls Court to Addison Road with the heading "LMS" and the side note "to Willesden Junction".

[Nearholmer]

The Earl’s Court to Willesden Junction shuttles were the last remnant of the NLR/LNWR Outer Circle service from Broad Street to Mansion House, and I think they were operated using an auto fitted Coal Tank sandwiched between two car sets, each a trailer and a driving trailer, either side. The service was cut back from Mansion House a few years after electrification because changing locos at EC was too time consuming, then cut off at the other end when the NLL was electrified.

 

I was mildly alarmed by the way trains ran with the doors open in the South of France. The stopping train service used stock that was ex Paris suburban, and had some strange door mechanism, whereby the sliding doors were shut automatically, but by turning a sort of door knob, passengers could open them once underway, which they did, riding sitting on the floor with their legs dangling outside. On a hot evening, I could sort of see why, with a nice breeze and a fantastic view out over the Med.

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Nearholmer

[roythebus1]

SJP is a sub-surface station so there's no escalators from the platforms to street level. 

 

On the later O/P/Q stock it was not possible, as others have said, to lift the seats. Uner them was a plethora of isolating cocks, the flap with the star hid the brake release valve (the star is still used on main line trains), and "heaters". Lots of things tht worked on 650 volts that you really wanted to go near.

 

If the Circle train was a District train, the F stock with the flat front and clerestory roof, later to become Q23, had a separate guard's compartment that kids could hide in. This was accessible from the passenger saloon and was shut off when occupied by the guard by putting a bar across the gap that had GUARD ONLY on it. I know what they were like, I worked on them as a guard in 1970 and 1971 when they were withdrawn. The lights would go dim when the train started and would go out when the train went over gaps in the current rails.

[St Enodoc]

On 30/07/2023 at 19:16, Ray H said:

At one time it was the home for the bus scheduling team

That must have been where the late Norman Eagles of Sherwood Section fame worked.