Pacers on preserved lines

[nathan70000]

On Thursday I visited the East Lancashire Railway to have a ride behind 34072. In stark contrast, the other service train was operated by the recently retired 144009.

 

Today I visited the KWVR and lo and behold, another Pacer- 144011, admittedly smartly turned out in Metro Train red and cream.

 

Whilst I understand these units are probably easier to operate and cheaper to run than even a 1st generation DMU, I have to question the wisdom of running them at the height of summer.

 

Much has been said about how heritage railways can boost their appeal to the general public, but how is the average family going to react when they pull up to the station and are presented with a shabby 1980's DMU with a modern interior and precious little heritage appeal? I wouldn't blame them if they turned around and went home. Heritage railways proudly proclaim to recreate the atmosphere of a bygone era, but I'm not sure 2019 is the bygone era Harry Potter-and-Thomas obsessed families have in mind when they choose a day out!

 

At the KWVR the public was clearly voting with their feet as 144011 appeared to be hauling fresh air around for much of the day. I'm afraid relying on Pacers to offer heritage railways "on the cheap" is likely to backfire if people are put off from travelling. It could even generate hostile media coverage if a family feels ripped off.

 

I mean no offense to the team at KWVR who have clearly put a lot of work in to 144011. I just think it would be better utilised in the off season and during enthusiasts events when it will actually be appreciated- discuss?

 

 

[phil-b259]

2 minutes ago, nathan70000 said:

On Thursday I visited the East Lancashire Railway to have a ride behind 34072. In stark contrast, the other service train was operated by the recently retired 144009.

 

Today I visited the KWVR and lo and behold, another Pacer- 144011, admittedly smartly turned out in Metro Train red and cream.

 

Whilst I understand these units are probably easier to operate and cheaper to run than even a 1st generation DMU, I have to question the wisdom of running them at the height of summer.

 

Much has been said about how heritage railways can boost their appeal to the general public, but how is the average family going to react when they pull up to the station and are presented with a shabby 1980's DMU with a modern interior and precious little heritage appeal? I wouldn't blame them if they turned around and went home. Heritage railways proudly proclaim to recreate the atmosphere of a bygone era, but I'm not sure 2019 is the bygone era Harry Potter-and-Thomas obsessed families have in mind when they choose a day out!

 

At the KWVR the public was clearly voting with their feet as 144011 appeared to be hauling fresh air around for much of the day. I'm afraid relying on Pacers to offer heritage railways "on the cheap" is likely to backfire if people are put off from travelling. It could even generate hostile media coverage if a family feels ripped off.

 

I mean no offense to the team at KWVR who have clearly put a lot of work in to 144011. I just think it would be better utilised in the off season and during enthusiasts events when it will actually be appreciated- discuss?

 

 

 

Part of the problem may be the KWVRs reputation.

 

Given it was a early starter in Preservation terms and thus has mainly been steam operated for around 4 decades many people will 'expect' it to be fielding steam locos and not recently retired pacers.

 

The East Lancs may be a bit younger but once again they are known for having a large number of steam locos so again visitor perceptions may well expect steam haulage (or 1960s diesels) and not a Pacer.

 

By contrast somewhere like the Mid Norfolk railway which only got going after rail privatisation and as such doesn't have a resident steam fleet is unlikely to cause the same level of 'expectation' in its visitors - and as such people may well be more inclined to travel on a Pacer when they visit.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, nathan70000 said:

Whilst I understand these units are probably easier to operate and cheaper to run than even a 1st generation DMU, I have to question the wisdom of running them at the height of summer.

 

Much has been said about how heritage railways can boost their appeal to the general public, but how is the average family going to react when they pull up to the station and are presented with a shabby 1980's DMU with a modern interior and precious little heritage appeal? I wouldn't blame them if they turned around and went home. Heritage railways proudly proclaim to recreate the atmosphere of a bygone era, but I'm not sure 2019 is the bygone era Harry Potter-and-Thomas obsessed families have in mind when they choose a day out!

Firstly, I think the Pacers are part of railway history and so a few should be preserved. Also in a lot of ways the work they will be doing on heritage railways (low-speed, branch line etc.) is probably more similar to what they were originally designed for, rather than the heavier suburban work they ended up doing more recently.

 

However, from a publicity/visitor experience point of view, it does seem a bit unfortunate on the two railways you mention, located in, respectively, the Manchester and Leeds commuter belts (i.e. areas where only very recently there were a lot of people fed up with Pacers on the national railway, and calling for their withdrawal and replacement). In a few years time the situation might be a bit different in that respect though.

 

1 hour ago, nathan70000 said:

At the KWVR the public was clearly voting with their feet as 144011 appeared to be hauling fresh air around for much of the day.

If that’s the case then I wonder how effective it is, as it sounds like it’s providing only a little bit of extra capacity but then that capacity is not really being used.

 

Of course there is a (well-worn, almost clichéd) argument that ‘the general public only want steam’ and therefore won’t go on any DMU, even an old one, but I think we might have got to the stage now where a first generation DMU, Thumper etc. is sufficiently different from the modern trains people use everyday to be interesting, even if it isn’t steam.

[phil-b259]

16 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Of course there is a (well-worn, almost clichéd) argument that ‘the general public only want steam’ and therefore won’t go on any DMU, even an old one, but I think we might have got to the stage now where a first generation DMU, Thumper etc. is sufficiently different from the modern trains people use everyday to be interesting, even if it isn’t steam.

 

Indeed - things like slam doors  a lack of air con / PID displays etc mean that older DMUs / DEMUs are sufficiently 'old fashioned' and different from 'modern' trains that the general public are more tolerant of riding on them for pleasure than they used to be.

 

Perhaps thats the way people need to go with Pacers - strip out all the stuff that has been added in refurbishments over the years and return them to their original condition...

[CWJ]

My thoughts, for what they're worth...

 

Pros:

For many families, just having a train ride is a novel and enjoyable experience. I've heard countless parents say that this is little Johnny's first ever train ride, and it turns out little Johnny is about 12 years old. Pacers have nice big windows with narrow pillars between which make them good for sightseeing. Despite what some enthusiasts may think, Pacers are not in any way 'modern' just because they don't boil water. Most trains on the main line network have bright LED lighting, air conditioning, no opening windows, digital information screens, CCTV cameras everywhere, accessible toilets, smooth air suspension, silent disc brakes, etc... A Pacer by comparison has more in common with a 1st-generation DMU! The Pacer you ride today may be much older than the 1st-gen DMU, or even some steam engines, you happily rode earlier in the preservation era. People of parenting age remember Pacers so they may feel a connection with them (as passengers or volunteers), in a way that many of us don't feel familiar with steam engines built 60 years before we were born.

 

Cons:

Most families visiting a heritage railway would want the novelty of a steam train (and this is probably the most important point of all). A Pacer even in original 1980s condition will clash with the steam-era ambience most heritage stations try to emulate (the KWVR being a particularly good example even though 144011's red and cream livery is not unpleasant). The majority of enthusiasts seem to prefer BR transition-era traction (although that will gradually change - when ai was young, older chaps were interested in the Big 4 because they could still remember them). 

 

In summary, I'd agree that Pacers may be better-suited to the low season or enthusiast events, but we should also remember that railways might not have the luxury of other stock on the day which is defect-free, ready to go and has a traction-competent crew.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

 

(Serving railwayman, heritage railway veteran and life-long Pacer sufferer/secret admirer)

Edited August 24, 2023 by CWJ
I had put some pros in my cons by accident. Corrected.

[Bucoops]

I had the misfortune to travel on one once. It was supposed to be a 15x but was substituted. Amusingly I was with a fairly senior Regional Railways manager at the time and when he saw what was coming and heard the groans from the punters, he removed his tie and hid his badge 😆

 

Personally, I would actively avoid riding one but if it works for the preserved railways and brings in money, then great.

[Reorte]

I wouldn't want to ride on one now for a trip out. I've used them from time to time (not too often, but enough). With enough time they might roll around to ticking the nostalgia box, but I suspect it'll need at least twenty or so years. Right now they're just the bottom end of everyday. But what to do with them in the meantime? Rip the interior out for some sort of novelty train is all that springs to mind.

[VIA185]

I suspect most railways are savvy enough to recognise pretty quickly IF the Pacers are turning potential passengers off. To me, the big difference between a first generation DMU and a Pacer is that the DMU generally has a view forward through the cab. So, if they expected steam but they get a drivers eye view, they'll be happy. If they expected either of those two and they get a Pacer, they won't be happy. I thought it was a disaster when the 'FREE' Pacer offer tempted so many preserved lines to accept a train which makes them all look the same but I can understand why a free train would be too good to miss. Personally I wouldn't cross the street to ride a Pacer. My last two journeys on them involved Exmouth-Barnstaple on a 143 that I christened Evil Edna - it was fresh out of works, refurbished, and making the most appalling ear-splitting noises when it accelerated, and a run over the S&C to Carnforth in a 142 which ended with a small child throwing up on my feet! Not a fan of Pacers I'm afraid...... but give me a 153 any day! (CJL)

Edited August 24, 2023 by VIA185

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Indeed - things like slam doors  a lack of air con / PID displays etc mean that older DMUs / DEMUs are sufficiently 'old fashioned' and different from 'modern' trains that the general public are more tolerant of riding on them for pleasure than they used to be.

 

Perhaps thats the way people need to go with Pacers - strip out all the stuff that has been added in refurbishments over the years and return them to their original condition...

Exactly - vintage bus enthusiasts preserve the buses on which Pacers are based, and run them for the public to ride on, after all. Even some Mark 1s as seen on preserved railways have 1980s upholstery/interiors that are very similar to those on modern stock.

 

It probably sounds like a bad example because the line itself has since closed and become a National Rail line again but I remember visiting Dartmoor Railway several years ago. The restoration of Okehampton station was superbly done (and in fact that part can still be enjoyed now, regardless of the line’s new role), and the SR DEMU fitted nicely with that even though there wasn’t any steam traction involved in the whole setup.

 

But anyway, are we discussing whether heritage railway visitors will want to ride on anything perceived as ‘more modern’, or Pacers specifically? If the latter then I would put the more general points aside for a moment and be more concerned about the association with the poor reputation Pacers often have among potential passengers following their (still very recent) pre-preservation main line service (notwithstanding my personal view that we should preserve a few Pacers, because they’re a part of railway history even if not everyone likes them).

 

I’m reminded of a book that I read about the Brighton Belle, which suggested that a lot of restaurant owners, and some heritage railways, sought to acquire Pullman vehicles to capitalise on the association with Pullman catering and service and the high quality that implies. By following a similar logic here, I can see how there might be a few issues…

[Solo]

The other issue with Pacers is that, despite having large and plentiful windows, the seating is very low down on the floor, so the windowsill is often well above shoulder height for children and smaller adults. This can be very claustrophobic, as it restricts the view of the (often lovely) countryside as it rolls by. First Generation DMUs are the opposite, with the bottom edge of the window by one's waist.

 

I know that technically Pacers now fall into the 'heritage' category, in that they no longer operate on the national network; but in my view, they do not belong on heritage lines, as not only are they too fresh from us having to endure them on a daily basis but they simply have none of the character of older types. I know people who have been deeply bemused by travelling a fair distance to a heritage railway only to be faced with the same train they hated travelling on to work for years turning up to escort them on their day out. Better that Pacers – useful and important though they were – are used as classrooms, static exhibits or possibly on the odd DMU gala day.

[nathan70000]

Some good points raised. I have to say I do think the reputation of the two railways I visited does influence my view- I probably wouldn't question a Pacer being used by a smaller line or a line that doesn't explicitly advertise itself as a heritage steam-based attraction i.e. the Wensleydale Railway.

 

I didn't travel on 144011 but I did have a ride on 144009 at the ELR. I must say the latter felt rather tired inside and the vinyl wrap for a fake TOC (applied for filming a soap I believe?) does it no favours. 144011 was much better turned out but still appeared to have a modern interior.

 

OO9 micro modeller's comment about Pullmans is interesting. Pacers have such an awful reputation they are practically the anti-Pullman, and they are widely known outside the enthusiast fraternity. There were so many negative headlines about them in the lead up to withdrawal that almost anyone who reads a newspaper- especially in the North- will be acutely aware of their faults.

[DavidB-AU]

I read endless letters in railway magazines of the 1970s and early 80s ridiculing suggestions that diesels should be preserved, because don't have the character of steam and don't belong on heritage lines. Now diesel galas are an intrinsic part of many heritage railways. Literally the same views resurface every 20 or so years when another generation of rollingstock is retired.

 

The job of a heritage railway is to preserve railway heritage. While the Pacers ended up doing things they were not designed to do for about twice their intended life, they are nevertheless an important part of railway history which needs to be preserved. Ergo, they belong on heritage railways.

The National Tramway Museum at Crich and the London Bus Museum at Brooklands have preserved vehicles of similar vintage to the Pacers (and even buses built this century are preserved) for a reason - they are a part of history, no matter how much some grumbled about them in regular service.

[Rivercider]

In recent years I have deliberately chosen to ride on a DMU on a number of heritage railways because DMUs were what I remember from 1960s trips to the seaside. I always try to ride up front if I can.

 

I liked the Pacers, I commuted to and from Bristol for 30 years (1977-2007) and for the last 15 years class 143s formed an important part of the train service. However I think they are still too 'new' for me to choose to ride one if I visit a heritage line if there was a steam or older heritage diesel option. I do agree that some should be preserved, they are an important part of railway history.

 

cheers

[rodent279]

The best ride I had on a Pacer was Bristol TM-Taunton, on a visit to the WSR diesel gala, in 2008. Bowling along at 70mph+ on the mainline was quite the experience! But they were designed for something different-lower speed branch & secondary lines, not intensive commuter services and long distance semi-inter city services.

I think I'd take a ride in one on a heritage diesel gala, but no, not sure I'd make a special visit for one.

 

[bandmbill]

14 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Part of the problem may be the KWVRs reputation.

 

Given it was a early starter in Preservation terms and thus has mainly been steam operated for around 4 decades many people will 'expect' it to be fielding steam locos and not recently retired pacers.

 

The East Lancs may be a bit younger but once again they are known for having a large number of steam locos so again visitor perceptions may well expect steam haulage (or 1960s diesels) and not a Pacer.

 

By contrast somewhere like the Mid Norfolk railway which only got going after rail privatisation and as such doesn't have a resident steam fleet is unlikely to cause the same level of 'expectation' in its visitors - and as such people may well be more inclined to travel on a Pacer when they visit.

To be fair to the KWVR their midweek timetable alternates steam and diesel trains…………

[009 micro modeller]

9 hours ago, nathan70000 said:

I probably wouldn't question a Pacer being used by a smaller line or a line that doesn't explicitly advertise itself as a heritage steam-based attraction i.e. the Wensleydale Railway.

Some of the slightly older 141s have been preserved for a few years, prior to the more recent Pacer withdrawals. I’m not sure why they were withdrawn earlier than the others.

 

4 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

The job of a heritage railway is to preserve railway heritage. While the Pacers ended up doing things they were not designed to do for about twice their intended life, they are nevertheless an important part of railway history which needs to be preserved. Ergo, they belong on heritage railways.

Exactly.

 

10 hours ago, Solo said:

I know that technically Pacers now fall into the 'heritage' category, in that they no longer operate on the national network; but in my view, they do not belong on heritage lines, as not only are they too fresh from us having to endure them on a daily basis but they simply have none of the character of older types.

Why? They are part of our railway heritage. ‘Character’ is subjective and indeed a similar comment could have been made in the 1960s about BR standard steam locos, when compared with pre-Nationalisation (and especially pre-Grouping) types. Perhaps it was made. It’s also a general argument made about more modern DMUs so not specific to Pacers.

 

In any case, whether people like something or not (as opposed to whether it’s historically important) is not a hugely relevant consideration when deciding whether it should be preserved, especially from a perspective of heritage railways as (working) museums. But then again, Pacers have a bit of an image problem now (which other stock of similar vintage doesn’t) and do heritage railways want to be associated with that?

[Hibelroad]

If it's a family day out the experience will be riding the line, the rolling stock used will be a secondary issue. Unfortunately economics are a big consideration and it seems that the preservation movement is experiencing the same problems that BR had, it's just that they are a few decades behind. 

[RJS1977]

Let's not forget that from the mid-80s onwards, Mark 1s formed the mainstay of the coaching fleet on many heritage lines, but Mark 1 based multiple units continued in front line service on the national network (particularly in the SE) until 2005.

[RJS1977]

In fact, until a couple of years ago, the newest item of stock on the Isle of Wight was the standard tank on the Steam Railway - which was nearly 20 years newer than the 1938 stock on the Ryde-Shanklin line!

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

 

The job of a heritage railway is to preserve railway heritage. While the Pacers ended up doing things they were not designed to do for about twice their intended life, they are nevertheless an important part of railway history which needs to be preserved. Ergo, they belong on heritage railways.

 

You ignore the fact that Heritage Railways only exist because the GENERAL PUBLIC and NOT ENTHUSIASTS are willing to pay cash to go and ride on their trains!

 

Bank managers are not going to cut them any financial slack just because they are running Pacers are they!

 

It doesn’t matter how ‘important’ Pacers might be to the railway scene in general they need to be useful in brining in cash for the hosting railway.

 

Things which don’t bring in cash because of their unpopularity with said general public or present a difficulty in making use of (e.g. sleeping cars and EMUs) are exactly the sort of thing the RM is ideally positioned to deal with as they are in theory supported by a Government grant and thus not hostage to visitor numbers in the same way Heritage Railways are.

 

You should also note that although diesel locomotives and 1st generation railcars have gradually been gaining acceptance with the general public over past decades surveys will still show there remains a distinct preference towards steam within that demographic and if steam is not offered then the amount of repeat business is less.

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, Hibelroad said:

If it's a family day out the experience will be riding the line, the rolling stock used will be a secondary issue. Unfortunately economics are a big consideration and it seems that the preservation movement is experiencing the same problems that BR had, it's just that they are a few decades behind. 

 

If a Heritage Railway is lucky enough to have vintage rolling stock (e.g. 4 wheel coaches / early bogies stock) then the public DO notice as such things stand out from the ‘norm’ and this can generate repeat business.

 

However more widely many Heritage Railways have noticed that visitor numbers as regards the general public are at best flatlining or at worst gradually declining year on year as people decide a ride on an old fashioned train is simply not value for money.

 

As a result railways are looking to enhance their offerings - and the cheapest way to do this is offer ‘themed’ days which just get overlayed on the standard timetable (requiring no extra railway related resources) like “meet the dinosaurs”, “meet Paw Patrol”, “Build with Lego”, etc.

 

These are in effect just an extension of the “Santa specials” which a staple of most railways activities (and which can generate up to half the railways annual revenue each year).

 

In other words to continue to be a viable business (and do what railway enthusiasts want in terms of restoration) its increasingly necessary to actually move away from that ‘authenticity’ so beloved by enthusiasts when it comes to revenue raising and putting on a Pacer produces exactly the opposite of what railways need in terms of revenue….

Edited August 25, 2023 by phil-b259

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Things which don’t bring in cash because of their unpopularity with said general public or present a difficulty in making use of (e.g. sleeping cars and EMUs) are exactly the sort of thing the RM is ideally positioned to deal with as they are in theory supported by a Government grant and thus not hostage to visitor numbers in the same way Heritage Railways are.

‘In theory’ being an important phrase I suspect, because much of the wider heritage sector is underfunded. Although grants can sometimes be available to other heritage railways, especially if they’re Accredited Museums (e.g. see NYMR ACE funding) so not exclusive to the NRM. I would have thought there might be some (perhaps quite profitable) opportunities for static use of sleeping cars even if they’re not particularly useful as running vehicles.

 

To come back to points made above, if the railway is based around the idea of creating an overall picture of a specific era they will also need stock that fits that, which again a Pacer often doesn’t.

 

4 hours ago, Hibelroad said:

If it's a family day out the experience will be riding the line, the rolling stock used will be a secondary issue.

 

Is it? Lots of people want steam or at least an “old” train as part of the experience. If it was just about the line they could ride on a suitably scenic/interesting National Rail line, almost certainly at a lower cost.

[Solo]

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

In any case, whether people like something or not (as opposed to whether it’s historically important) is not a hugely relevant consideration when deciding whether it should be preserved, especially from a perspective of heritage railways as (working) museums.

I'd argue that it's completely relevant. Working museums they may be, but the only way heritage railways can continue to operate is to attract the paying public – and for that, the exhibits themselves must be attractive. Some Pacers should absolutely be preserved – perhaps as actual museum exhibits – but on a heritage railway, the vast majority of visitors expect either a steam engine or, at the very least, a heritage diesel. Where I volunteer, the delight on a young child's face when a steam engine (something most have never seen before) hisses and chuffs its way onto the front of a train is tangible. It's about spectacle as much as anything else, and it's very hard to put on a show with a Pacer.

 

4 hours ago, Hibelroad said:

If it's a family day out the experience will be riding the line, the rolling stock used will be a secondary issue.

There are a lot of potential days out competing for people's hard-earned cash right now, so we must be able to provide something with a unique selling point. The vast majority of our visitors are not just out for a train ride, but a slightly special train ride. If they just wanted to go on a train, they'd just get a cheap ticket to somewhere local on the national network, which has plenty of scenic journey opportunities.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Solo said:

I'd argue that it's completely relevant. Working museums they may be, but the only way heritage railways can continue to operate is to attract the paying public – and for that, the exhibits themselves must be attractive.

Yes, although that’s not quite what I meant. Obviously they need to be financially viable, but we would be worse off if museums had only ever collected things that were popular at the time at which they were collected.

[Solo]

17 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Yes, although that’s not quite what I meant. Obviously they need to be financially viable, but we would be worse off if museums had only ever collected things that were popular at the time at which they were collected.

Ah, OK – yes, that's very true, and I can think of a good few loco classes (steam and diesel) that I wish hadn't been 'canned' quite so readily. It would have been lovely to see them in the flesh having pored over images of them in branch line books of yesteryear. I think I'm drawing more of a distinction between preserving trains as museum exhibits and relying on them to provide the backbone of a heritage railway service.