Pacers on preserved lines

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, cessna152towser said:

The 141s had their uses on the Weardale Railway.

Didn’t they scrap a 141 at one point? I’m not sure why, and it would have been before they acquired the 142 they have now.

 

7 hours ago, cessna152towser said:

Steam is not an option at Whitrope as the trackbed is leased from the Forestry Commission and it is a condition of the lease that steam is not run due to the potential fire risk.

I didn’t know that about Whitrope but it makes sense, and is relevant to other railways running through forested areas as well. Does this affect any longer term plans?

[RJS1977]

4 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I didn’t know that about Whitrope but it makes sense, and is relevant to other railways running through forested areas as well. 

 

That's one of the reasons that both the Festiniog and Vale of Rheidol converted to oil burners for some years.

[cctransuk]

Just now, RJS1977 said:

 

That's one of the reasons that both the Festiniog and Vale of Rheidol converted to oil burners for some years.

 

....... but now manage to operate coal-fired motive power with no apparent difficulty. Perhaps a case of someone identifying 'an accident waiting to happen'?

 

It seems, nowadays, that a whole sector of industry makes a very nice financial return from identifying 'accidents waiting to happen'!

 

CJI.

[009 micro modeller]

11 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

but now manage to operate coal-fired motive power with no apparent difficulty. Perhaps a case of someone identifying 'an accident waiting to happen'?

I thought the fire risk was only one consideration but a key issue was the cost of coal going up. Then it changed so they switched back to coal. I think some lines have considered switching to oil again more recently due to the difficulty/increased cost of getting coal.

 

More relevantly, and more recently, the NYMR has had to curtail steam services for the last few years because of the dry summers, which again relates partly to the forested areas it runs through.

[RJS1977]

12 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

....... but now manage to operate coal-fired motive power with no apparent difficulty. Perhaps a case of someone identifying 'an accident waiting to happen'?

 

It seems, nowadays, that a whole sector of industry makes a very nice financial return from identifying 'accidents waiting to happen'!

 

CJI.

 

I think it came down to economical factors. At the time, it was felt that the reduction in insurance premiums due to reduced fire risk outweighed any cost increase in using oil (IIRC the FR were also able to make use of waste oil from Trawsfynnydd - which was effectively free).

[cessna152towser]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Didn’t they scrap a 141 at one point? I’m not sure why, and it would have been before they acquired the 142 they have now.

If I recall correctly the Weardale Railway had three 141s, one of which was never operated but was stripped for spares and eventually scrapped by them.

 

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Does this affect any longer term plans?

As far as I know there are no plans to run steam at Whitrope.  When the heritage centre was first being set up around the turn of the millenium I recall there was some talk about possibly bringing in a Black 5 which around that time was said to be in storage near Morpeth, but I don't think it ever reached the stage of serious discussion.

[Reorte]

4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

It seems, nowadays, that a whole sector of industry makes a very nice financial return from identifying 'accidents waiting to happen'!

Sometimes that results in very absurd and depressing outcomes, and sometimes it results in very nasty accidents not happening.

[faulcon1]

As time marches on eventually all those who could remember steam in everyday use on the mainline will have gone to those big preserved railways in the sky and all the mortals will only remember diesels, DMU's and electrics. Of course there will be people born after the age of steam who will still only like steam. But Pacers, and every other DMU, diesels and electrics in service today will eventually have some of their number in preservation in the years to come.   

[Michael Hodgson]

5 minutes ago, faulcon1 said:

As time marches on eventually all those who could remember steam in everyday use on the mainline will have gone to those big preserved railways in the sky and all the mortals will only remember diesels, DMU's and electrics. Of course there will be people born after the age of steam who will still only like steam. But Pacers, and every other DMU, diesels and electrics in service today will eventually have some of their number in preservation in the years to come.   

 

JUst because some things existed historically doesn't mean they should be preserved.  I'm old enough to remember real steam, but I also remember the enviromental, economic, and technical environment in which it operated.

The preserved railways don't preserve smog, rationing, hard toilet paper even if they seem to be happy to get people to dress up as characters out of Dad's Army.

I see covid, inflation and Pacers in the same light - I'm not going to spend good money to "enjoy" those aspects of our cultural history.

 

[adb968008]

Pacers and HSTs are going to define 1990’s preservation, just as Westerns and 55’s defined 1970’s preservation.

 

I suspect people maybe surprised how many 150/153/6/8 will be preserved too.

 

economics of operating them will stack up in their favour, and the public generally wont mind, if its part of a balanced day out (ie something steam for part of the day too). Dont forget most public arent train enthusiasts, but are happy to have a day out, which includes a train ride that isnt the ordinary commute.

 

Just look at US railroads, almost none run multiple steam daily, indeed most dont even run two services at a time. A lot of US lines simply offer a train ride, one to a few times a day with a diesel…. and thats sufficient to run on a commercial basis.

 

Passengers there arent sniffy about what traction it is…Preserved lines would do well promoting whats beyond their stations for a day out, as the railway becomes the transportation mode for that day out, rather than the focus of it.

 

I wonder what some here think of the Bluebell putting a skating rink in the engine shed ?

I think I know what the kids skating on it think… one word.. Cool.

 

I think a 153 or a 156, with windows removed and all weather seating around tables inside would be hugely popular on some scenic lines.

Pacers have an aura and a place in history, that will ride them through preservation, people will be curious.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Just look at US railroads, almost none run multiple steam daily, indeed most dont even run two services at a time. A lot of US lines simply offer a train ride, one to a few times a day with a diesel…. and thats sufficient to run on a commercial basis.

I was thinking this as well but some of them probably do benefit from being in spectacular scenery (so the ride itself would be a suitably interesting activity, even on a modern train) or being located in a part of the US with very few public passenger rail services, so that riding on a train of any kind becomes a novel experience.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I wonder what some here think of the Bluebell putting a skating rink in the engine shed ?

I think it’s a good idea. At best, it engages with a new audience and encourages them to visit and experience a heritage railway site, and even if that doesn’t quite work it hopefully brings the Bluebell some extra income to support their heritage activities.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Passengers there arent sniffy about what traction it is…Preserved lines would do well promoting whats beyond their stations for a day out, as the railway becomes the transportation mode for that day out, rather than the focus of it.

I do like this idea but a lot of heritage railways (and other heritage sites) are under pressure to increase secondary spend from their visitors, which often means keeping them on the railway but providing extra activities for visitors to do, or things for them to see. Arguably though, in some areas encouraging visitors to ride on the railway as part of a day out that also involves visiting other historic sites would help with their heritage/education objectives because it helps people to understand how the railway fitted into the local area more generally.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I think a 153 or a 156, with windows removed and all weather seating around tables inside would be hugely popular on some scenic lines.

This is an interesting idea, I’m less convinced about removing the windows entirely given the kind of weather that often occurs in some scenic parts of Britain, although apparently in New Zealand they have a carriage a bit like this in service on main line scenic rail routes: https://www.greatjourneysnz.com/travel-experience/open-air-viewing-carriage/

 

It’s interesting though because, compared to some other countries, I don’t think Britain has many purely ‘tourist’ lines (other than miniature railways and a few quite specific examples like the Snowdon Mountain Railway). The private lines generally have more of a heritage focus, and while there are some National Rail lines that are particularly promoted for tourism that’s generally an added benefit on top of their main public transport function. The Trawsfynydd and Blaenau Ffestiniog scheme at one stage looked as though it could have gone with a more explicitly ‘tourist’ focus, with the involvement of people who were also involved with plans to develop the lake for tourism and outdoor activities - the railway could then perhaps have provided a way for people to reach these, but it could have been a fairly basic DMU-operated railway, with stock adapted to the requirements of operating a tourist service rather than restoring to a previous condition, and primarily used as a way to access the lake or enjoy the scenery.

Edited November 6, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Passengers there arent sniffy about what traction it is…Preserved lines would do well promoting whats beyond their stations for a day out, as the railway becomes the transportation mode for that day out, rather than the focus of it.

They aren't fussed about what sort of steam engine it is, and might just about recognise a diesel-hauled set or a heritage DMU as a train (something they don't ever use in everyday life) but they don't come to a preserved railway to catch what appears to be a bus. 

 

Most preserved lines in this country aren't a means of transport.  They are more like a fairground ride - they take you from A to B and back to A again.  In most cases there's nothing much at B, you often wouldn't be able to park your car there because of land ownership issues, in some cases you can't even get off the train! 

 

Yes, there may be other attractions nearby, but you're going to have to drive there, not travel there using this quaint little train.  If you wanted to visit the local stately home or whatever, that would probably a different day out, because you've got to pay admission for that as well as buying a ticket for the train, so combining the two would make it too expensive a day out.  It too has a place to eat and gift shop selling tourist tat.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Cumberland is the wettest county in England, but we manage just fine without windows.

Or roofs:

[faulcon1]

On 05/11/2023 at 23:18, Michael Hodgson said:

 

 

The preserved railways don't preserve smog, rationing, hard toilet paper even if they seem to be happy to get people to dress up as characters out of Dad's Army.

 

Oh we've already got hard rough toilet paper as seen here.

 

[RJS1977]

7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

They aren't fussed about what sort of steam engine it is, and might just about recognise a diesel-hauled set or a heritage DMU as a train (something they don't ever use in everyday life) but they don't come to a preserved railway to catch what appears to be a bus. 

 

Most preserved lines in this country aren't a means of transport.  They are more like a fairground ride - they take you from A to B and back to A again.  In most cases there's nothing much at B, you often wouldn't be able to park your car there because of land ownership issues, in some cases you can't even get off the train! 

 

Yes, there may be other attractions nearby, but you're going to have to drive there, not travel there using this quaint little train.  If you wanted to visit the local stately home or whatever, that would probably a different day out, because you've got to pay admission for that as well as buying a ticket for the train, so combining the two would make it too expensive a day out.  It too has a place to eat and gift shop selling tourist tat.

 

Sorry, I have to disagree there. I can think of a number of heritage railways that have some sort of "destination" at the end or partway along.

 

K&ESR has Bodiam Castle.

Swanage has Corfe Castle or Purbeck Mineral & mining musuem, or Swanage itself if going the other way.

Torbay & Dartmouth has Dartmouth.

WHR has Caernarvon (including castle), or on shorter journeys Beddgelert.

NYMR has Whitby and Goathland etc.

Vale of Rheidol has Devil's Bridge waterfalls

 

etc

 

Whilst I can see your point about people not wanting to pay admission prices as well as train fares, that will obviously vary from passenger to passenger and not all "attractions" necessarily charge an entry fee. Note also that both Bodiam and Corfe Castles are National Trust properties, so NT members don't have to pay an admission charge. It could well be that there are (or were) passengers visiting the neighbouring attractions that wouldn't have done so had the railway not been there.

 

Up until the pandemic, lines were often working quite nicely with the "attractions" at the end, and indeed the attractions often offered a justification both for getting the necessary permissions to open the line, and in some cases for grant funding.

 

We need to be very careful in saying that heritage railways do not offer a means of transport and are more like a fairground ride. Currently heritage railways (other than those entirely within museum sites like the demonstration lines at Didcot) attract 0% VAT precisely because they do offer a transport function.

 

However since the pandemic, a number of railways have attempted to cut costs by only offering tickets on particular trains (so you come straight back on the train you went out on) and/or closing intermediate stations, and no longer issue single tickets. This prevents visitors from visiting the attractions along the line, which both discourages some visitors from coming to the railway, and reduces the amount of money visitors spend in the local economy. It then becomes questionable whether those railways are still providing a transport function. I for one would hate to see HMRC decide that this is the case and start slapping VAT on heritage railways.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

They aren't fussed about what sort of steam engine it is, and might just about recognise a diesel-hauled set or a heritage DMU as a train (something they don't ever use in everyday life) but they don't come to a preserved railway to catch what appears to be a bus. 

 

Most preserved lines in this country aren't a means of transport.  They are more like a fairground ride - they take you from A to B and back to A again.  In most cases there's nothing much at B, you often wouldn't be able to park your car there because of land ownership issues, in some cases you can't even get off the train! 

 

Yes, there may be other attractions nearby, but you're going to have to drive there, not travel there using this quaint little train.  If you wanted to visit the local stately home or whatever, that would probably a different day out, because you've got to pay admission for that as well as buying a ticket for the train, so combining the two would make it too expensive a day out.  It too has a place to eat and gift shop selling tourist tat.

In my 40 odd years of riding preserved railways, I don't think I have ever only gone for a pure fairground ride out and back, then leave the premises.

 

Even during covid, which was probably preservations darkest hour, I still wandered to Swanage beach after the ride, when everything else on site was off limits, and the MHR gala in Winter 2020 when every thing was assigned seating, we still wandered into Alresford, reading the sign about the spy ring and the station loos!!

 

Even if its just a visit to the loco shed, museum, stock in a platform, or lunch at the king and castle, or a look at Summerseat viaduct, I suspect most passengers have a meander about, I doubt they all just fairground ride it, of course if you build on the attractions the upsell becomes more compelling to hang around.

 

If that means a Pacer to one station, a Bulleid to the end of the line and a class 37 back, it will appeal because its not an electrostar or an Azuma…. The world has moved on and BR DMUs are fading to history.

 

Pretty soon a HST ride will be a memory.
Unless you do the Midland Pullman or head to Mexico..

 

I thought the GWR HST set at SVR diesel gala looked the nuts..

 

 

Of course then theres this…

 

Genesis chapter 1 with the 125groups first mainline preserved HST railtour, looking as close to EMR condition as possible… it w as hard thinking anything had changed at all since May 2021….

 

 

 

not much changed since “The end” in May 2021…

 

 

 

I’m just waiting for Pacers to find their place, but notoriety and polarisation are the perfect emotions that appeal to preserved railways… pacers in Reg Rlways, Provincial, GMPTE and Cornish liveries will appeal… they just need to get past the denial stage of some enthusiasts, who need their historical clocks to move forward a few years and recognise the worlds moved on a bit… more importantly, railway accountants will also realise why they saved countless BR Branchlines too…

 

coming to a preserved line near you soon..

 

 

 

unfortunately not this one.. 142059’s life ended prematurely a short while after this picture was taken, crashing in Liverpool on October 5th 1991, but its cab front still exists on the staff block at Blackpool North.

Edited November 6, 2023 by adb968008

[Northmoor]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Pacers and HSTs are going to define 1990’s preservation, just as Westerns and 55’s defined 1970’s preservation.

 

I suspect people maybe surprised how many 150/153/6/8 will be preserved too.

 

economics of operating them will stack up in their favour, and the public generally wont mind, if its part of a balanced day out (ie something steam for part of the day too). Dont forget most public arent train enthusiasts, but are happy to have a day out, which includes a train ride that isnt the ordinary commute.

 

Just look at US railroads, almost none run multiple steam daily, indeed most dont even run two services at a time. A lot of US lines simply offer a train ride, one to a few times a day with a diesel…. and thats sufficient to run on a commercial basis.

 

Passengers there arent sniffy about what traction it is…Preserved lines would do well promoting whats beyond their stations for a day out, as the railway becomes the transportation mode for that day out, rather than the focus of it.

 

I wonder what some here think of the Bluebell putting a skating rink in the engine shed ?

I think I know what the kids skating on it think… one word.. Cool.

 

I think a 153 or a 156, with windows removed and all weather seating around tables inside would be hugely popular on some scenic lines.

Pacers have an aura and a place in history, that will ride them through preservation, people will be curious.

 

@009 micro modeller has already answered a lot of the points but I'll make my own anyway.

 

Most US heritage railways are generally very, very different beasts from British ones.  As you've said they don't run many services, but then our longest lines would be at the shorter end of normal to the US sector; 30 miles plus is typical, they are always marketed primarily as a scenic train ride, frequently through a route inaccessible by road.  You also need to consider that while we talk about the last generation who remember BR steam (who we can still learn from) now all being retired, steam in North America had almost disappeared 10-15 years earlier so there are very few still alive who have any experience of working it.  A US steam locomotive is a curiosity rather than a piece of heritage equipment, to most people riding behind one like going for a trip in a replica Viking Longship instead of a river cruise in a modern boat.

 

One of our lines operating a mile and half from the edge of an industrial estate to end in a field, is not going to be able to charge an premium fare for a diesel ride.  A steam locomotive (any will do) provides the selling point; in the UK people ARE sniffy about what the traction is.  Maybe that will change in 20 years, who knows?  I cannot see trains with non-opening windows catching on for (private) scenic lines.  Passengers want to be able to see and smell the scenery and hear the trees rusting, birdsong etc, not be sealed in a coach listening to the air-conditioning unit.

 

As for ice-rinks, well maybe as a temporary attraction, but if you start adding permanent non-heritage attractions to a heritage site, it quickly devalues the site and the railway becomes just part of a theme park.  This might seem academic, but how many will want to volunteer to operate a railway on a site that increasingly resembles Alton Towers?

[adb968008]

The industry will need to consider itself.

 

aiui the HSE area of our hobby is seeking to restrict opening windows, even carriage door locks are under scrutiny and suggestions pre1948 stock may become unusable.

 

Last weekend I learned Blackpools Rocket tram will probably never be deemed safe to carry passengers ever again due to emergency escape routes and inclined nature of it.

 

change is coming, volunteers are going and we have seen many stand offs between preservation societies who campaigned to create a preserved line, against charities that were created by volunteers to manage that line, whom have since seen those charities subsumed control over the line pushing volunteer interests aside… 

 

Down the road some lines will become fully fledged commercial tourist attractions, even if they maintain charitable status. That means things we hold dear today, may not fit the future, and the product offering changes to suit.. some lines may even become private commuter operations once again, as part of or in conjunction with the national network.

Those lines running down an industrial estate for a mile to a field will probably never evolve and never be more than they are today, indeed they are the ones that may one day be all thats left of the original hobby and survive solely to that good will and what parts of H&S they can work with.

 

But the rest, will need to become more commercially independent, if that means shorter runs, less steam and more units to shoulder it, so be it. You cant just price rise your yourself to profit without losing customers. So the alternative is most likely the end of the line, and that could impact the bigger ones more than the smaller ones.

 

Aircon doesnt have to be turned on, on a 142.. they werent called greenhouses for nothing, nearly every window opens and they have more windows for scenic views than any other carriage or unit ever made, which counts positively for them, in addition to their fuel efficiency… it might not seem this way today, but they are a gift to the hobby, even a 101 isnt going to give you that…

 

Swanage could have saved a small fortune. (£1mn that wasnt it ?)  using a pacer (c£15k) instead of overhauling the 117/121, and would passengers turn sniffy for a 142 instead of a 117 ? Maybe a more flexible 159 will be appropriate someday and offer inbound from further afield ?

A couple of pacers from Rawtenstall to Castleton could see off the constant proding the ELR is getting about being in the way of progressing modern transport up the valley.

 

and I know the pitchforks will be sharpened by the thought of a 142 on the GCR but their is logic when the first and last trains of the day along the stretched line to Nottingham emerges to catch the early birds and stragglers.

 

i’m old enough to remember all the sniffies coming out in force against preserving mk2’s… today no one cares. Much effort instead was diverted to saving  pre1948 later departmental coaches that instead of restored ended up the bonfire of failed sniffy dreams.. without mk2s today the hobby would be struggling as theres not enough mk1s to go around… eventually there wont be enough mk2’s either…and then what ? - its a shame they didnt save more mk1 EMUs instead, they could make good hauled stock.

 

I also remember the sniffies coming out against preserving mainline diesels at all… the mid 1980’s saw lots of 25’s, later 20’s having a hard time to find a first home… no one would turn them away today.

 

The best example of a preserved railway Ive seen has to be Dartmouth… Class 117 DMU coaches used as hauled stock, offering lots of open windows, gangways fitted for access, and a straight to the point end to end service.. A right sized steam fleet of freight locos with pretty liveries and names, little excess and wastage, diesels for the shoulder and a non-stop service to a fanstastic tourist destination and ferry… with excellant gift shops. Is it Heritage ? - to joe public they wouldnt know or notice, but its very well run.

Edited November 7, 2023 by adb968008

[BachelorBoy]

1) Should Pacers be preserved?

      Of course. None of God's locos and rolling stock deserve extinction, even if they are only preserved as a terrible warning of how not to build locos and rolling stock

 

2) Should Pacers be used instead of steam-hauled services? 

      No. For goodness sake don't be silly. The punters want steamers. Or HSTs.

     

[phil-b259]

15 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Pacers and HSTs are going to define 1990’s preservation, just as Westerns and 55’s defined 1970’s preservation.

 

I suspect people maybe surprised how many 150/153/6/8 will be preserved too.

 

economics of operating them will stack up in their favour, and the public generally wont mind, if its part of a balanced day out (ie something steam for part of the day too). Dont forget most public arent train enthusiasts, but are happy to have a day out, which includes a train ride that isnt the ordinary commute.

 

Just look at US railroads, almost none run multiple steam daily, indeed most dont even run two services at a time. A lot of US lines simply offer a train ride, one to a few times a day with a diesel…. and thats sufficient to run on a commercial basis.

 

Passengers there arent sniffy about what traction it is…Preserved lines would do well promoting whats beyond their stations for a day out, as the railway becomes the transportation mode for that day out, rather than the focus of it.

 

I wonder what some here think of the Bluebell putting a skating rink in the engine shed ?

I think I know what the kids skating on it think… one word.. Cool.

 

I think a 153 or a 156, with windows removed and all weather seating around tables inside would be hugely popular on some scenic lines.

Pacers have an aura and a place in history, that will ride them through preservation, people will be curious.

 

 

The thing  you need to appreciate here is the passage of time - particularly when it comes to the general public!

 

When BR was chock full of blue diesels then I doubt many folk would have wanted to go to a Heritage railway to ride behind yet another 'blue diesel' (even if it looked / sounded different to the ones BR was still using)

 

I also seem to recall reading about an incident on the Bluebell in the early 1990s when a freshly delivered Mk1 in NSE livery had to be pressed into passenger service and the railway got a load of complaints from people who didn't appreciate coming to the Bluebell to ride in the 'same coaches' (by which the passengers meant the Mk1 slam door EMUs) they did during their commutes into London in (It was hastily repainted green over the winter plus ex NSE interior signage removed and the complaints stopped)

 

So while its true that in future decades the Pacers and Sprinter fleets might well gain acceptance as a Heritage product with the public at large, the brutal truth is that at present they are too fresh in peoples memories of national train travel to be truly appreciated in the way that older trains are and as such any railway proposing to use them needs to be vary careful in how they get deployed.

Edited November 7, 2023 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

16 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The thing  you need to appreciate here is the passage of time - particularly when it comes to the general public!

 

When BR was chock full of blue diesels then I doubt many folk would have wanted to go to a Heritage railway to ride behind yet another 'blue diesel' (even if it looked / sounded different to the ones BR was still using)

 

I also seem to recall reading about an incident on the Bluebell in the early 1990s when a freshly delivered Mk1 in NSE livery had to be pressed into passenger service and the railway got a load of complaints from people who didn't appreciate coming to the Bluebell to ride in the 'same coaches' (by which the passengers meant the Mk1 slam door EMUs) they did during their commutes into London in (It was hastily repainted green over the winter plus ex NSE interior signage removed and the complaints stopped)

 

So while its true that in future decades the Pacers and Sprinter fleets might well gain acceptance as a Heritage product with the public at large, the brutal truth is that at present they are too fresh in peoples memories of national train travel to be truly appreciated in the way that older trains are and as such any railway proposing to use them needs to be vary careful in how they get deployed.

I could quite imagine the pitchforks at Bluebell in the 1990’s turning out an NSE coach.

😀

If a 73, 33, EPB and 207 turned up back then, i’m sure a mushroom cloud would have formed over sussex.

A lot of Sir Humphries and little Miss Sussexes would have simply burst.

😗

however other lines in the 1990’s were much more progressive, no one in Bury complained at this scene in 1991, and you could still ride 50’s from Waterloo and NSE stock was being used on Manchester services everyday…

 

 

 

As you say its the passage of time, but also the constraints of cash and practicality.

 

if Haywards Heath ever comes off, a Pacer, or some other unit may well be the difference between affordability, practicality and time for reaching that goal, or not. (Personally if this section became a preserved 3rd rail operation i’d love it but can understand the difficulties that would entail).

 

I cannot imagine the Bluebell mainline certifying its entire fleet and desecrating its victorian stock with door locks and retention tanks, ertms etc for the Ardingly to Haywards Heath section.

 

A 143 in GWR wont look that far out of place with chocolatebox sussex and i’m sure the curious locals wont have ridden on one before, but read about the horrors of them in less well heeled parts of the country.

 

I see no one complaining in these early 1990’s scenes either…

 

 

 

 

NYMR was running a class 24 in Blue with Blue Greys through the 1970/80’s as well.

 

The kick back at this time was the need for “BR Steam” as the public “refused to ride industrials” I recall was the argument back then… how the argument changes to suit the politics.

 

The problem with “over my dead body” mentalities at preserved railways, is frequently resolved by the realisation of that statement coming true…. A brand new JA with 2010 era modern Headlights ?..I bet no one in Sheffield Park saw that coming in 1958. But it feels to me the aims of early preservationists were to reopen lines, the stock was less important.. many early days pictures of many lines is rough and ready anything goes cobbled together.  Its the “enthusiasts” that subsequently followed that have the strong opinions on what “good” looks like… if they went back to the founders of those lines you’d probably find they’d think a pacer was funny and agree to it.

Edited November 7, 2023 by adb968008

[papagolfjuliet]

48 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

NYMR was running a class 24 in Blue with Blue Greys through the 1970/80’s as well.

 

 

On a point of order D5032 only ran in rail blue for its first few months of service, and even then BR insisted that the double arrow and TOPS class number be painted out, so in fact it ran as number 032. It was then repainted in a fictitious two tone green livery which it carried until 1982, after which it wore something which was almost but not quite BR green. 

 

 

A detailied history can be found here: https://www.derbysulzers.com/24032.html

Edited November 7, 2023 by papagolfjuliet

[adb968008]

20 minutes ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

 

 

A detailied history can be found here: https://www.derbysulzers.com/24032.html

Shock horror, blue and grey mk1’s in the 1970’s… what would the public make of it.. they could ride them anywhere…

(I bet most of them had no idea some were ex-XP64 rake though)…. And after 1982 they would have the choice of two class 55’s at the front as well, for nearly a decade tooo..

 

(flickr url)
 

whats more the visitors loved it, busting the myth of “too modern”.

 

A provincial pacer to whitby, how more historically accurate could you get of a 30 year old scene ?

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by adb968008

[papagolfjuliet]

Six years in the case of No.19, which moved to Loughborough in 1987 because the NYMR had enough serviceable steam to operate most of its train and had reduced the diesel diagram to one return trip per day, first thing in the morning and last thing in the evening with a day long layover in between. No.9 remained on the Moors until 1990, but after returning from overhaul at ICI Wilton - in green - in 1998 it was only based on the line for a matter of months before moving to Barrow Hill. The NYMR used lots of diesels in the early 80s because it needed them, but within a decade both Deltics and both Class 14s and the Warship and the Hymek and the Clayton and the Class 100s were gone because they were no longer needed, and all that was left was a trio of Sulzers and a Hoover

 

And the visitors did not love the blue and greys, which is why they were phased out. The kind of people who lean out of train windows pretending to be aeroplanes loved it, and there they are in that photo; there is almost nobody else around. Diesels are much more marketable now than they were then because they are now rare sight on the national network; in the 80s most preserved lines which would even give them house room saw them as a necessary evil.

[rodent279]

40 minutes ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

On a point of order D5032 only ran in rail blue for its first few months of service, and even then BR insisted that the double arrow and TOPS class number be painted out, so in fact it ran as number 032. It was then repainted in a fictitious two tone green livery which it carried until 1982, after which it wore something which was almost but not quite BR green. 

 

 

A detailied history can be found here: https://www.derbysulzers.com/24032.html

I rather hope 5032 reappears in its early unauthentic two tone green when it finally reappears.