BR Mark 1 suburban coaches working with earlier suburban coaches

[Fredo]

Hi, does anyone know if the BR Mk 1 suburban coaches worked in mixed sets with earlier suburban coaches, and if so on what routes. Thanks Fred

[Wickham Green too]

Everywhere they were used ( and not so often in the 'suburbs' )........... until the earlier vehicles were withdrawn.

[Mike_Walker]

Here is a classic example.  6165 brings a down passenger train into Bourne End formed of a variety  of stock, a LMS brake, a BR Mark 1, a GWR Hawksworth compartment coach and a SR van for good measure in 1961.

 

Photo by Mike Peart from the Marlow & District Railway Society archive.

[Cwmtwrch]

I can offer you a GWR second with a BR brake second at Dowlais Cae Harris in 1963. All the operators were concerned about was the number of seats in each class and the amount of van space available, so, as Wickham Green too says, BR coaches could turn up anywhere, subject to loading gauge requirements; long underframe BR coaches were banned or restricted on some lines, which is why some non-corridor suburbans came in both 57ft and 64ft versions.

[Nearholmer]

I’m not totally certain, but I would expect to find that in suburban service entire rakes would be more likely to be swapped-out old for new, because they ran as fixed formations, if not exactly fully fixed rakes, whereas on more rural services where loadings varied more, and supplementary coaches were used, higgeldy-piggeldy formations would arise more commonly. I suppose an extreme example of the suburban thing is where the old rakes were articulated - you can’t exactly mix things up on those.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Wheatley]

Glasgow suburban services were often  fixed 5 car sets with BR 57' Mk1s used interchangeably with LMS non-gangwayed stock in the same sets. LNER Thompsons also turn up in photos dotted around the sets.

 

The number of seats available was more important than that they matched visually. 

[Three Cocks Junction]

From "The Heyday of Steam in South Wales by Derek Huntriss:

 

September 1963 at Dowlais Cae Harris. 0-6-2T No. 5660 with 2 non-corridor coaches. 1st an ex-GW 2nd, then a BR MK1 brake 2nd, both lined maroon. Brake end in the middle of the train.

 

From "On Cambrian Lines" by Derek Huntriss:

 

August 1963 at Oswestry. 2-6-0 No. 46512 with 2 non-corridor coaches. 1st a BR MK1 2nd, then an ex-GW brake 2nd, both lined maroon. Brake end in middle of train again. I can't tell whether the MK1 2nd is compartment or open. Said to be the Llanfyllin branch train.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Working from photos BR non-gangway coaches were in the main mixed in with those of big four. The ER did start to use them in set formations on the GNR before the end of steam, SL/BS/CL/CL/SL/BS on outer suburban, and BS/S/S/S/BS* on inner suburban. On the LTSR where they were form in 4 car sets BS/SL/S/CL, like the rebuilt Illford stock with Thompson style bodies. Even on the LTSR they ended up mixed with LMS and MR stock at times.

 

*Additional S was added about the time diesels took over fully and then one of the BS was changed for another S leaving one BS normally the second coach from the country end.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m not totally certain, but I would expect to find that in suburban service entire rakes would be more likely to be swapped-out old for new, because they ran as fixed formations, if not exactly fully fixed rakes, whereas on more rural services where loadings varied more, and supplementary coaches were used, higgeldy-piggeldy formations would arise more commonly. I suppose an extreme example of the suburban thing is where the old rakes were articulated - you can’t exactly mix things up on those.

 

 

When one of our through London (off the bra nch_ sets was formed with non-gangway coaches it was in the best of Western traditions - i.e a variety of stock including some BR suburban stock as well as ex GW 'home brewed' varieties

[Nearholmer]

I really cannot understand these non-electrified railways - all very strange.

[The Johnster]

In many cases, the formations booked for particular diagrams were fixed in the sense of the mix of accommodation required and the position of the brake van(s), as ordered by the Traffic Dept.  At Tondu, where practice was typical of this, there were numbered sets of two and three coach formations, and additional strengtheners for Saturday and schools working, but they were simply formations to the accommodation requirements and not permanently coupled in any formal manner; they didn't carry set numbers and could be made or broken up as required.

 

Certainly there were places where the sets were formally coupled and numbered as sets; it depended on local requirements.  B sets (only actually called that in the Bristol area, btw, a railwayman from the London or Birmingham areas wouldn't know what you were talking about, B set meant something else in the Birmingham area but we have adopted the term to describe semi-permanently coupled sets of BCs with the van ends outermost in the hobby), the London area Mainline & City and 4-coach 57' Collett sets, and the articulated sets on the GW and LNER were examples of this, and some branch lines with particular requirements had branded dedicated stock as well.  The Southern went in for branded sets in a big way, perhaps to reflect the multiple unit aspect of the electric working. 

 

This is not to say that, where informal arrangements were in use, combinations of stock did not stay coupled together for lengthy periods, and this is often bourne out by photographic evidence.  To return to Tondu, because I am familiar with it, an autotrailer combination of diagram N W 37 W next the engine and A10 W 26 W lasted for some time after being introduced to the area in connection with the establishment of auto working for the autumn 1953 timetable; auto trailers were more work to couple and uncouple than normal stock and tended to be left as they were more.  There were also twin gangwayed-within-the-set ex-TVR auto trains at Tondu.

 

Photos in the John Hodge/Stuart Davies Tondu Valleys book show 4144 with a mk1 S and a Collett BS at Troedyrhiw Garth 10/11/62 on p206; the guard is helping to load a pram into the van but the details of the Collett are obscured a bit by heating steam, a shot of the same train same day at Maesteg on p217, and again that day with two shots at Nantyfyllon, probably with an earlier working heading up-valley.  The mk1 is a 64' 10-compartment type in lined maroon, and the Collett BS is more clearly visible in the second shot, a 'going away' photo, as a flat-ended type.  Even on those gradients the train is not hard work for a large prairie.   TTBOMK both 57' and 64' mk1s were used in South Wales, but no composites or brakes, so they tended to be utilised as spares or strengtheners.

 

I've seen photos of similar trains at Llancaiach & Nelson and on the Bala-Blaenau Ffestiniog line (and the slopes of Cwm Prysor and Arenig Fawr are about as far away from 'suburban' working as it gets) as well.

 

To sum up, yes, you can mix mk1 suburbans with big four stock, depends on the exact area but there's plenty of examples.  TTBOMK only the London Division had complete trains of them on the WR, 64footers, and they were rare on the Southern, seen photos of them on the Exmouth and Lymington branches.  There were complete trains of them on the ER KX/Moorgate suburban routes,, but apart from these and the Paddington examples I'm unaware of the practice elsewhere; Glasgow GSW perhaps?

[Hal Nail]

I've seen a mk1 on the Looe branch, which I mention purely as a segway into a related question!

 

Many of the Cornish branches, and im sure elsewhere, started from mainline stations that didn't obviously have carriage facilities - eg Liskeard, Lostwithiel, Gwinear Road etc etc. Did the stock travel from somewhere else every day or was it left overnight at one or other end?

 

I think the Looe branch had two trains running with strengthening coaches on some days, so could be 6 coaches needed on and off.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Hal Nail

[50A55B]

The York-Malton-Whitby loco hauled sets were a mix of Thompson and BR Suburbans in the last few years of workings (to 1965).

[bécasse]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The Southern went in for branded sets in a big way, perhaps to reflect the multiple unit aspect of the electric working. 

 

The practice pre-dates electrification as all three of the main SR constituents made significant use of long term fixed set formations although I am not quite sure whether all three actually branded the sets. In some cases the sets had to remain fixed as equipment provision (eg for lighting) was based on the formed set and not on individual carriages.

[Wickham Green too]

45 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

... Did the stock travel from somewhere else every day or was it left overnight at one or other end? ...

There would have been examples of both scenarios ........ if the branch loco(s) had somewhere to bed down for the night then the coaches probably slept nearby but if the loco(s) came from a nearby big town they probably brought a train with them.

[The Johnster]

It may have been predicated on the presence or absence of loco facilities at terminus or junction, which in turn was rooted firstly in the history of the branch and secondly in the traffic requirements.  There is, contrary to accepted wisdom, no such thing as a typical or standard GW branch line.  Many were built by locally promoted independent companies in small towns and villages eager to be connected by these new-fangled railways to London or the big towns so that they could all make their fortunes, and then, usually shortly before or shortly after the branch opened to traffic and not infrequently after the board of directors was confronted with the bill for all the work the BoT wanted doing before they'd allow anything to run, reality hit, hard.  At that point, in fact precisely at that point when the realisation that there were no fortunes to be made and the investors started thinking about how they'd recoup their losses, a nice man from one of the big companies turned up and made them a generous offer...  The local directors breathed a sigh of relief to have been relieved of the burden, but the profits (if there ever were any; these branches were considered loss-leaders and traffic feeders to the main lines by the big companies and most of them never made a penny in their own right) from the branch went to the big company's coffers and wealth flowed away from the terminus to London and the big towns.

 

Not all of this was always completely free of interested mendacity; for example the Swansea Vale Railway was eyed up by the Midland, but refused to consider selling out. so the Midland, seeking an outlet to the Bristol Channel coast via Hereford, Brecon and running powers over the N&B, set about destablising the Swansea Vale with malicious and scurrilous rumours of boardroom jiggerpokery, out and out dishonest newspaper reports of safety failures and omissions and other media sabotage, until the value of the SV's shares was driven down to the point where the Midland takeover was at a knock-down price.  This sort of business piracy was quite common in the early railway era.

 

The traffic requirements were based on the direction of the first train of the day and vice versa. If the first train came down from the junction with the London papers and the mail, loco and stock were provided from the junction or somewhere nearby on the main line, but if the first train went up to the junction starting from the terminus to connect with a London-bound express, the loco and stock would be stabled overnight at the terminus, the last train of the day being a reversal of this. 

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

36 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

... a nice man from one of the big companies turned up and made them a generous offer...  

Well, an offer that in the circumstances they'd have been daft to decline ....... generous ? ; no - lesser of two evils ? ; probably.

[Hal Nail]

10 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

if the branch loco(s) had somewhere to bed down for the night then the coaches probably slept nearby

Kingsbridge had a carriage shed come to think of it. As did Titfield of course, although not sure you'd get a mk1 in it!

Edited August 27, 2023 by Hal Nail

[The Johnster]

47 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Well, an offer that in the circumstances they'd have been daft to decline ....... generous ? ; no - lesser of two evils ? ; probably.

You seem to have got the gist.  

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I've seen a mk1 on the Looe branch, which I mention purely as a segway into a related question!

 

Many of the Cornish branches, and im sure elsewhere, started from mainline stations that didn't obviously have carriage facilities - eg Liskeard, Lostwithiel, Gwinear Road etc etc. Did the stock travel from somewhere else every day or was it left overnight at one or other end?

 

I think the Looe branch had two trains running with strengthening coaches on some days, so could be 6 coaches needed on and off.

Define 'carriage facilities'.  Actually all that is needed is somewhere to stable coaching stock overnight and give access for cleaning and a station platform was good enough for that.

 

Simole guide really is taht if there was an engine shed somewhere on teh branch then coaches would probably be kept there too and that would definitely be the case if the first passenger train of thee day started from a branch terminus.  If the first train started from the main line junction coaches might well be left overnight in the branch platform although it depended if there was room to hold coaching stock at wherever the branch engine came from from.

 

As the first passenger train (actually a Mixed Train) started from Liskeard then coaches were kept there as the engine came from Moorswater and went back there at night.  The first train between Lostwithiel and Fowey started from Lostwithiel and the last one of the day terminated there but the engine no doubt came from St Blazey  - a bit of timetable checking will reveal if it conveyed empty stock or if the stock remained at Lostwithiel (it ran as an empty auto train).  The first passenger train of the day on the Helston branch started from Helston and the last one of the day (actually a Mixed Train finished there.

[Hal Nail]

31 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

As the first passenger train (actually a Mixed Train) started from Liskeard then coaches were kept there as the engine came from Moorswater and went back there at night.  The first train between Lostwithiel and Fowey started from Lostwithiel and the last one of the day terminated there but the engine no doubt came from St Blazey  - a bit of timetable checking will reveal if it conveyed empty stock or if the stock remained at Lostwithiel (it ran as an empty auto train). 

 

Thanks, useful stuff.

 

The question merely stemmed from comments about strengthening coaches and putting together formations as required, which I know was the GWR way but thats not something you can do at the drop of a hat if the line is remote and especially if the stock usually sleeps there.

 

I had read that the Fowey loco chugged up to Lostwithiel from St Blazey every day rather than nipping straight down the direct route to Fowey and starting there. I had idly wondered if 1419 avoided getting a top feed or a repaint due to low mileage but actually when you tot that up every day for so many years it wasn't particularly low at all!

 

Anyway a digression but thanks all for all the info.

 

 

 

 

 

[kevinlms]

On 27/08/2023 at 00:44, The Stationmaster said:

When one of our through London (off the bra nch_ sets was formed with non-gangway coaches it was in the best of Western traditions - i.e a variety of stock including some BR suburban stock as well as ex GW 'home brewed' varieties

The LMS were never too fussed either. They swapped vehicles as required, as long as it had the correct number of seats.

The exception seems to be extra additional sets, on the lines such as the LT&SR, where an additional couple of sets appeared. But soon swapped around depending on maintenance requirements.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Thanks, useful stuff.

 

The question merely stemmed from comments about strengthening coaches and putting together formations as required, which I know was the GWR way but thats not something you can do at the drop of a hat if the line is remote and especially if the stock usually sleeps there.

 

I had read that the Fowey loco chugged up to Lostwithiel from St Blazey every day rather than nipping straight down the direct route to Fowey and starting there. I had idly wondered if 1419 avoided getting a top feed or a repaint due to low mileage but actually when you tot that up every day for so many years it wasn't particularly low at all!

 

Anyway a digression but thanks all for all the info.

 

 

 

 

 

As far as strengthening coaches are concerned things changed massively over the years,  For many years, even into the 1950s in some cases, it wasn't unusual for a branch line, or intermediate mainline station - particularly one where trains turned round, to hold the odd vehicle (or more) purely for strengthening purposes.  No doubt what was held where had very much developed in the light of experience but by the late '50s a different kinf d of less busy exerience was taking hold.

 

The big crack down on coaching stock fleet size came with Beeching although it was really railway. managers who were already realising that you simply could keep a lot of old coaches lying around for the occasional purpose of turning their wheels.  And the mass arrival of DMU really brought a lot of it to an end as there simply wasn't the money available to waste on buying spare vehicles or sets.

 

That sort of change, hastened very much by what happened during the Beeching era and even more so after he'd gone with fleets for long distance trains also being sqeezed and again that too was g hastened by coaching fleet modernisation with no cash to spend on spare vehicles.  In the late '70s/early '80s the WR still had a spare coaching stock set of Mk1 vehicles plus some others not allocated to sets.  By the mid 1980s BR, the whole of it, technically only had three spare sets of loco hauled coaches although there were still 'loose vehicles around as spares/maintenance cover in a number of places that could possibly be formed into a scratch set or two.  The arrival of HSTs had finally killed off the need for strengthening vehicles on most passenger train routes where DMUs hadn't already down the same

[The Johnster]

Difficult to get across to those who don’t remember it, but pre-Beeching carriage sidings (now long sold off for redevelopment or left to return to nature) had large areas of fans of sidings containing mostly older stock that probably only turned a wheel twice a year, August Bank Holiday Monday (today!) and xmas shopping excursions.  Even in the 70s we had several such rakes at Canton, only seeing occasional excursion or charter work between mystex outings.  
 

Tondu, a relatively small carriage depot, had a spare coach available for each diagram, as a feature of the group of branches it was the central hub for was a roughly 50% increase in traffic on Saturdays, a combination of shopping in the big cities (Bridgend & Maesteg), rugby, and Porthcawl daytrips in the summer.  The normal 2-coach trains were strengthened to three with strengthener all-thirds, including the autos; this network didn’t run to first class…

[KeithHC]

I seam to recall there where possibly a couple of sets based on the Oxted lines that had a mixture of coaches. These included  Bullieds and mk1 suburban even in at least one case with former 4 SUB augmented trailers.

 

Keith