Newbie advice required to correct painting over enthusiasm..

[RCP]

I might have jumped the gun a little and started painting prior to doing any research and due diligence. I blame it on the over enthusiasm..

 

One of the side projects I have on the go is redoing an old AirFix A30 auto coach. Whilst waiting for the dart castings kit to arrive along with some other bits ad bobs I thought I should just crack on with painting the inside of the coach as well as the ceiling. I've made the decision to stick with acrylics due to the small children running around so have acquired rail match paints for the purpose.  

 

I started by liberally painting the ceiling of the coach with black paint until it didn't let light through and then covered it with some white paint. I didn't put any primer on..

 

I set about colour matching the various shades and sections in the coach mixing acrylics to get the shade I wanted. I didn't put any primer on..

 

The paint on the ceiling is rough rather than a smooth finish and the same goes for the coach interior. I presume this is down to me not putting primer on.

 

Then having not learnt anything I proceeded to paint the new metal wheels with pickups with matt black acrylic by railmatch. Again doesn't look great. I didn't apply any primer.

 

• What's the best course of action here? scrub clean with a toothbrush and apply apply some primer?
• Would railmatch Universal Primer applied with a brush be ok or should I be airbrushing it on first? Should I be using a different primer?
• Will the paint flake if I leave it on?
• Can I just sand the ceiling smooth?

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by RCP

[33C]

Once you close it up, who's to know.....if you want to strip the roof/interior moulding, put them in a bag and spray with "Mr.Muscle" oven cleaner. Seal the bag, come back in an hour and remove. (If the paint starts lifting immediately, halve the time in the bag) Wash under the cold tap with an old toothbrush and repeat if necessary. Use the same on a cotton bud and rub in to areas that have excess paint. Beware the fumes as it sucks in oxygen!

[33C]

I have had a 99% success rate with this technique. Nicked the idea from the military modeller fraternity!

[Steamport Southport]

I wouldn't be putting Mr Muscle anywhere near a model I'm afraid. Far too caustic and even says do not use on plastic.

 

Try Dettol. Here's a video.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited September 6, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[SR71]

Vote here for Dettol but anything unknown can react badly, try it somewhere inconspicuous first. Inside of your roof, no one will ever see in detail. I wouldn't worry.

 

For the seats it looks like you probably just need another coat with a bit less paint on the brush. Getting a smooth surface brush painting acrylic I find to be near impossible. Overcoating too soon makes it a lot worse also. 15mins and acrylic seems dry but then applying a second coat cause it to lift and clump. It needs to dry for many hours before overcoating by brush

 

I've not used rail match for many years so can't comment on them specifically.

[RCP]

1 hour ago, SR71 said:

Vote here for Dettol but anything unknown can react badly, try it somewhere inconspicuous first. Inside of your roof, no one will ever see in detail. I wouldn't worry.

 

For the seats it looks like you probably just need another coat with a bit less paint on the brush. Getting a smooth surface brush painting acrylic I find to be near impossible. Overcoating too soon makes it a lot worse also. 15mins and acrylic seems dry but then applying a second coat cause it to lift and clump. It needs to dry for many hours before overcoating by brush

 

I've not used rail match for many years so can't comment on them specifically.

Do you have a good recommendation for paint suitable for priming coaches and the like? I have a second hand airbrush which I've been walking round with trepidation.

[DayReturn]

Dettol is great for lifting enamels and gets the bulk of Triang-type baked on paint off.  But having started, it’s a bit like landing a plane… the nearer the ground you are, the harder it gets.  Spend happy hours chiselling out the little flecks that cling in the corners.

 

 I’ve hardly used acrylic so I’d like to learn what works best.  I tried to strip a brass carriage with orange-peel/leatherette finish (enamel), with a Halfords acrylic primer, and although the top coat came up, the primer went sticky and I couldn’t recover the pristine metal surface.  It still remains thus in my Woodhams Yard to-do stash.

[DayReturn]

34 minutes ago, RCP said:

Do you have a good recommendation for paint suitable for priming coaches and the like? I have a second hand airbrush which I've been walking round with trepidation.

Halfords rattle can grey etch primer or red oxide.  Keep paint tin in the room where you work.  Not on a hot or humid day like today.  Shake for as long as your arm and your family can tolerate.  Practice on scrap.  When it’s consistently consistent, start spraying offstage from your model and run along it quickly, to off stage at the other side, nonstop.  1 x 25cm coach length in 1-2 seconds.  Spray about 20 to 30cm away.  Repeat once only in the other direction.  Stop there!  If you need more coverage, let that dry hard first, and never more than 2 fast rattle can sprays at a time.

 

Save the airbrush for the top coats.

 

Other opinions may differ!

 

And lungs first btw:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/385684936103?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=j6ffte2bqai&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=j4rmnIUNSH-&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
 

Edited September 6, 2023 by DayReturn
H&S

[DayReturn]

9 minutes ago, DayReturn said:

Halfords rattle can grey etch primer or red oxide.  Keep paint tin in the room where you work.  Not on a hot or humid day like today.  Shake for as long as your arm and your family can tolerate.  Practice on scrap.  When it’s consistently consistent, start spraying offstage from your model and run along it quickly, to off stage at the other side, nonstop.  1 x 25cm coach length in 1-2 seconds.  Spray about 20 to 30cm away.  Repeat once only in the other direction.  Stop there!  If you need more coverage, let that dry hard first, and never more than 2 fast rattle can sprays at a time.

 

Save the airbrush for the top coats.

 

Other opinions may differ!

 

And lungs first btw:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/385684936103?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=j6ffte2bqai&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=j4rmnIUNSH-&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
 

Work in progress, but genuine Halfords red primer underneath.  (Humbrol Railway Colours LMS red on top, yes the tin is 50+ years old.)

[brossard]

I always like to prime before putting on the topcoat.  Grey for "hard" colours like green, blue or black.  I find white can usually be sprayed on direct.  Avoid hand brushing light colours like white or yellow, I find it is streaky and usually need several coats.

Red Oxide for "warm" colours like brown and red.  Leave spray primer to cure overnight.

I also have brush on primer (grey and white) from Tamiya for small areas.

 

I too prefer acrylic but have a sizeable collection of enamels, mostly Humbrol.

 

Google pictures can be a good source of information so do check that out.

 

I have used oven cleaner in the past to remove paint, works but probably requires a few goes.

 

To get a sense of the interior of a Mk1 coach, here's Lionheart's in 0 gauge:

 

 

This is how it came out of the box apart from the people.  Note the moquette on the seats.  I did a search and came up with this:

 

https://www.camirafabrics.com/us/transport/fabrics?application=buscoach.application.seating

 

If you open each section, you will get fabric swatches.  These can be downloaded and stitched together.  I use Powerpoint but there may be other suitable apps.

 

I detailed this Dapol Autocoach:

 

 

I gave the partitions a scumbled teak look and added moquette.  This was done by printing onto self adhesive label paper.

 

John

[Enterprisingwestern]

16 minutes ago, DayReturn said:

Not on a hot or humid day like today.

 

Some of us would never get any painting done!!

 

Mike.

[RCP]

49 minutes ago, brossard said:

I always like to prime before putting on the topcoat.  Grey for "hard" colours like green, blue or black.  I find white can usually be sprayed on direct.  Avoid hand brushing light colours like white or yellow, I find it is streaky and usually need several coats.

Red Oxide for "warm" colours like brown and red.  Leave spray primer to cure overnight.

I also have brush on primer (grey and white) from Tamiya for small areas.

 

I too prefer acrylic but have a sizeable collection of enamels, mostly Humbrol.

 

Google pictures can be a good source of information so do check that out.

 

I have used oven cleaner in the past to remove paint, works but probably requires a few goes.

 

To get a sense of the interior of a Mk1 coach, here's Lionheart's in 0 gauge:

 

 

This is how it came out of the box apart from the people.  Note the moquette on the seats.  I did a search and came up with this:

 

https://www.camirafabrics.com/us/transport/fabrics?application=buscoach.application.seating

 

If you open each section, you will get fabric swatches.  These can be downloaded and stitched together.  I use Powerpoint but there may be other suitable apps.

 

I detailed this Dapol Autocoach:

 

 

I gave the partitions a scumbled teak look and added moquette.  This was done by printing onto self adhesive label paper.

 

John

This is brilliant work. I'll give some of these methods a go. Printing onto paper was something that I was going to do for the seat covers but looking your work I think it might be worth doing elsewhere.

[Torper]

Another vote for Halfords rattle can primer.  Always prime if possible.

 

Unlike Brossard. I much prefer enamels to acrylics (and I see that the OP has resorted to enamels, albeit 50 year old ones for his coach).  **Correction - that was DayReturn, not the OP**.   Acrylics are fine for small jobs - figures, coach and weathered wagon interiors, station furniture, and so on, but if a larger area is to be painted, than it's enamels every time.  Acrylics just dry too quickly and are unforgiving of mistakes, and they tend to clog up the airbrush nozzle and, if brush painting, will almost inevitably leave brush marks and an even greater mess when you try to brush them out.  You don't get these problems with good old enamels.  (I should add that it's a similar story in DIY - just try bush painting a door with a water-based gloss paint).

 

As for your coach interior, unless you're going to install lighting you'll see very little of it once you put the roof on.  If you want covers for your seats and partitions, try http://www.kitmaster.org.uk/pecocoachint.htm - you can print them out.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Torper
Correction

[DayReturn]

4 minutes ago, Torper said:

 (I see that the OP has resorted to enamels, albeit 50 year old ones for his coach).

It’s DR that has resorted to enamels, rest assured he is older (and thicker and less runnable too possibly) than his paint pots, whereas RCP aka OP, on demographic probabilities, is likely to be younger and more fluid than them.

[Torper]

11 minutes ago, DayReturn said:

It’s DR that has resorted to enamels, rest assured he is older (and thicker and less runnable too possibly) than his paint pots, whereas RCP aka OP, on demographic probabilities, is likely to be younger and more fluid than them.

Apoologies, DR, I was confused by the fact that both you and the OP displayed your work on a timber background.  Like you I have some very old Humbrol paints (some in the "tartan" tinlets) and they're still perfectly fine to use.

[brossard]

30 minutes ago, Torper said:

Another vote for Halfords rattle can primer.  Always prime if possible.

 

Unlike Brossard. I much prefer enamels to acrylics (and I see that the OP has resorted to enamels, albeit 50 year old ones for his coach).  **Correction - that was DayReturn, not the OP**.   Acrylics are fine for small jobs - figures, coach and weathered wagon interiors, station furniture, and so on, but if a larger area is to be painted, than it's enamels every time.  Acrylics just dry too quickly and are unforgiving of mistakes, and they tend to clog up the airbrush nozzle and, if brush painting, will almost inevitably leave brush marks and an even greater mess when you try to brush them out.  You don't get these problems with good old enamels.  (I should add that it's a similar story in DIY - just try bush painting a door with a water-based gloss paint).

 

As for your coach interior, unless you're going to install lighting you'll see very little of it once you put the roof on.  If you want covers for your seats and partitions, try http://www.kitmaster.org.uk/pecocoachint.htm - you can print them out.

 

Acrylics can clog the airbrush nozzle because of fast drying.  The fix to that is to use Tamiya Paint Retarder.  I have had no trouble when using that.  Vallejo have a similar product,of which I have a bottle but haven't used it yet.

 

I used Acrylic to brush paint this:

 

 

Kirk Gresley BG kit.  I used Humbrol acrylic.  You do have to be careful not to allow the paint to puddle in crevices.

 

I wouldn't attempt to brush paint enamel on this coach.

 

John

[NBL]

1 hour ago, Torper said:

Another vote for Halfords rattle can primer.  Always prime if possible.

 

Unlike Brossard. I much prefer enamels to acrylics (and I see that the OP has resorted to enamels, albeit 50 year old ones for his coach).  **Correction - that was DayReturn, not the OP**.   Acrylics are fine for small jobs - figures, coach and weathered wagon interiors, station furniture, and so on, but if a larger area is to be painted, than it's enamels every time.  Acrylics just dry too quickly and are unforgiving of mistakes, and they tend to clog up the airbrush nozzle and, if brush painting, will almost inevitably leave brush marks and an even greater mess when you try to brush them out.  You don't get these problems with good old enamels.  (I should add that it's a similar story in DIY - just try bush painting a door with a water-based gloss paint).

 

As for your coach interior, unless you're going to install lighting you'll see very little of it once you put the roof on.  If you want covers for your seats and partitions, try http://www.kitmaster.org.uk/pecocoachint.htm - you can print them out.

I used to detest acrylic paints until I learned how to use and apply them, now I find I get much better results than I did with enamels.

 

A bit of paint retarder works wonders when spraying, and thinning slightly with water gives a great, almost mirror smooth application when brushing.

 

Tamiya acrylics thin beautifully with IPA.

 

I only use enamels as a last resort these days.

[RCP]

13 hours ago, Torper said:

Another vote for Halfords rattle can primer.  Always prime if possible.

 

Unlike Brossard. I much prefer enamels to acrylics (and I see that the OP has resorted to enamels, albeit 50 year old ones for his coach).  **Correction - that was DayReturn, not the OP**.   Acrylics are fine for small jobs - figures, coach and weathered wagon interiors, station furniture, and so on, but if a larger area is to be painted, than it's enamels every time.  Acrylics just dry too quickly and are unforgiving of mistakes, and they tend to clog up the airbrush nozzle and, if brush painting, will almost inevitably leave brush marks and an even greater mess when you try to brush them out.  You don't get these problems with good old enamels.  (I should add that it's a similar story in DIY - just try bush painting a door with a water-based gloss paint).

 

As for your coach interior, unless you're going to install lighting you'll see very little of it once you put the roof on.  If you want covers for your seats and partitions, try http://www.kitmaster.org.uk/pecocoachint.htm - you can print them out.

I’m planning on lighting the coach and having a working lamp red/white lamp on the drivers end. Still deliberating about how best to do this with regards switching, but I’m leaning towards bridge rectifiers on each bogie and two reed switches on the ceiling switching two latching relays for on/off and change of colour. I wanted the lamp to change direction automatically but couldn’t come up with a workable solution so magnet on the end of a stick it is.

Edited September 7, 2023 by RCP
Spelling

[RCP]

12 hours ago, NBL said:

I used to detest acrylic paints until I learned how to use and apply them, now I find I get much better results than I did with enamels.

 

A bit of paint retarder works wonders when spraying, and thinning slightly with water gives a great, almost mirror smooth application when brushing.

 

Tamiya acrylics thin beautifully with IPA.

 

I only use enamels as a last resort these days.

This is good to know. Am I right in thinking that you are using a combination of paint retarder and ipa mixed in with your paint? Having cleaned the underside of the coach roof I’ll keep trying on that. 

[NBL]

2 hours ago, RCP said:

This is good to know. Am I right in thinking that you are using a combination of paint retarder and ipa mixed in with your paint? Having cleaned the underside of the coach roof I’ll keep trying on that. 

No, just paint retarder when spraying, water when brushing

 

I use IPA when thinning Tamiya paint for both brushing and spraying

 

Have a look at Boomer Diorama on YouTube, I've learned a shed load about paint from his channel

[DayReturn]

On 06/09/2023 at 14:51, DayReturn said:

….   Keep paint tin in the room where you work.  Not on a hot or humid day like today.  Shake for as long as your arm and your family can tolerate. …

 

I had a look again at Ian Rathbone’s book (always inspiring anyway), and noted his rattle can advice is different, viz. he says get everything warm, including putting the tin in a jug of hand hot water before starting.  He’s advising using the warmth to get the spray paint as runny as possible so that it spreads evenly.  I was presuming that warmer air will cause the paint to dry quicker including in flight.  If it does dry too much in flight it will cause orange peel.  He notes that a cold room will have more moisture in the air supply which will spoil the finish.   Anyway his book is… and he has been known to feature in certain exhibition events.

[RCP]

8 hours ago, DayReturn said:

I had a look again at Ian Rathbone’s book (always inspiring anyway), and noted his rattle can advice is different, viz. he says get everything warm, including putting the tin in a jug of hand hot water before starting.  He’s advising using the warmth to get the spray paint as runny as possible so that it spreads evenly.  I was presuming that warmer air will cause the paint to dry quicker including in flight.  If it does dry too much in flight it will cause orange peel.  He notes that a cold room will have more moisture in the air supply which will spoil the finish.   Anyway his book is… and he has been known to feature in certain exhibition events.

Ordered thank you.

[DayReturn]

3 hours ago, RCP said:

Ordered thank you.

Good.  Be inspired, not dismayed!  Also Geoff Haynes’ book and Martin Welch’s too.  Practice, practice and practice.  Have half a dozen similar models in progress concurrently, so when you complete a stage on one, you can move on to the next, after a stretch and tea break.  Get an Optivisor cheap copy for £20, to see more closely what’s going on.  
 

The most frustrating aspect of the process is when you go back to the first model in the batch and see how poor it is compared with your most recent one.  You won’t be content until you strip it down and do it again.  (Most of my current scruffy work arises from trying to over-paint and especially, re-line, on top of previous attempts.)

[brossard]

Rathbone paints museum quality models (but I don't believe he actually builds them) so they need to be the very best.  We mere mortals paint our models to the best standard we can and we learn with doing.  It never hurts to know what the highest bar is so we can strive to get there. 

 

I rely on weathering to hide my howlers.

 

John

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, DayReturn said:

The most frustrating aspect of the process

For me that's when you had a great finish but the varnish goes on badly.

 

Mind you I painted my front door the other day and that takes frustration to a whole new level.