What were the Big 4 and subsequently BR's policy on employees taking photographs of their trains?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I seem to recall that the Isle of Man Railways were very anti-photographers in the 1950s/60s. Even Ivo Peters had a problem, until he had a meeting with the managing director.

[Michael Hodgson]

I understood the Underground to have had a general ban on photography (by the public, presumably their own official photography would be acceptable) but I think that was primarily concern regarding motormen being blinded by flash as the train was pulling into a platform.

[Nearholmer]

Not really.

 

This is a snip from the long bit about filming and photography on the website, the rest being about facilities for commercial activity:

 

“Private photographers/filming travelling through the station

We get many requests from individuals like train enthusiasts, photographers and customers ‘passing through’ a station who may want to take photographs or film for their own personal use. We agree that this is acceptable, at the station’s discretion, as long as additional camera equipment (including flash and tripods) is not used.

However, images clearly promoting the London Underground brand/logos must not be published or broadcast without our permission ahead of time. Also, people filming or taking photographs for their own purposes on TfL's network are responsible for ensuring they comply with the requirements of privacy and data protection legislation.

 

For a large part of my 27 years working on the underground, although I was an engineer I also trained and retainined competence as a station assistant, to help out during major events, and at no time were we instructed that pohotography by private individuals should be prevented, unless they were using flash, or were causing obstruction, or danger to themselves or others, and it is commonplace for tourists to take photos, and phone videos; we even used to get asked to pose with families for a photo!

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Hibelroad]

Could the London Underground ban also be due to terrorism concerns i.e photos used for surveillance and planning purposes? Terrorism in one form or another has existed for many year and must be a concern on the railways. I once read somewhere that men were arrested after being overheard in a pub as they planned to blow up Marple Wharf signal box, this was at the time of the Irish uprising (about 1920) so it’s been going on for a long time. 

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

I seem to recall that the Isle of Man Railways were very anti-photographers in the 1950s/60s.

They were obviously taking security precautions in advance of declaring war.

 

RichardT

 

RichardT 

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

However, images clearly promoting the London Underground brand/logos must not be published or broadcast without our permission ahead of time.

This is the key.  TfL are very protective of their trademarks, especially as many people think - wrongly - that things like the bullseye (“roundel” since the late 60s) and the Johnston letterform are now in the public domain and so use them for pub signs, book and record covers etc etc without asking permission.

 

As with a lot of the earlier examples cited, it’s the difference between taking a photo for yourself, and having it published/using it for commercial purposes.

 

If it was anything to do with security it would be enforced with a lot more stringent methods than “disapproval” and “frowning upon it”!

 

RichardT

Edited September 8, 2023 by RichardT

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Hibelroad said:

Could the London Underground ban

As I pointed out above: there isn’t a ban on photography for personal use.

[Wickham Green too]

Some stations seem to have a no photos "security" policy ....... I've given up even taking a quick snap at East Croydon. ( though, of course there are mobile 'phones everywhere )

[big jim]

9 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Some stations seem to have a no photos "security" policy ....... I've given up even taking a quick snap at East Croydon. ( though, of course there are mobile 'phones everywhere )

Whilst off duty a while back I got involved in a ‘discussion’ with a security man in Chester who was demanding a young lad delete all his pics from his camera just as I happened to walk past them, I told him not to as he had no authority to make him do so, cue half a dozen other security men over asking me to leave as it wasn’t my business, which it wasn’t but the poor lad looked scared and was about to delete his pics, I was threatened with the police which I said yeah ok send them over, they never appeared 

 

I went to the station managers office with the security guys and lad, “alright jim, how are you….problems?’ Explained what was going on and the young lad was told nicely by the station supervisor that in future he just needed to make himself known to staff (sign in) and he would be ok to keep his pics from that day

 

Afterward I emailed TFW (and it was logged),  I seem to remember they had the same photography policy as network rail and I advised them they needed to update their security staff on the current standard 

[Michael Hodgson]

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/communities/railway-enthusiasts/guidelines-for-taking-photos-at-stations/

[Wickham Green too]

"When you arrive at a station, please let the staff at the Network Rail Reception Desk know that you are there." : my last attempt at photography at EC was of the train I'd just stepped off so any attempt at visiting the Reception Desk would have been a waste of time ........ as it was the train was held at signals for a couple of minutes by which time I'd been told not to take pictures by a large security guy. I turned to leave and half way up the footbridge steps realised that the train was on its way ........ any thoughts of a quick snap were thwarted by another security guy who had clearly been made aware of my presence. ☹️

[Nearholmer]

If be very interested to understand whether NR’s policy would withstand a test at law. 

[OnTheBranchline]

Just now, Nearholmer said:

If be very interested to understand whether NR’s policy would withstand a test at law. 

You go first 😉

[RichardT]

17 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

by which time I'd been told not to take pictures by a large security guy.

I remember reading a news article in a “Railway Modeller” back issue from the early 1960s, celebrating the fact that BR had just clarified that permission was no longer needed for non-commercial photography on any part of BRB property that was normally open to the public.  

After 9/11 the US railway press was very active in advising enthusiasts of their rights to take train photos in the face of over-zealous law enforcers, and IIRC got the railroads to acknowledge that alert enthusiasts could help them in keeping an eye out for genuinely suspicious or dangerous activity.  But here in crappy semi-privatised 2023 Britain we’re back to this b*ll*cks.  
 

The Network Rail guidelines referenced above (note GUIDELINES not rules) are classic corporate backside covering not intended ever to be applied to all cases but giving a fig leaf to cover NR removing people causing a real short-term operational nuisance e.g. by wearing hi-vis or encroaching on platform ends.  The meathead civilians in plastic pretend policeman outfits objecting to you taking a photo in a publicly-owned station should be dealt with by requesting that they call a real policeman over.  I’m sure BTP will think that talking to railway enthusiast photographers is a good use of their time.

 

RichardT

Edited September 8, 2023 by RichardT

[Compound2632]

It's been long understood that a prohibition against photographing trains or railway infrastructure is one of the tell-tale indicators of despotic or totalitarian government, e.g. communist eastern Europe.  

Edited September 8, 2023 by Compound2632

[OnTheBranchline]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

It's been long understood that a prohibition against photographing trains or railway infrastructure is one of the tell-tale indicators of despotic or totalitarian government, e.g. communist eastern Europe.  

@The Stationmastergot in trouble for this in Poland I seem to remember?

[Nearholmer]

54 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

You go first 😉

 

I’m almost tempted.
 

I certainly have never complied with it, but not with intent to test the law, or because I’m an awkward so and so, simply because I didn’t know it existed, and because I’m rock solid certain that there is no law against taking photos on railway stations, or of trains, or of railway infrastructure from public places, and no law requiring anyone to notify an intent to do so before taking photos.

 

The Railway Bylaws exist to deal with real problems on the railways that general law might not, and if a person taking photos was doing so in a way that created an obstruction, or a danger they could be dealt with using those, but if a person is taking photos without causing an obstruction or a danger, the only offence that might come close is “loitering”, and I believe the legal definition and tests around that are such that it wouldn’t apply.

 

TBH, I think that if there is a problem around this (I’ve never experience one), it isn’t NR, although the guidance to call at the NR reception desk is a bit hollow given that most stations don’t have one, it is the ill-briefed or making it up as they go along security guards.

 

PS: singing on the railway to the annoyance of others is an offence under the bylaws, so be careful not to do that.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

PS: singing on the railway to the annoyance of others is an offence under the bylaws, so be careful not to do that.

 

"To the annoyance of others" is the key phrase. My son's band rehearsal (not at our house) was cut short last night because the neighbours complained. I said they obviously weren't good enough.

[Colin_McLeod]

I can't speak for the current scene but in my time in Northern Ireland Railways (1976-1992) there were no restrictions on staff taking  photographs. In fact it was encouraged.

[Rivercider]

12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

I

 

The Railway Bylaws exist to deal with real problems on the railways that general law might not, and if a person taking photos was doing so in a way that created an obstruction, or a danger they could be dealt with using those, but if a person is taking photos without causing an obstruction or a danger, the only offence that might come close is “loitering”, and I believe the legal definition and tests around that are such that it wouldn’t apply.

 

A couple of years ago I was approached by the platform supervisor at Exeter St Davids who asked what I was doing. While waiting for a train to the newly re-opened Okehampton station I had walked to the end of the platform near Red Cow Crossing. I was going to try to recreate a similar view to pictures I had taken there in the 1980s, and I was careful not to pass any signs or barriers. When I explained what I was doing he was quite happy.

 

cheers

[Wheatley]

16 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

If be very interested to understand whether NR’s policy would withstand a test at law. 

We've done this before, several times. 

 

Railway stations are public places insofar as the public are invited to be there for the purpose(s) which the owner (NR) or occupier (TOC) invites them to be there. You as a private individual therefore have no reasobable expectation of privacy in a public place so no member of the public can object you taking photos which they might be in, provided the camera isnt up your skirt or somewhere else where a specific exemption applies. 

 

However, whilst they are public places, they are also private property. If the owner/occupier decides that the purpose for which you are invited to be there does not include photography then you have no right to take photographs. They should make this clear at the point of entry, see concert venues and some museums for example. 

 

Most TOCs follow Network Rail's photography policy which is essentially "Don't be a prat, and ask us first if you're doing it for commercial purposes". They can write their own if they wish, but I'm not aware of any who have. 

 

Most TOC station staff should know their photography policy or at least know where to find it. However, they should also know their anti-terrorism policy ( "beware hostile reconnaissance") and their suicide prevention policy ("identify and engage/distract." ) so expect to be approached. 

 

Contracted security and revenue protection staff - not so much maybe. 

 

If you believe you have been unfairly challenged then explain your position politely. If necessary walk away and take it up with the TOC in writing afterwards.

 

The second you get aggressive or refuse a reasonable (albeit possibly incorrect) request to leave the premises you potentially  commit one of several byelaw offences or trespass which, on the railway, is a criminal rather than civil offence. 

[Wickham Green too]

34 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

... They should make this clear at the point of entry, ...

Which - 50% of the time - is at the door of a train !

[melmerby]

22 hours ago, RichardT said:

many people think - wrongly - that things like the bullseye (“roundel”

I have some photos of the diamond shaped ones at Moorgate.

[Wheatley]

1 minute ago, Wickham Green too said:

Which - 50% of the time - is at the door of a train !

I'm not aware of any TOC which has 'No photography' signs on its trains. Or indeed any TOC which has a 'No photography' rule. 

[The Stationmaster]

Things have changed over the years butI was never aware of being told not to take photos although obviously if you are an employee taking photos you do so within the Rules (i.e the Rule Book safety rules and in accordance with an y ciurrent policy.

 

The biggest problem I found was finding the time/opportunity to take photos.  In. one of my jobs I took a camera to work alm0st every day so could get a photo like this one taken on a Saturday from part way up one of those lighting towers (the only person around in authority who could legitimately challenge me was - me).  

 

 

 

 

When I had Lineside Photographic Permit covering the entire WR - I was responsible for my own safety by complying with all relevant Rules, could photograph whatever I liked but could only publish for gain with the PRO's permission.   On one much  earlier occasion I did allow an advertising agency to use one of my photos but the location was virtually unrecognisable because of the way the image was presented and it was in any case advertising the product of a company which supplied BR although none of their products were even in, let alone could be seen in, the image.

 

Nowdays there are rules for photography on NR and they're easy to follow and should be followed as there are some jobsworth security types about who like throwing their weight around and don't understand what you are photographing (as Jim has already mentioned)

 

I suspect Soole might well have rubbed someone up the wrong way and in consequence was given the 'gypsy\s warning' as it was known.  Numerous other people in his position have over the years taken probably hundreds, maybe thousands, of photos.  In one year it was known that I was taking lots of photos i the firm's time - like the one above - but I still got promoted during the following year and carried on to take more photos elsewhere.   But if, as a trainee, you got it wrong and rubbed someone up the wrong way the outcome could be far worse than being told not to take photos - one I knew was put into apermanent night turn job at Smithfield after upsetting a very senior personage while others were shoved well out of the line and steps to greater glory etc.

 

Finallyeven the wider railway industry can sometimes give opportunities for taking photos while you are at work.  The one below - taken in an obvious (to most I expect) location - was taken while I was leading a training course and we were having a 'for experience' ride around the Dungeness Loop.  Again the only person immediately present with the necessary authority to stop me taking photos in the company's time was - me. (And yes I also took photos of the trainees to show their involvement in the course)