Through trains

[31A]

2 hours ago, coronach said:

In the ‘good old days’ when the enquiry office at Birmingham New Street included a European desk, a Polish gentleman asked for information about travel to Warsaw and was surprised to hear that the next train was at 12:45 in platform 5. Of course the person behind the desk misheard ‘Walsall!’  

One of my colleagues on the Continental counter at Cambridge Travel Centre once made the opposite mistake and went into all the details of Harwich-Hoek boat cabins, Berlin sleeping cars etc etc, then the guy said "But I only want to go to Walsall!"

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Of course back in the day, summer Saturdays only holiday through trains were a whole new ball game...

Edited September 14, 2023 by Peter Kazmierczak

[AMJ]

Many of the through services as mentioned by others included multiple departure and destinations as they train was joined or split during the journey with the main trunk having the full consist.  Some of these could be just a couple of vehicles.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

It's interesting to ponder on the different policies of the Big Four as regards through trains/carriages. Just thinking of one small area - South/Central Devon. The SR provided through portions to almost every branch and twig, whereas the GWR were much less generous - no through carriages to Brixham, Moretonhampstead, Ashburton, Tiverton, Hemyock etc...

[Oldddudders]

44 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

It's interesting to ponder on the different policies of the Big Four as regards through trains/carriages. Just thinking of one small area - South/Central Devon. The SR provided through portions to almost every branch and twig

Indeed, the Winter ACE left Waterloo with a lot of BCKs, one each for several destinations in Devon and Cornwall. Summer services were less multi-destination, and the ACE ran in more than one section to accommodate holiday destination demand. 

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, 31A said:

One of my colleagues on the Continental counter at Cambridge Travel Centre once made the opposite mistake and went into all the details of Harwich-Hoek boat cabins, Berlin sleeping cars etc etc, then the guy said "But I only want to go to Walsall!"

Understandable.  Why would anybody want to go to Walsall ?

[keefer]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Indeed, the Winter ACE left Waterloo with a lot of BCKs, one each for several destinations in Devon and Cornwall. Summer services were less multi-destination, and the ACE ran in more than one section to accommodate holiday destination demand. 

I think the example I read about was something like 13 BCKs in a 15 or 16 coach train!

A (relatively) recent through service was added by ScotRail, although it goes East-West and not to an English destination. After various electrification schemes were completed, a service from North Berwick-Helensburgh was introduced using 25kV EMUs.

As with other 'classic' through trains, end-to-end on one train is possible but at a considerable time penalty, particularly as this example seems to be the amalgamation of several (slow) stopping services.

IIRC the middle, Edinburgh-Glasgow section is the slow route via Shotts which is much slower than the ScotRail Express into Glasgow Queen St.

Edited September 14, 2023 by keefer

[hexagon789]

29 minutes ago, keefer said:

I think the example I read about was something like 13 BCKs in a 15 or 16 coach train!

A (relatively) recent through service was added by ScotRail, although it goes East-West and not to an English destination. After various electrification schemes were completed, a service from North Berwick-Helensburgh was introduced using 25kV EMUs.

As with other 'classic' through trains, end-to-end on one train is possible but at a considerable time penalty, particularly as this example seems to be the amalgamation of several (slow) stopping services.

IIRC the middle, Edinburgh-Glasgow section is the slow route via Shotts which is much slower than the ScotRail Express into Glasgow Queen St.

When did ScotRail ever operate North Berwick to Helensburgh?

 

The 334s are not cleared past Waverley for one.

 

If you'd said North Berwick to Ayr, then I wouldn't have objected... (that did run until COVID, plus a few just to/from Edinburgh).

 

I think you may have misinterpreted a timetable or something, sorry.

[hexagon789]

On 12/09/2023 at 10:42, AMJ said:

Following on from privatisation many if not all of the longer distance through train services seem to have been cut back to shorter journeys if they still exist.

 

Examples include the St Pancras to Glasgow trains that used the Midland and S&C.  By the 80's these change to Nottingham - Glasgow and eventually just Leeds - Carlisle.

A few of the trans-Pennine used to go through to the north Wales coast at Llandudno and we used to be able to remember the station order as per the announcement prior to departure from Leeds.

 

There were boat trains that ran down the WCML through Kensington Olympia before heading to the channel ports.  Managed to get one of these so that I had loco haulage to Dover in 88.

 

One service that I used to like was the Manchester - Harwich boat train.  Often in the 80's it would have a celebrity loco.  I saw it with the GWR 47's in Sheffield.

 

Other than the services run by cross country most of these seem to have gone by the wayside as they probably tread upon too many operators toes.

All those you've mentioned went under BR, some around Sprinterisation or earlier.

[hexagon789]

On 12/09/2023 at 20:26, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I'm not sure of the dates, but privatisation might have been responsible for Devon and Cornwall West Coast trains becoming Manchester only, rather than going through to Scotland. Most of the direct trains mentioned by the OP had long gone by the time of privatisation.

That was the failure of Operation Princess and consequent DfT ordered XC retrenchment in 2003 and again in 2008.

[keefer]

5 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

When did ScotRail ever operate North Berwick to Helensburgh?

 

The 334s are not cleared past Waverley for one.

 

If you'd said North Berwick to Ayr, then I wouldn't have objected... (that did run until COVID, plus a few just to/from Edinburgh).

 

I think you may have misinterpreted a timetable or something, sorry.

Apologies I was sure I'd read that somewhere, must've been when the Waverley-Helensburgh trains started.

Also it's not via Shotts (my error) but via Bathgate & Airdrie.

[coronach]

Privatisation resulted in the OFCATs raid trains such as Manchester to Waterloo via the Marches line and South Wales. I’ve also travelled in a London Paddington to Manchester Piccadilly train. How about Birmingham to Ramsgate ( behind a Deltic)

Edited September 14, 2023 by coronach

[hexagon789]

58 minutes ago, keefer said:

Apologies I was sure I'd read that somewhere, must've been when the Waverley-Helensburgh trains started.

Also it's not via Shotts (my error) but via Bathgate & Airdrie.

No need to apologise, and I hadn't noticed the second bit ;)

 

To add to the 'interesting' through services in Scotland; back in early privatisation NatEx ScotRail ran some interesting through workings:

 

Edinburgh to Wick

 

Glasgow to Kyle of Lochalsh 

 

Kyle to Edinburgh 

 

Wick to Aberdeen 

 

Aberdeen to Kyle

 

Edinburgh to Aberdeen via Inverness 

 

Of course these all reversed at Inverness and were just joining workings to save a unit, but I suppose handy for obviating the need to change trains.

 

(Today there is the early morning Inverness to Edinburgh via Aberdeen and afternoon Glasgow to Inverness via Aberdeen; run more for operational reasons.)

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, coronach said:

Privatisation resulted in the OFCATs raid trains such as Manchester to Waterloo via the Marches line and South Wales. I’ve also travelled in a London Paddington to Manchester Piccadilly train. How about Birmingham to Ramsgate ( behind a Deltic)

Can’t remember any via the matches & south wales

 

the others were standard cross country services in the 1990s before and after privatisation, 47+7 into Padd etc

 

ORCATS raids included Rochdale to Euston in a 2 car 158

 

the whole Virgin rail empire was based on ORCATS raid (number of seats per day between destinations)

 

 

 

[Matt37268]

22 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Any Cambridge academic who fancied a dirty weekend !

They just go to Hunstanton for that! 

[Matt37268]

16 hours ago, coronach said:

In the ‘good old days’ when the enquiry office at Birmingham New Street included a European desk, a Polish gentleman asked for information about travel to Warsaw and was surprised to hear that the next train was at 12:45 in platform 5. Of course the person behind the desk misheard ‘Walsall!’  

Going OT but Pete Waterman’s a Walsall Fan, his daughters were asked at school why their Dad supported a team from Poland 😂

[Matt37268]

2 hours ago, coronach said:

How about Birmingham to Ramsgate ( behind a Deltic)

I have a feeling the return from Ramsgate in 98/99 may have gone on to Lime Street. 😵‍💫
I seem to recall that under Central Trains days there were still some anomalies, Hagley to Stourbridge Junction on a Worcester to Stanstead Airport 170 anyone? 
 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Matt37268

[keefer]

16 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

No need to apologise, and I hadn't noticed the second bit ;)

 

To add to the 'interesting' through services in Scotland; back in early privatisation NatEx ScotRail ran some interesting through workings:

 

Edinburgh to Wick

 

Glasgow to Kyle of Lochalsh 

 

Kyle to Edinburgh 

 

Wick to Aberdeen 

 

Aberdeen to Kyle

 

Edinburgh to Aberdeen via Inverness 

 

Of course these all reversed at Inverness and were just joining workings to save a unit, but I suppose handy for obviating the need to change trains.

 

(Today there is the early morning Inverness to Edinburgh via Aberdeen and afternoon Glasgow to Inverness via Aberdeen; run more for operational reasons.)

Don't know if it still runs but there used to be a single weekday direct service from Markinch to Queen St. (via Winchburgh and Falkirk Grahamston). 

Left Markinch at around 7am with the return from Queen St. around 5-5.30pm.

Maybe the last remnant of the Fife Coast-Glasgow services which ended in the '60s?🙂

I meant to ask, any particular reason the 334s weren't cleared to N. Berwick? Or is it just that they weren't considered?

[hexagon789]

42 minutes ago, keefer said:

Don't know if it still runs but there used to be a single weekday direct service from Markinch to Queen St. (via Winchburgh and Falkirk Grahamston). 

Left Markinch at around 7am with the return from Queen St. around 5-5.30pm.

The Markinch - GLQ/GLQ - Kirkcaldy were removed with the introduction of the 'Fit for the Future' timetable, having been a weekday feature at least since Sprinterisation.

 

They were unusual in omitting Criy while still serving Bishopbriggs and Lenzie both ways.

 

43 minutes ago, keefer said:

Maybe the last remnant of the Fife Coast-Glasgow services which ended in the '60s?

Originally I believe it was to get a 156 over to Fife to work some local services there, it was nevertheless a 170 working for many years before withdrawal.

 

44 minutes ago, keefer said:

I meant to ask, any particular reason the 334s weren't cleared to N. Berwick? Or is it just that they weren't considered?

It's in passenger service and relates to the method of dispatch. (334s use cab mounted DOO cameras, while the North Berwick/Dunbar services are still guard dispatch.)

[caradoc]

On 13/09/2023 at 16:47, KingEdwardII said:

Yes, but you would not dream of using that as part of a journey to get to Harwich!

 

But, especially since the advent of low-cost airlines, how many people actually want to go from Liverpool to Harwich - Precious few I would think!

 

[caradoc]

On 14/09/2023 at 09:22, 31A said:

One of my colleagues on the Continental counter at Cambridge Travel Centre once made the opposite mistake and went into all the details of Harwich-Hoek boat cabins, Berlin sleeping cars etc etc, then the guy said "But I only want to go to Walsall!"

 

And at our former workplace of Reading B.O. a guy one day wanted to go to Tavistock; He was aghast at how long it would take (including a bus from Plymouth) and the fare; It turned out he actually wanted Tavistock Place in London!

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 12/09/2023 at 21:18, coronach said:

London to Stranraer patronage was significantly reduced by the withdrawal of soldiers from NI and the moving of the ferry terminal away from Stranraer Harbour

 

The Clansman day train to Inverness was replaced by a faster service on the ECML

 

The boat train to Harwich was swept up in the changes when Regional Railways was set up - more frequent short trains. 
 

Although these seemingly long standing traditional services have gone, we now have frequent services between the north west and Scotland that connect with the Inter7City HSTs to the North East. 
 

Interesting to recall that what is now the Caledonian Sleeper, prior to 1974, departed London KX and travelled to Glasgow QSt via York and Newcastle, probably as several separate services. There are no sleeper services from York now

There still is what amounts to a boat train from Liverpool St to Harwich International (where it terminates) to connect with the night boat to the Hook.  The morning train which provides a connection out of the arriving night boat starts from Harwich Town and runs through to Liverpool St.  

 

Open to correction but I  think there has always been a through train from London connecting into the night sailing

[KingEdwardII]

On 15/09/2023 at 17:23, caradoc said:

since the advent of low-cost airlines

Indeed - the Harwich - Hook of Holland ferry takes more than 8 hours, by which time a plane could have whisked you clean out of Europe!

[adb968008]

On 13/09/2023 at 16:38, black and decker boy said:

I doubt we can solely blame privatisation nor the owning groups - minimum service levels for each franchise were defined as part of the process (which typically matched what the BR shadow franchises were running) so if these services aren’t running

then they weren’t on those protected lists and quite probably binned by BR anyway in the early 1990s.

 

the transport sector evolved rapidly in the early 90s with the arrival low cost airlines and the channel tunnel and then low cost coaches such as megabus.

Virgin XC had a good go at shrinking its network…

 

thats How Brighton to Manchester turned into Watford to East Croydon, and is shrinking more at that. Ealing to Wandsworth Road bus service was a result of variations of Folkestone, Dover, Ramsgate etc being cut.

XC also cut Weymouth.

 

Theres some legacy still in the system..

 

XTB is Three Bridges Voyager depot in Realtime trains.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:XTB/2023-09-19/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
 

should be in the “Ghosts in the machine thread” as no voyager has been there in my recent memory… not even the Guildford service runs anymore, it was at best a “parliamentary service” for the last decade.. 1 a day, 6am out 10pm back

This active link on XC is another ghost in the machine…

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/4027/crosscountry-route-map.pdf

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by adb968008

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Virgin XC had a good go at shrinking its network…

 

thats How Brighton to Manchester turned into Watford to East Croydon, and is shrinking more at that. Ealing to Wandsworth Road bus service was a result of variations of Folkestone, Dover, Ramsgate etc being cut.

XC also cut Weymouth.

 

Theres some legacy still in the system..

 

XTB is Three Bridges Voyager depot in Realtime trains.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:XTB/2023-09-19/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
 

should be in the “Ghosts in the machine thread” as no voyager has been there in my recent memory… not even the Guildford service runs anymore, it was at best a “parliamentary service” for the last decade.. 1 a day, 6am out 10pm back

This active link on XC is another ghost in the machine…

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/4027/crosscountry-route-map.pdf

 

 

 

 

It appears the loss of services to the south coast / Brighton was a DfT inspired change as part of the franchise tender when it moved from Virgin XC to Arriva in 2007/08.

 

it appears that Virgin in the early 2000s under the Operation Princess timetable rebuild (ie introducing voyagers) increased the service frequency from Brighton to Manchester).

 

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/3767204.anger-as-direct-rail-service-to-brighton-is-cut/