Baseboard acoustics

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Just wondering if anyone has any experience of using 3mm neoprene acoustic underlay as a baseboard  covering in an attempt to reduce the drumming of a traditional ply baseboard with a round roundy layout.

In my previous stalled attempts I was about to use 3mm neoprene as researched many years ago to help reduce running noise but I am not having to pull up the entire layout proline to rebuilding (long story). 

Whilst considering my next move and being a little lazy, I started to think instead of removing all the neoprene  layer on the base board, as the removal of baseboard fixing screws destroys a lot of it. Flip the boards over and have the neoprene on the bottom, effectively creating a sound deadening barrier between all supports on the floor and the top baseboards. Has anyone tried this topsy-turvy method?

Any thoughts?

 

[Mallard60022]

Maybe just use strips under the track and wide enough to receive the Ballast. Use Cork Ballast as well?

It's the Stone Ballast glued and in contact with the Ply that creates the noise.

That Neoprene is expensive, so you could use a Floor Tile Foam Underlay or  Corrugated Card.

Phil

[brossard]

For my layout, which I started in 2017, I used Woodland Scenics closed cell foam.  It comes in beveled strips and sheets.  I glued it to the board with Aileen's Tacky Glue (looks like PVA but dries rubbery).  I also glued the track to the foam using the Tacky Glue.  I haven't done any noise tests and my layout is a BLT where stock moves pretty slowly.  For ballast I used Woodland Scenics Fine with dilute PVA reasoning that the foam and Tacky Glue have acoustically isolated the track from the board.

 

 

 

Here's a video of my layout taken back in August.  I can't hear any track noise but then the loco sound may be masking it.

 

 

The club, for their extremely large new layout has used what looks like 3mm foam that could be what you are talking about.  The foam has a minimum buy.

 

Here's a pic showing the foam:

 

 

Having reread your post, I might have missed your point.

 

John

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

28 minutes ago, brossard said:

For my layout, which I started in 2017, I used Woodland Scenics closed cell foam.  It comes in beveled strips and sheets.  I glued it to the board with Aileen's Tacky Glue (looks like PVA but dries rubbery).  I also glued the track to the foam using the Tacky Glue.  I haven't done any noise tests and my layout is a BLT where stock moves pretty slowly.  For ballast I used Woodland Scenics Fine with dilute PVA reasoning that the foam and Tacky Glue have acoustically isolated the track from the board.

 

 

Could the Tacky Glue also be used for ballasting?

I have long been dissatisfied with PVA for ballast because it sets rock hard & transmits sound. When applied to a cork base, it soaks right into the cork & any sound insulation properties provided by the cork are lost.

I have tried Copydex & find it a huge improvement over PVA for several reasons but it also has its drawbacks so I do not consider it perfect & am open to suggestions for a better alternative.

[Ben Alder]

I laid the Carrs 5mm foam on the baseboard with Copydex and then used Tracklay for the track itself. Results in a silent smooth running P Way.

 

https://www.tracklay.co.uk/product/oo-gauge-underlay-5m

[brossard]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

 

Could the Tacky Glue also be used for ballasting?

I have long been dissatisfied with PVA for ballast because it sets rock hard & transmits sound. When applied to a cork base, it soaks right into the cork & any sound insulation properties provided by the cork are lost.

I have tried Copydex & find it a huge improvement over PVA for several reasons but it also has its drawbacks so I do not consider it perfect & am open to suggestions for a better alternative.

 

It probably could Pete.  Frankly I got a bit lazy because I know PVA.  Tacky Glue is an unknown to me when it comes to diluting.  I'd love to hear from others who have used Tacky Glue or similar (I suspect it is very much like WS scenic glue) for ballast.  You mention Copydex.  I've never seen that here but from what I have read, Tacky Glue may have similar properties.

 

I am a bit skeptical about the value of cork for sound insulation (like most people I have used cork for previous layouts), but it is a certainty that any value is lost when track and ballast are glued down with PVA.

 

John

[Bluemonkey presents....]

12 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Maybe just use strips under the track and wide enough to receive the Ballast. Use Cork Ballast as well?

It's the Stone Ballast glued and in contact with the Ply that creates the noise.

That Neoprene is expensive, so you could use a Floor Tile Foam Underlay or  Corrugated Card.

Phil

Cheers Phil,  Yes hoping to use cork as the main bed and with the neoprene just under the track would start to get a little high. I was luck and sourced a cheap (ish) supply of rolled underlay so had plenty for the planned layout but now having to lift the boards was hoping that someone else had experimented/experienced using it on the reverse so not to waste what has been laid.

[Bluemonkey presents....]

9 hours ago, Ben Alder said:

I laid the Carrs 5mm foam on the baseboard with Copydex and then used Tracklay for the track itself. Results in a silent smooth running P Way.

 

https://www.tracklay.co.uk/product/oo-gauge-underlay-5m

Looks like a couple of interesting products. Trial pack will be interesting, thank you.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

As already suggested, it is decoupling of the sound source (mechanisms and wheels moving on the rails) from the baseboard that  is most effective. The baseboard act as a loudspeaker membrane, efficiently coupling to the air mass thanks to its area.

 

Summary of practical principles of what is most effective in noise reduction:

Reduce baseboard area carrying track - open frame construction is very effective.

Lay track on compliant material that transmits vibration poorly.

Attach track and ballast using a latex adhesive such as Copydex to avoid rigid bonding.

Replace any coffee grinder mechanisms with something more refined.

 

[fulton]

Makes me smile at exhibitions, people comment on how quiet my trains are, how did I do it, of course its the back ground noise masking out my noisy layout, you should hear it at home! Have not tried it but would sound deadening quilt filling the hollow baseboard work?

[ejstubbs]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The baseboard act as a loudspeaker membrane, efficiently coupling to the air mass thanks to its area.

 

The thing about loudspeaker cones is that they weigh relatively very little.  I think it might be possible to deaden drumming from the track a bit by attaching additional wood,(maybe dense hardwood, to the underside of the baseboards.  But I imagine that might be a tad inconvenient and/or impractical when it comes to wiring, fitting point motors etc.

 

So I think you're right: it's definitely preferable to try to isolate the track from the baseboard so the vibrations never reach it, rather than trying to dampen the vibrations once they've already reached the 'sounding board'.

[Mike Buckner]

?? possibly the lightweight hexagonal structural filling of the boards used in table furniture by the likes of IKEA resonate less than solid wood ??

[ColinK]

Would a sheet of Sundela on top of the ply work?

[Ben Alder]

15 hours ago, Bluemonkey presents.... said:

Looks like a couple of interesting products. Trial pack will be interesting, thank you.

If of any interest, here is my blog on using it. The original pics have vanished, but I have uploaded as many as I still had along with some later ones. Some day I must get round to sorting it all out properly....

 

 

[DCB]

13 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

  I think it might be possible to deaden drumming from the track a bit by attaching additional wood,(maybe dense hardwood, to the underside of the baseboards.  But I imagine that might be a tad inconvenient and/or impractical when it comes to wiring, fitting point motors etc.

 

So I think you're right: it's definitely preferable to try to isolate the track from the baseboard so the vibrations never reach it, rather than trying to dampen the vibrations once they've already reached the 'sounding board'.

A big chunk of hardwood attached to the middle of the unsupported baseboard would be interesting. Like a resonator in reverse. I have 3mm MDF  1/2" fibreboard, Sundela board, Track bases and larger sheets 2ftX 4ft     1 /2" and 3/4" softwood track bases,  Sand and cement on Concrete, even a bit of galvanised wiring trunking and  it all drums horribly when the track is glued down,   I couldn't stand the  noise the PVA Glued ballast made so I ripped it up and scraped the ballast off.  Conversely I really like the drumming of wheels over a large rail joint on the end of the lifting section.    I sort of feel that the "ballast" needs to be resilient rather than bits of rock and glued with tacky glue around and between the sleepers after the track is laid  and pinned down.  I have some track with tufts of carpet laid around it to represent grass and weeds and its very quiet.
Outside the elevated section on 1/2" approx softwood with sand cement "ballast" sounds horrible with dirty track and plastic wheels but sings like the real thing when clean with clean metal wheels and reasonably smooth running locos, the section on a Cotswold stone wall and the concrete path is much quieter.  I don't see any advantage in silent track unless you are running trains very slowly to give the illusion of greater distance.   I try to run at scale speeds and the big rail joint gives me the cue to train speed, From the layout shed the trains on Network rail can be heard clearly and the sound is the wheels singing on the rails, the horns and steam whistles can be heard but not the throb of the Diesel or beat of a steam loco....   Gluing to foam may work but.... If you have curves less than about 3ft radius you probably need rail which won't spring back, like set track rail, which stays put for years not code 100 Peco streamline flexi which spends all its time trying to straighten itself out and make dog legs. 

 

[Bluemonkey presents....]

I have used fibreboard in the past and I remember the deafening sound produced, I think this is similar to sundela, unfortunately.

My intention to to model the location and just have trains running around, pretty much like a child would. It has been mentioned that my modelling is very much child like. 

The attempt to reduce/deaden the noise produced by the trains running around is more the for other occupants of the property and for the operator whilst watching the things run.

I have looked into the trial pack for the tracklay and the postage cost is nearly double the actual cost for the trial pack which seems extreme at this current juncture, (I understand the time, admin and packing costs) just need to explore other more accessible options first, before investing.

[Neil]

I use 4mm thick black yoga matt material, ballasted with tinted sand fixed with dilute copydex rather than the usual pva and it's still noisy. 

[Bluemonkey presents....]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

I use 4mm thick black yoga matt material, ballasted with tinted sand fixed with dilute copydex rather than the usual pva and it's still noisy. 

Thanks, good to know. Seems could be searching for a unicorn then. Appreciate your input as is good to know people's personal experiences with foam.

[simon b]

It doesn't matter what you lay your track on if your going to ballast it, as soon as you glue the ballast down it will transfer the noise to the board.

 

Depending on the design of your boards, the way I do it is lay the track directly on the baseboard with no cork or foam. Then once wiring is complete glue 75mm high density furniture foam to the underside of the board Leaving no gaps anywhere. That kills any drumming noises.

[The Johnster]

Noise is good, so more noise must be better.  Real trains make noise and we want our trains to be like real trains, don't we?  Track pva-ed direct to baseboards and slitting disc cuts every 9" or so for the diddly-dum effect; I also use this to guess speed and achieve realistic rates of accelleration and decelleration.  Don't think I'd be allowed to get away with this if the layout was in the living room, though...

 

DC control so I make my own chuff chuff noises, vacuum pump ts ts ts, rail grinding and squealing, signal clangs, and whistles; again, she'd probably call the men in the white coats if I did this in the living room.

[Hal Nail]

Interesting reading. Sounds like the OP flipping boards won't help as seems to be the drum skin effect of the board that creates the noise.

 

Nevertheless as a schoolboy my Hornby underlay was miles quieter than when I tried direct ballisting so I'd still be inclined to experiment with sheet foam under the track and find a way to anchor curves.

 

In 7mm I fill the inside of wagons with bubblewrap to stop them becoming a sound box. I'm now spinging my kit builds so need to finish one and see if that also reduces general vibration.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Hal Nail

[fulton]

Just a thought, has anyone tried any of the self adhesive sound proofing made for cars, stuck to the underside of the board?

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Not tried or even thought of this idea. Great idea will have to try it. Certainly would free up the laying of track dilemma.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Bluemonkey presents....
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