LMS and Constituents -- Correct Number, Tender and Other Info Plates Miscellany

[Ian M.]

Hello. Relative newby here to British rail heritage and, full disclosure, an obsessed rivet counter. I am trying to ascertain a few things with respect to all matters markings and information plates for the LMS and its constituent railways – in particular Midland, S&DJR and L&YR. Some specific questions I am hoping the board can yield answers for, and recognizing there may be general considerations and more detailed, railway-by-loco by build year responses:

 

• Numberplates and Shed Plates: These were typically cast iron, and the raised characters were either polished iron or painted white on painted black plates. Was the difference between polished iron vs. painted white more a matter of era -- as in later in LMS days into BR, or for example was it common for Midland, S&DJR, L&YR, NCC and early LMS to have painted white numerals?  B&W photos showing very bright characters are often difficult to discern as to whether it was a high polish or actual paint. Was there a difference by railway? For example the few period photos I’ve seen of S&DJR steam suggest painted white even in the 1920s or earlier. Finally, when did shed code plates first make an appearance?  For example, S&DJR does not seem to ever have had them up to 1930 (could definitely be wrong on this) and Midland very late pre-grouping if at all.

 

• Tender Number and Capacity Plates: I must admit these have me baffled for LMS and its constituents. I have seen examples of cast brass, blackened with the raised rims and characters polished to the brass, and cast iron painted black with the raised characters painted white. I cannot say I have ever seen cast iron plates painted black with polished characters, but I am not sure if that is a possibility as well. It seems, based on extant examples, that there are both cast brass and painted cast iron (even pre-1948) in the same timeframe, for the same types of tenders/bunkers. Was this a question, at all, of individual railway practice, timeframe, builder works' preference, or passenger vs. goods as primary purpose?

 

• Builder/Maker Plates: No real questions here, as they generally seemed to always be polished caste or engraved brass with occasionally polished iron depending on works, until later LMS when they were black painted cast iron with white painted raised characters. However, when one looks at some of the OO offerings out there from Bachmann or Hornby, one sometimes sees white painted works plates (in addition to white painted tender plates or number plates) on early examples where one would think they would be brass. Examples include the SDJR 4F 0-6-0s and 0-6-0Ts from Bachmann, whereas their Midland 4F 0-6-0 has brass works and tender plates as would be expected (and white numbers on the smokebox).

 

I have much of the printed matter, including most of the rather excellent LMS and Midland Locomotive Profiles from Wild Swan and several of the LMS series from Essery et al.  The questions above extend beyond this source material and are an attempt to fill in some gaps in my knowledge  and reconcile reality with how specific models are depicted. Hopefully, this also engenders a discussion that contributes to the knowledge of British steam heritage and modellers alike.

[Wickham Green too]

Ignore what you see on preserved railways - smokebox number plates, shed plates, and tender plates were ALWAYS cast iron - which goes rusty if you don't paint it ( etched model plates are usually in nickel silver - and it's damned awkward impossible to pick out the details in white so they WILL look like polished metal ).

 

Cabside numberplates on GWR locos were 'usually' brass on passenger locos and 'usually cast iron on goods locomotives.

 

Builders' plates - where fitted - were usually brass.

[Steamport Southport]

I'll give a proper answer later, unless someone gives a definitive answer.

 

Shedcodes.

 

MR engines kept the MR numerical system. Fitted at the bottom of the smokebox, clearly visible on 1000.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/curly42/14325197661

 

LNWR and L&YR kept their systems. Fitted to the cab (inside or outside).

 

The alphanumerical scheme appeared from 1933. Note that many LNWR and L&YR locomotives never got them. That's why the S&DJR locomotives didn't get them, they were absorbed into the LMS by then.

 

Numberplates. 

 

Yes, there were some polished metal number plates. At least one batch of 4P 2-6-4Ts got them and there were others.

 

Also don't forget Silver Jubilee!

 

http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/articles/Railway Gazette/Edition6.htm

 

If the number plate was that style they would probably be polished metal.

 

 

Jason

Edited September 23, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[Ian M.]

Thanks for the replies. With respect ot tender plates, I have seen both LMS and GWR in brass so it would not seem an absolute that they were always cast iron. But just based on what has been for auction, cast iron would dominate, though it would be nice if there was any explanation as to when brass vs. iron. Perhaps that is as elusive as the holy grail.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Ian M.
Correction

[Steamport Southport]

What GWR locos got cast iron numberplates? That's easy.

 

https://www.railwayana.org/guides/loco_train/guides_loco_train_cabsides.html

 

 

 

Jason

[Ian M.]

I am having real difficulty finding any clear photos of the rear of LNWR tender or removed tender number plates that are not restored, even period B&W photos. Can anyone confirm whether LNWR tender number plates were cast iron or brass (or both)? If cast iron as I expect, I assume they were painted black with rims and characters picked out in white. Thoughts.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Ian M.
fix typo

[Compound2632]

On 12/12/2023 at 15:11, Ian M. said:

I am having real difficulty finding any clear photos of the rear of LNWR tender or removed tender number plates that are not restored, even period B&W photos. Can anyone confirm whether LNWR tender number plates were cast iron or brass (or both)? If cast iron as I expect, I assume they were painted black with rims and characters picked out in white. Thoughts.

 

If you do Facebook, a really good place to put this question would be the L&NWR Society Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/109619289726001 (you will have to join the group to post the question but that's straightforward enough).

 

Update: according to LNWR Liveries (HMRS, 1985), whereas loco numberplates were cast iron or brass at various periods, tender numberplates were always cast iron.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Compound2632

[Ian M.]

On 13/12/2023 at 14:36, Compound2632 said:

 

If you do Facebook, a really good place to put this question would be the L&NWR Society Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/109619289726001 (you will have to join the group to post the question but that's straightforward enough).

 

Update: according to LNWR Liveries (HMRS, 1985), whereas loco numberplates were cast iron or brass at various periods, tender numberplates were always cast iron.

Sorry I dropped Facebook eons ago (too much garbage). With respect to LNWR cast iron tender numberplates, do we know whether, as built and out of the shops, these were painted black w- characters picked out in white, all black, polished characters? Cheers.