Visits of 78xxx locos to London Area

[Tallpaul69]

Hi Everyone,

With the imminent arrival of the Hornby 78xxx I am trying to work up an excuse to buy one for my GW&GC layout.

So has anyone any knowledge of any visits of 78xxx 2-6-0s in the period 1960-63 to the London Area via the GW mainline or GW&GC?

 

I am thinking mainly of the WR allocated examples that were at Shrewsbury, Gloucester, Worcester and on the Cambrian line, but might the Chester, or Lancashire examples come that way for instance double heading a football special to Wembley?

 

Many thanks for any relevant info or suggested sources of info!

 

Cheers

Paul  

[The Johnster]

A 2MT with 5'3" drivers is a bit out of it's depth on a footex from the Northwest of England, even double-headed, and anything headed your way from Gloucester or Worcester would likely have come off at Banbury.  Salop is a bit far out as well.  So the answer is, unfortunatly, that they are an improbable engine on the GW Birmingham Direct or the GW/GC joint.  Were any allox to LMR London area sheds; these might have found their way on to your territory with goods trains?

[adb968008]

78038 was famous for an LCGB railtour around Surrey, 5th July 1964

The Surrey Rambler.

 

Combined with M7, 30053, from London Victoria it visited Shepperton to Wimbledon, via Merton to West Croydon, Epsom Downs, Tulse Hill, Beckenham, Caterham and Tattenham corner.

 

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/640705lc.html

 

At the time of this trip 78038 was a Willesden loco, so if it made its way to Victoria for a railtour, theres not much stopping it getting to either the GW or GC on a transfer freight. There was 11 78xxx at Willesdon over time.

[The Johnster]

Bingo!  Willesden allocation, correct period, 2MT used on trip and transfer freight work, good possibility of it appearing on the OP's patch, high enough for reasonable use of Rule 1!  Photos are probably a bit thin on the ground, but if you can find one of a Willesden Ivatt 2MT potching about in the vicinity, chances are that 78038 worked that turn at some time as well, as it would have been used in exactly the same way.

 

FTFY.

[Steamport Southport]

Will Crystal Palace do?

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p645313931/e422d3788

 

Flick through as more photos of that tour.

 

Or 78063 at Euston.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p645313931/e8f38abf3

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

... high enough for reasonable use of Rule 1!  ...

I didn't realise Rule 1 actually necessitated any degree of plausibility !!?! 🤪 

[adb968008]

That railtour brought everyone out, theres pictures of 78038 and 30053 all over south london.

That said looking at the route, it makes sense, its a zig zag of lines only a few miles apart, the Thumper/73119 and 66763 covered a very similar route a few months ago, and I was able to chase and photograph it 11 different locations in a day.

 

The highlight of the day would be 30053, all the M7’s had been withdrawn two months earlier, so this one in July was definitely its last hurrah… by contrast the 1966 railtour with 34089 has very few pictures, and in the case of Epsom Downs was the last steam for 40 years until 34016 visited, and itself remains the last steam since.

Whats interesting is where 78038 operated, it wasnt on the train at Waterloo, so it didnt do the ecs, it replaced 30053 at Shepperton, ran various front or tender first around south london, but dropped off at Caterham. Suggesting it was hovering around nine elms perhaps.

the lcgb tour appraisal doesnt make any special reference to 78038 being either requested or unusual, but does shout out 30053 being withdrawn.

https://d3hgrlq6yacptf.cloudfront.net/6086b51ecb6d0/content/pages/documents/lcgb-thefirsthundred.pdf

 

Even the West Croydon line has only 3 steam railtours since 1968, the last one seven years ago was the Footex special with 34046, despite being an obvious BML avoiding route.

 

Back to the 78xxx’s .. 10 of em at Willesdon, photos online show them mostly on Willesdon shed, most of them are next to something named… they were mundane, no one noticed them..ECS or london transfer freight is easy to imagine, but equally easy forgotten.

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by adb968008

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I didn't realise Rule 1 actually necessitated any degree of plausibility !!?! 🤪 

With great power comes great responsibility, Wickham🤔.  Rule 1 locos should have a plausible backstory on a layout set in a time and place, or you’re just playing trains and there’s no point to the layout being set in a time or place.  It’s not like we do this for our own pleasure, it’s to provide a railway service for the little 4mm people.  My railway is not a model, it is a real railway, only small and in the 1950s…😉

[Ian Hargrave]

22 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi Everyone,

With the imminent arrival of the Hornby 78xxx I am trying to work up an excuse to buy one for my GW&GC layout.

So has anyone any knowledge of any visits of 78xxx 2-6-0s in the period 1960-63 to the London Area via the GW mainline or GW&GC?

 

I am thinking mainly of the WR allocated examples that were at Shrewsbury, Gloucester, Worcester and on the Cambrian line, but might the Chester, or Lancashire examples come that way for instance double heading a football special to Wembley?

 

Many thanks for any relevant info or suggested sources of info!

 

Cheers

Paul  

My acquaintance with them WR during my 1950’s spotting days is entirely Cambrian where they were a fixture for quite a while. And nowhere else I’m afraid.Certainly not on any mainline duty .They were a secondary line loco .The 1960’s saw a general dispersal of stock…hence reference to them at Willesden.BTW 78047 has arrived.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Ian Hargrave
Adding text

[adb968008]

flickr url, not mine, Acton Power station, so its heading to either the GW or the Southern.

 

 

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

My acquaintance with them WR during my 1950’s spotting days is entirely Cambrian where they were a fixture for quite a while. And nowhere else I’m afraid.Certainly not on any mainline duty .They were a secondary line loco

 

Allox Machynlleth and Moat Lane, the latter for the Mid-Wales line to Brecon; very much 'secondary line locos'.  But where a main line shed has an allocation of locos with a high route availability for turns over 'secondary' lines in addition to it's main line work (Shrewsbury for example, or Gloucester for the Hereford route), it will use those locos on main line duties that it is capable of if it is not required that day on route availability-restricted work; a shed foreman will use whatever he has available at the time.  So it would be a simplification to suggest that these locos only appeared on secondary lines; they could be seen on the lighter main line duties as well.  This would apply on the WR to Manors, 43xx, Dean Goods, 2251s, Dukedogs, BR standard 4MT 4-6-0s and such, as well as the region's Ivatt and BR standard 2MT moguls.  For example, Canton, a shed with no route avialiblitity restricted work whatsoever, had several standard 75xxx 4MTs because it had work for them.

 

The 78xxx moguls were fundamentally a continuation of the modern Ivatt 2MT locos, and one could regard the 76xxx as a similar continuation of the Ivatt 4MT, with only cosemetic changes to the design.  The 84xxx small prairie is in a simalar relationship to it's Ivatt predecessor.  These locos were needed in the late 40s and early 50s to replace life-expired 0-6-0s and 4-4-0s, and while some of them had very short working lives this could not have been easily foreseen at the time they were ordered.  Dmus supplanted them on passenger work within a decade or so, before they had completed the intended role of replacing pre-grouping engines, and a massive loss of both passenger and goods work in the late 50s which is easy to predict in hindsight but caught the planners napping at the time, culminating in Beeching, who virtually wiped out local goods depots including those at main line stations (he closed far more main line stations than the branches he is famous for) has since led to questions over whether it was a waste of time to build these engines at all, but one needs to look at the problem from a 1950 perspective...

[Tallpaul69]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

 

I am persuaded that I can justify a 78xxx on my GW&GC line, but I have yet to decide which one!. I may wait a while and see if a second batch are produced, maybe including some weathered examples?

 

The other alternative is to buy one via TMC who I am sure will do a first class weathering job. I am also wondering whether Hornby will produce a suitable sound file in their new TXS system?

 

Another loco I am considering is Model Rail's upcoming class 11/12:-

I think the best bet here will be to get TMC to produce a heavily weathered ex BR example which I can use as the yard shunter in the Wagon Works on the (Rule 1) Wycombe End branch off my GW&GC line. There were WR examples, but most of those spent their early 60s life at Cardiff Docks, apart from one that was variously at Bristol and Swindon. With their 4ft wheels, I don't see them wandering even as far as the larger wheeled 08s did! 

 

As anyone who has read my other threads will know, my skills lie in scenery, not weathering or Chip fitting, so I will have to rely on others for the weathering work etc..

 

Cheers All,

Paul 

[JimC]

54 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

to replace life-expired 0-6-0s and 4-4-0s, and while some of them had very short working lives this could not have been easily foreseen at the time they were ordered.

It was inevitable, though, that with a a complete traction change, some locos would run a short life. And with steam locomotives being relatively cheap to build and expensive to maintain it might not need a very long life for it to be cost effective to replace rather than repair. In the 30s the GWR was spending about half the cost of a new locomotive on major third party overhauls of absorbed classes. If your new locomotives are running say 30% longer between overhauls and the overhauls are cheaper too, plus the advantages of no longer having to hold consumables for obsolete types then I don't think it would take that many years for replacement to be cost effective.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks to everyone for their input.

 

I am persuaded that I can justify a 78xxx on my GW&GC line, but I have yet to decide which one!. I may wait a while and see if a second batch are produced, maybe including some weathered examples?

 

The other alternative is to buy one via TMC who I am sure will do a first class weathering job. I am also wondering whether Hornby will produce a suitable sound file in their new TXS system?

 

Another loco I am considering is Model Rail's upcoming class 11/12:-

I think the best bet here will be to get TMC to produce a heavily weathered ex BR example which I can use as the yard shunter in the Wagon Works on the (Rule 1) Wycombe End branch off my GW&GC line. There were WR examples, but most of those spent their early 60s life at Cardiff Docks, apart from one that was variously at Bristol and Swindon. With their 4ft wheels, I don't see them wandering even as far as the larger wheeled 08s did! 

 

As anyone who has read my other threads will know, my skills lie in scenery, not weathering or Chip fitting, so I will have to rely on others for the weathering work etc..

 

Cheers All,

Paul 

 

One to aim for might be the Acton photo example, 78029 in lined black ferret & dartboard with red OLE warning flashes.  TMC could do the renumbering, but if you chose to do that yourself, it is not difficult with transfers.  Care and patience is needed, as the last number you applied needs to dry  before you start wetting the area with then next one, but it’s only the last two that need doing.  Bit fiddly with the smokebox numbers!  Be careful, though, this is a slippery slope, and you’ll soon be making bespoke alterations to all your stock…

[adb968008]

Tbh this thread, and Hornbys extra 10% this weekend, did tip me over the edge to ordering a second 78047, to model a 78038.. this railtour was all over “my hood” as it were, even if it were before my time.

[Tallpaul69]

Good afternoon folks,

I am currently thinking to model 78038 which according to Paul Teal's Motive Power Allocations:- BR Standards and Austerities, arrived at Willesden in May 1963. 78029 while having the advantage of the photo at Acton, when it came south in June 63 arrived at Watford. It did not get to Willesden until  April 1965, which is a bit late for the 1960-63 timeframe of my layout.

Next I must dig out my WTT for the south end of the WC main line in 1962 and see what freight trains might have headed in the direction of High Wycombe.  My GW&GC timetable for that period only offers freights from Neasden, but I guess a 78xxx could have been lent to Neasden?

 

I will have to wait until next weekend to splash out on a 78xxx, I am spent out this month!

 

Cheers to you all,

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

On 29/09/2023 at 14:52, adb968008 said:

flickr url, not mine,  Acton Power station, so its heading to either the GW or the Southern -

Or it's going to set back into the sidings - which might explain why someone is looking back out of the other side of the

cab and it appears to be in back gear.

 

[bécasse]

3 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

 

Next I must dig out my WTT for the south end of the WC main line in 1962 and see what freight trains might have headed in the direction of High Wycombe.  My GW&GC timetable for that period only offers freights from Neasden, but I guess a 78xxx could have been lent to Neasden?

 

Neasden, once transferred to the LMR (it had, of course, been an ER shed), was allocated to Cricklewood's district which would make a loan from Willesden unlikely (but probably not absolutely impossible in an emergency). The other, perhaps more realistic possibility, is that a Willesden loco may have been seen on the High Wycombe line heading a train diverted away from the WCML during electrification. There was certainly a period in the early 1960s when the up overnight Manchester-London service turned right at Bletchley, left at the Calvert Spur and then ran via High Wycombe to Marylebone! Doubtless that wasn't the only such diversion.