Re-Wheeling Hornby 14xx With Ultrascale Wheels

[RonnieS]

Hopefully some kind person on here has done the re-Wheeling Hornby 14xx With Ultrascale Wheels conversion? It may not be as easy as I thought. So I thought I would as for some advice. Ideally step by step.  The kit comes ready assembled

 

So in theory all you have to do is remove  3 screws lift the item 10 swap the wheels and reassemble?

 

 

Things are never that easy! There must be pitfalls?

Edited October 6, 2023 by RonnieS
Missing sentence

[Captain Kernow]

I've not done this conversion but I have converted other types of loco using Ultrascale drop-in wheels.

 

In theory, if it's a straight OO to OO swap, you are right, it should be straightforward, but are the wheels you picture of a wider gauge (EM or P4)?

 

If so, then at the very least you may have to take a sharp scalpel to the back edges of the brake shoes, to give the flanges a bit more clearance. At worst, you may have to remove the brake gear altogether and re-mount it.

 

If a wider gauge, then the pick ups will almost certainly need adjusting to meet the wider gauge.

 

[RonnieS]

straight OO to OO swap

[DCB]

That's an awful lot of money to wasts  spend on a Hornby 14XX.  I think I have 6 Dapol and Hornby 14XX  in my scrap box 1 pretty one as a shed decoration, a Hattons pulling trains and a Hornby body on an old K's chassis awaiting final tweaks.  The Hornby chassis is awful.    I would keep the Hornby wheels and get a better chassis.   It's very difficult to get the chassis to sit level with the sprung  trailing  axle, too stiff and it will barely move it self too soft and the leading wheels derail even with Hornby wheels though it will pull a couple of Mk1s.   With Traction tyres they at least pull a decent load,   and  my memories are of 1420(?) on the GWSR hauling  6 X  Mk1s up the 1 in 100 (?) out of Winchcomb without slipping ,but the loco hops about like an over excited Frog.  The rear buffer beam and coupling moving up and down several mm   on the Hornby Chassis is a nuisance.  One plan I have is to use the Airfix chassis with the Hornby Motor, the Airfix motor is very heavy and is over the unpowered wheels, so a lighter motor might help,as would changing from the unreliable Airfix  plunger pickups to wipers   A compensated  Comet chassis is probably off the shelf optimum. I want to go 6 wheel drive,  maybe 2 motors, but if I could go split chassis and pick up from the rear axle without draggy wipers that would be a big improvement.  

[RonnieS]

2 hours ago, DCB said:

That's an awful lot of money to wasts  spend on a Hornby 14XX. 

................came at a good price S/H but unused. Loco run very well ....It's just appearance. I had 2 Hornby 14xxs this is far superior to the one I swapped. The quality of proprietary locos can be very variable.

[peterm1]

I put Ultrascale wheels on my Hornby 14xx and if I remember correctly, it was easy. I remember slackening the tension on the rear axle spring and with no tyres it pulls OK.

 

[rovex]

I got a couple Dapol chassis as spares and swapped out the tired wheels on mine. But could never get them quite right to avoid the wobble

[DCB]

I found  1) the coupling rods vary in length,  2) the wheels seem to like going back to the same place they were originally fitted.
I found changing the tyres and keeping the original wheels and coupling rods when deleting traction tyres on chassis which ran reasonably well worked better than swapping wheels    Modellers often fit a spare a pair of front wheels to the centre axle and introduce a wobble.    On the 61XX with similar genius China Logic square axle holes I have used Triang axles (Really old late 1950s non see thru wheel type)  which are slightly larger and also allow the "Hole" to be filed square to the chassis.   All these Dapol, Hornby and Airfix 14XX ran beautifully when new but the traction tyres start degrading and the wobble sets in and the Airfix snaps across the front axle hole if you over tighten the fixing screw and the gears then strip....    I really don't like these Airfix Dapol Hornby 14XX chassis.   The Body is very odd round the cab roof as well.

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, RonnieS said:

................came at a good price S/H but unused. Loco run very well ....It's just appearance. I had 2 Hornby 14xxs this is far superior to the one I swapped. The quality of proprietary locos can be very variable.

In which case I'd just go for it and try the conversion. You've nothing to lose.

 

If the Ultrascale wheels are bespoke for the RTR chassis, however, be careful if you want to use them in an etched chassis, such as Comet or High Level, as the axle diameter may not match conventional 1/8" axle bearing holes and there seem to be plastic shoulders on the inside of the Ultrascale 'drop in' wheelsets that would need dealing with for an etched chassis.

 

[RonnieS]

Well Thank Guys you all inspired me bite the bullet. So I found a few pitfalls and thought I'd post here as some one else might tread the same path. Please excuse the rubbish photos

It can be done! You need to remove the 3 screws underneath, remove the body and 2 screws (one fore and one aft)

holding the metal bit to the plastic wheel retainer. Then there are 4 lugs to lever outwards.

these are an absolute B!

[RonnieS]

5 hours ago, RonnieS said:

 

 4 lugs to lever outwards.

these are an absolute B!

Because when you get the left one free the right one springs back in! Eventually  I got it loose but the plastic bit is a channel and tight on the metal part of the chassis. The wire attached to the plastic part is short meaning you can not fully separate the 2 parts. I got the driving wheels in but (for now) left the Hornby trailing wheel. I  put the  3 bottom screws back in and tested the chassis . It runs OK on the straight but the trailing truck derails on points. So with a bit (or a lot?) more work I feel it will make a great loco. On here and elsewhere people have made a great job of  tweaking the bodywork to make this 1P  first class. 

[RonnieS]

So I completed it BUT it's not a total success. I don't recommend this conversion.  It runs fine around all of the layout including the tight 30 inch rad points in the fiddle yard bunker first BUT smokebox first it derails on the 30 inch rad points. It is however fine smokebox first around 60 inch rad  points. If I could get more weight in the smokebox it would help but there is no room. It will be a reserve., rarely used loco.

 

Again I thought I'd post here as some one else might tread the same path.

 

Thanks to all who posted.

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It only needs a quick inspection of what Bachmann have deployed in their two 0-4-4T, to understand that all previous RTR  front four coupled models are fit for scrap. Cast metal body up front, plastic body mouldings,  light coreless motor and decoder to the rear of the second driven axle: balance point lies between the coupled wheels as a result. The one proven trick from their established technique that was omitted was not using split axle pick up on the bogie, but since traction is stable and ample for 1P-ish classes, we can live without that.

 

Perhaps one of  the Western oriented model shops might commission one?

[RonnieS]

On 08/10/2023 at 20:12, RonnieS said:

So I completed it BUT it's not a total success. I don't recommend this conversion.  It runs fine around all of the layout including the tight 30 inch rad points in the fiddle yard bunker first BUT smokebox first it derails on the 30 inch rad points. It is however fine smokebox first around 60 inch rad  points. If I could get more weight in the smokebox it would help but there is no room. It will be a reserve., rarely used loco.

 

Again I thought I'd post here as some one else might tread the same path.

 

Thanks to all who posted.

 

 

Well I gave it the occasional run BUT today a driving wheel moved on it's axle.  In a box now awaiting it's fate. Again DO NOT DO THIS CONVERSION

[Captain Kernow]

Unfortunately Ultrascale wheels tend not to be as tight on the axles as Gibson ones, but if you can get the quartering back 'just so', then the thing to do would be to pin the wheel on the axle.

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

4 hours ago, RonnieS said:

Well I gave it the occasional run BUT today a driving wheel moved on it's axle.  In a box now awaiting it's fate. Again DO NOT DO THIS CONVERSION

In the photo showing your conversion,  the Ultrascale wheels seem only partly pushed onto the axles, unlike the photo in the opening post. Is that so? As CK says, Ultrascale wheels are less tight fit on the the axle than Gibson wheels (which is why some people pin the wheels to the axles).

 

If yours are only partly pushed on - as though you have EM or P4 back to back gauged wheels on OO axles - then the grip between the wheel and axle could well be the cause of the slippage. 

[RosiesBoss]

G'day, all,

 

I am one of the large fraternity of modellers frustrated by the running properties of the Airfix/Dapol Hornby 14XX chassis, once they are well run-in.

 

I published a blog describing the replacement of one of these in 2018, but the pictures have disappeared. Here is a pdf of the text and illustrations, which may be of some interest again.GWR 517 Class No 848.pdf

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[peterm1]

Maybe it's the luck of the draw, although it shouldn't be. I posted last October that mine runs well with it's Ultrascale wheels, and it still does. In another story, I've had 3 of the 4 wheels slip on the axles of a Dapol B4. I have a NWSL quartering jig and used it along with Loctite 640 to refit said wheels. If you're up for it, it might be worth getting hold of the jig.

[DCB]

7 minutes ago, peterm1 said:

Maybe it's the luck of the draw, although it shouldn't be. I posted last October that mine runs well with it's Ultrascale wheels, and it still does. In another story, I've had 3 of the 4 wheels slip on the axles of a Dapol B4. I have a NWSL quartering jig and used it along with Loctite 640 to refit said wheels. If you're up for it, it might be worth getting hold of the jig.

I don't think any two Dapol Hornby 14XX were alike, the chassis slots spring tension, coupling rod length all varied.     The chassis design is poor, What is needed is a no traction tyre chassis with leading axle drive, floating centre axle and a driven rear axle.  That's what I have planned...