Big 4 sheds that could have a roundhouse/inner turntable set up instead of roads runthough the shed?

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I don't know whether any British sheds had capstans for moving dead - or near-dead - locos ??!?

 

I've not seen any evidence of such things in Midland sheds. I suppose the assumption was the you could always raise steam.

 

The larger Midland sheds had a workshop attached, equipped for heavy overhauls - travelling crane capable of lifting the boiler out, etc. These were accessed by small turntables - big enough for engine alone, without tender. I don't know how engines were moved in and out of these.

[LMS2968]

11 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Usual practice at western sheds - even with tank engines - seems to have been to have somokebox end towards the turntable and the smoke hoods were of course arranged that way round as well as the photos above show.

And thereby allowing the buffer beam numbers to be read by the next crew, smokebox plates in the case of the Midland. The engine would then be turned to face the right direction as it was leaving its stall.

[Rugd1022]

On 08/10/2023 at 12:15, The Stationmaster said:

As noted - very much a date thing.  The large running sheds built in the Churchward era - a time of considerable modernisation of loco facilities - were large buildings with internal turntables.  But the lesser sheds built in that period were straight sheds and the turntable was elsewhere on the site.  In some cases site constraints probably played apart but cost also must have also been important as the sheds with internal turntables generally cost more because they needed a much larger building.

 

Andolder sheds which had internal turntables were sometimes altered to straight sheds ot r, as mentioned above were replaced by straight sheds.  Reading - a Dean era shed - originally had an internal turntable but was converted to a straight shed - presumably driven as much as anything by the increasing size of the engines using it.

 

Bath Road was one constrained very much by its site and was in any case a post Churchward re-development by which time interna; turntables were really a thing of the past in new construction.  Oxford and Chester both traced their origins back to the 1850s and neither was rebuilt in Churchwards time - in fact the original mixed  gauge wooden shed building at Oxford survived until closure of the depot to steam traction.  In both of these cases the sites were heavily constrained.  Even if Oxford had been rebuilt in Churchward\s time it would probably have only got a straight shed anyway.

 

The problem with roundouses and the GWr's use of internal turntables is that everything works well until the turntable, or one of them at larger sheds, fails, or needs maintenance or is damaged by derailment because then everything it feeds is blocked and that means that engines are forcibly out of use. Having in diesel days managed a depot which relied on a turntable for its whole pattern of working it was a right nuisance when that turntable was defective, even if locos wren't trapped on the radial roads.

 

For a period of about ten weeks in 1984 the 'table at Old Oak was out of action awaiting a new centre bearing from Germany or Switzerland, which meant we had to shuffle locos in and out of the three road servicing shed round the clock. I don't recall how many locos were trapped round the 'table but they were removed by several of us pushing it round by hand, hampered slightly by the friction with the damaged bearing underneath. Each shed shift was normally triple manned with two drivers and a secondman, but this was doubled up during that ten week period, with (naturally) lots of overtime on offer for those who wanted it. As soon as each road inside the shed was cleared, we stable the fuelled locos on the coal stage road or stacked them up in the correct order for going off shed on the north and south outgoing roads radiating from the 'table. Meanwhile the other set of men would be bringing locos needing fuel etc into the shed, repeating this process throughout the day and night. I can remember shed foreman Bob Walters sat in his office with his head in his hands one morning, as some bright spark had stacked the locos on the north outgoing road in the wrong order for going off shed during the night!

 

Old Oak roundhouse, 1906...

 

 

Old Oak TMD, 1965 onwards...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Rugd1022

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

Old Oak TMD, 1965 onwards...

 

Was the turntable shown on that plan the turntable in the SW corner of the old shed, or a new one?

[Rugd1022]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Was the turntable shown on that plan the turntable in the SW corner of the old shed, or a new one?

 

The original SW corner one, and the new servicing shed was built on the site previously occupied by the SE corner one  - the new shed was constructed whilst the roundhouse was being demolished around it...

 

 

(The original wooden boarding covering the entire pit of the SW 'table was kept in place until late '67).

Edited October 9, 2023 by Rugd1022

[Rugd1022]

Another shot of Old Oak being transformed...

 

 

It was a bit chaotic by all accounts, but it worked!

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Usual practice at western sheds - even with tank engines - seems to have been to have smokebox end towards the tuntable and the smoke hoods were of course arranged that way round  ...

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... Of course - so that it is easy for the crew to find their engine, by the smokebox numberplate or the bufferbeam number.

But it would have been a simple matter to put a number on the rear as well ................. was it only the Southern that did so ?

[LMS2968]

17 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

But it would have been a simple matter to put a number on the rear as well ................. was it only the Southern that did so ?

Not so easy if you regularly move tenders around between engines, as did the LNWR among others.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

Not so easy if you regularly move tenders around between engines, as did the LNWR among others.

 

Whereas on the Midland, the tender rear carried a cast plate giving the number of the engine to which the tender was allocated. This plate was changed if the tender was reallocated. They ceased to be used once the number was put on the tender sides. It wasn't until 1928 that the LMS did the logical thing and gave tenders their own numbers, carried on a plate on the rear.

 

This photo taken by R.H. Bleasdale at Derby in 1872, shows the variety of uses of a Midland square shed in the early days - not just engines standing in a circle, nose to the table. Note the tender hoisted up by its end, using a set of sheer-legs.

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of Midland Railway Study Centre item 61317.]

[Siberian Snooper]

Horsham, had a shed accessed from a turntable, but was not a full roundhouse.

 

 

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Horsham, had a shed accessed from a turntable, but was not a full roundhouse.

 

Likewise Lancaster (Green Ayre) - a very constricted site.

[melmerby]

Then you have the pattern, fairly common abroad* of radial road shed off a turntable in the open (St Blazey)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Blazey_engine_shed

It still exists and usable but the loco storage is in private hands

 

* e.g. Innsbruck, complete with OHLE:

Always strikes me as a bit odd because hearly all the locos are double ended!

Edited October 9, 2023 by melmerby

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Horsham, had a shed accessed from a turntable, but was not a full roundhouse.

Eastbourne, Guildford & Inverness come to mind, too ............... but with the 'table in the open they're somewhat ( further ) off topic.

 

3 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Not so easy if you regularly move tenders around between engines, as did the LNWR among others.

Coincidentally, I'm sure, the 'Premier Line' were reluctant to put numbers on the front of their locos - even into BR days ...... and, as noted above, they specialised in straight sheds !

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Coincidentally, I'm sure, the 'Premier Line' were reluctant to put numbers on the front of their locos - even into BR days ...... and, as noted above, they specialised in straight sheds !

 

This, I gather, is generally supposed to be because the LNWR smokebox doors were too flimsy to stand being drilled for the bolts to fix the numberplates.

[Wickham Green too]

Flicking through 'North Western Album', I get the impression LNWR buffer beams must have been too flimsy to take the weight of a painted number !!?! 😮

[298]

On 08/10/2023 at 12:27, Steamport Southport said:

 

Barrow Hill doesn't have a problem fitting mainline diesels and electrics, and that was the railway that only built small engines....

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

 

In early preservation days a homebuilt raised extension was used to turn large steam locos, but it was a right faff and fell out of favour if it wasn't exactly balanced and rubbed on the stonework. Large diesels such as Peaks had to have their unpowered wheelsets jacked and packed, and I'm sure Deltics were also too long. 

 

Turning one of the AC electrics was fairly easy with a working diesel on the opposite road, but if there wasn't we had to use pinch bars which took forever.

[Matt37268]

On 08/10/2023 at 12:27, Steamport Southport said:

 

Barrow Hill doesn't have a problem fitting mainline diesels and electrics, and that was the railway that only built small engines....

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

I believe there’s some sort of outrigger device for turning locomotives that are a little like my self and a bit big for the turntable. 😜

[LMS2968]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This, I gather, is generally supposed to be because the LNWR smokebox doors were too flimsy to stand being drilled for the bolts to fix the numberplates.

One of those urban myths. Even a flimsy door would withstand the weight of a cast plate; it had to be sufficiently strong not to distort and had to remain air tight under thermal expansion. Many LNWR engines were fitted with smokebox plates in the mid-twenties, and look surprisingly strange with them!

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

One of those urban myths. 

 

Yes indeed - I was being a bit naughty there. But I can't help feeling that there must have been some practical reason why they weren't fitted in many cases, not just the usual story of anti-Midland prejudice. We're dealing with senior staff here, not schoolboys.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Compound2632

[Wickham Green too]

.... and IF the Crewe doors had been too flimsy, a sturdier version could have been fitted at the next works visit - had there been the will.