Hornby TT120 1st Anniversary

[jonnyuk]

maybe, just maybe Hornby have drawn a line in the sand in regards popular stuff, HST, A4, class 66, Class 50, 08 etc. These are Hornby loco's hands off etc.

I would assume Hornby thought more manufactures would jump in, the fact they have not has meant a clear run for Hornby, but they would not of known that when doing the research/development/product roadmap.

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Need to hurry up then as people don’t have a lot of spare cash to buy a last minute extra at the moment. They need to be in the shops in the next four weeks really. From my nine years in retail the only thing that sells well last minute at Christmas is very cheap or the latest fad and I don’t think these hit either of those. 

Quite agree.  I wonder if they have supply problems with stuff not arribving when it was expected?  Hence the cancelled press briefing?

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 Yeah I know . In later life .  

Define 'later lfe',  

Definitely extremely unlikely in the streamliner era but regularly happening as booked work in BR days well  before the big diesels came along.

[PaulRhB]

51 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Quite agree.  I wonder if they have supply problems with stuff not arribving when it was expected?  Hence the cancelled press briefing?

ooh look Christmas in February  🤣

[Nearholmer]

Make a nice change from September, which is when our local “garden centre” (more of a giant department store with a few bushes for sale outside) thinks it is.

[Hobby]

38 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

ooh look Christmas in February  🤣

 

That was TT120 last year, so they're only making sure there's a proper 12 month gap!! 😉

Edited October 13, 2023 by Hobby

[Les1952]

14 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Mind you, I'd agree it looks a little silly! ;)

 

 

A4s were rostered for express goods even before WW2.  There is also the famous (true) story of Bill Hoole keeping his express goods ahead of the (Elizabethan?) for a goodly number of miles without holding it up before being stopped with a hot axlebox on one of the wagons- and signalbox records showing another occasion when an A4 on a Southbound express goods was being held up by the streamliner, running mile after mile behind it on ambers and double ambers....

 

Maybe not as silly as one might think....

 

BR Eastern Region had eighteen paths in each direction for fast goods between Doncaster and Peterborough that had to average 60mph start to stop (until about 1960 when everything was slowed down).  That involved climbing Stoke bank in each direction.  What sort of speeds were they doing down the other side?   The only authenticated 100mph achieved by a V2 was on a goods train going down Stoke bank.

 

Les

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

ooh look Christmas in February  🤣

Apologies for goinga little OT but Christmas is definitely coming -  our local Tesco have got Hot Cross Buns back in stock (d should I explain something to them I wonder?)

 

11 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

A4s were rostered for express goods even before WW2.  There is also the famous (true) story of Bill Hoole keeping his express goods ahead of the (Elizabethan?) for a goodly number of miles without holding it up before being stopped with a hot axlebox on one of the wagons- and signalbox records showing another occasion when an A4 on a Southbound express goods was being held up by the streamliner, running mile after mile behind it on ambers and double ambers....

 

Maybe not as silly as one might think....

 

BR Eastern Region had eighteen paths in each direction for fast goods between Doncaster and Peterborough that had to average 60mph start to stop (until about 1960 when everything was slowed down).  That involved climbing Stoke bank in each direction.  What sort of speeds were they doing down the other side?   The only authenticated 100mph achieved by a V2 was on a goods train going down Stoke bank.

 

Les

Although Bill Hoole's  (somewhat mad) episode was a long while after WWII of course.   And you wouldn't find all that much in the way of double yellows - let alone 'mile after mile of continuous double yellows' - south of Peterborough in the days when Gresley pacifics and V2s were 'timing'  (i.e. managing a mile a minute) on the fast fitted freights.

[Hroth]

On 13/10/2023 at 09:17, Hobby said:

 

Mind you, I'd agree it looks a little silly! ;)

 

 

Hmmmmmm......

 

In "Modern Image" the same effect could be achieved  with a similar formation and an InterCity 125 power car!

 

Yep, silly. 🤪

 

[andythenorth]

On 13/10/2023 at 09:11, Legend said:

"...who do know something about railways but have so far lacked the space . They know A3/A4 Pacifics look stupid on 10ft wheelbase goods trains. "

Perhaps...what they actually know is what they learnt from their childhood train sets?

• big passenger locos only ever hauled matching rakes of passenger carriages, all of the same generation
• tender locos never ran tender first
• parcels consists weren't wildly mixed, they were always a neat and tidy TPO + matching vans
• big passenger locos would never be seen hauling freight
• brake vans are only ever found at the rear of a freight train
• a brake coach is always the last vehicle in a passenger train, and there's only ever one in the consist
• restaurant cars always go in the middle of a passenger consist

 

Said with much love.

Edited October 14, 2023 by andythenorth

[Ravenser]

14 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Apologies for goinga little OT but Christmas is definitely coming -  our local Tesco have got Hot Cross Buns back in stock (d should I explain something to them I wonder?)

 

Although Bill Hoole's  (somewhat mad) episode was a long while after WWII of course.   And you wouldn't find all that much in the way of double yellows - let alone 'mile after mile of continuous double yellows' - south of Peterborough in the days when Gresley pacifics and V2s were 'timing'  (i.e. managing a mile a minute) on the fast fitted freights.

 

There is a reference is in PWB Semmens biography , saying it is not known if it was Bill Hoole, but....

On 13/10/2023 at 23:42, Les1952 said:

 

A4s were rostered for express goods even before WW2.  There is also the famous (true) story of Bill Hoole keeping his express goods ahead of the (Elizabethan?) for a goodly number of miles without holding it up before being stopped with a hot axlebox on one of the wagons- and signalbox records showing another occasion when an A4 on a Southbound express goods was being held up by the streamliner, running mile after mile behind it on ambers and double ambers....

 

 

 

Les

The ultimate reference is Ch 6 of I Tried to Run a Railway, where Gerry Fiennes says it was him....

 

Bill Hoole kept ahead of two expresses from KX to Huntingdon with 266 Scots Goods , running 27 miles Hitchin /Huntingdon in 20 minutes for a 75mph average. Being then sidelined at Peterborough Westwood yard to put off a wagon with a hot box, he found himself behind the expresses. and set out to regain time. The Talisman was the rear of the two - it took him to Retford to catch it...

Edited October 15, 2023 by Ravenser

[Nearholmer]

Would be interesting to know what the authorised speed of the train was, because taking a train of even the best 1950s 4W wagons in the best of condition along at that speed sounds like a recipe for hot boxes (yep, they got one) and for derailment due to oscillation, in short ‘no way to run a railway’.

[Hobby]

Bet the Guard was pleased when it was sidelined, the driver and fireman were Ok, having a nice smooth ride, but pity the poor Guard in his little rattle box.

[Les1952]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Would be interesting to know what the authorised speed of the train was, because taking a train of even the best 1950s 4W wagons in the best of condition along at that speed sounds like a recipe for hot boxes (yep, they got one) and for derailment due to oscillation, in short ‘no way to run a railway’.

 

A goodly proportion of LNE fitted stock (later Eastern, North Eastern and Scottish Regions were screw coupled and plated to run at 75mph up to about 1960 when Headquarters slowed everything down to 60mph maximum.  These were short wheelbase vans/wagons, brown in BR days.  As the train was fully fitted the brake van was not usually at the tail, but a few vehicles in.  Wagons added to the train en route were added behind the brake van.

 

Peter Coster's book (either one of the Pacific books or the one on the V2s) states that there were 18 freight paths in each direction between Doncaster and Peterborough timed to run at a start to stop AVERAGE of 60mph.  This helps to explain the 202 Pacifics and 184 V2s. 

 

The down Scotch Goods was an A4 rostered train whenever one was available, and substitutes were A1s for preference.  The return working was also an A4 turn.

 

Les

[Les1952]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

Bet the Guard was pleased when it was sidelined, the driver and fireman were Ok, having a nice smooth ride, but pity the poor Guard in his little rattle box.

 

The brake wasn't necessarily at the tail, and the train would be screw coupled.  As to a smooth ride on the loco, yes if it was a Gresley, no if a Peppercorn, and definitely no for a Thompson.

 

Bill Hoole also famously managed to dislodge all the floor boards on a B1 hitting Potters Bar pointwork at full line speed.  Another reason why the fastest trains had locos with trailing trucks.

 

Les

 

[Nearholmer]

Was it, by any chance, oscillation at those speeds, leading to derailments, that caused the limit to be reduced?

 

Even with all the couplings pulled-up properly, and everything in tip-top condition, relatively SWB 4W wagons are a bit of a problem in terms of their dynamics.

[PaulRhB]

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Was it, by any chance, oscillation at those speeds, leading to derailments, that caused the limit to be reduced?

 

Even with all the couplings pulled-up properly, and everything in tip-top condition, relatively SWB 4W wagons are a bit of a problem in terms of their dynamics.

Probably but due to the aging stock and track maintenance not being quite as regular by the 60’s. Note the high speed freight wagon project followed in the late 60’s and some of the research ended up in the APT. 

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Would be interesting to know what the authorised speed of the train was, because taking a train of even the best 1950s 4W wagons in the best of condition along at that speed sounds like a recipe for hot boxes (yep, they got one) and for derailment due to oscillation, in short ‘no way to run a railway’.

At that time provided all the wagons were of minimum 10ft wheelbase there was no limit.   That  came a bit later following teh spate of derailments which occurred following the introduction of diesels and much more widespread fast running although some cases assisted by less than erfectly maintained track.  (Don't forget that XP rated freight vehicles were permitted at that time to be attached to Class A/1 passenger trains without any restriction of speed.

 

According to afriend ogf mne who was a Fireman at Top Shed in this period Hoole was known as 'a hard runner' and many Firemen would deliberately avoid working with him because he reputedly made their job excessively hard work.  Other top link Drivers at the shed could run just as fast if circumstances needed it but with far less pressure on the Fireman.

 

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Was it, by any chance, oscillation at those speeds, leading to derailments, that caused the limit to be reduced?

 

Even with all the couplings pulled-up properly, and everything in tip-top condition, relatively SWB 4W wagons are a bit of a problem in terms of their dynamics.

I'm fairly sure that the research found oscillation to be one of the factors, along with even the most minor twist in straight track which initiated allsorts of unwanted behaviour in short (i.e. 10ft) wheelbase vehicles.

[Les1952]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

According to afriend ogf mne who was a Fireman at Top Shed in this period Hoole was known as 'a hard runner' and many Firemen would deliberately avoid working with him because he reputedly made their job excessively hard work.  Other top link Drivers at the shed could run just as fast if circumstances needed it but with far less pressure on the Fireman.

 

 

Bill Hoole also took his turn firing on stretches where the train was moving a little more slowly (ie up Stoke Bank) or the signals easier to read, thus giving his fireman a break and also helping him gain experience of driving ready for promotion.

 

In general Top Shed drivers considered it a point of honour to get to their destination on time, even when they had taken the train over late.  In the fifties there were rather more obstacles to that, partly due to reconstruction and the temporary speed restrictions that caused.

 

Les

 

[Mike Harvey]

In later times (1990s) derailment of 2 axle wagons at 60mph on continuously welded rail was often due to cyclic top - where the trackbed “remembers” where the 60ft joins were and the unevenness resulting from slight dips in the rail at 60ft intervals set up an oscillation which resulted in one wheel eventually climbing over a rail. 

[bmb5dnp1]

3 hours ago, Mike Harvey said:

In later times (1990s) derailment of 2 axle wagons at 60mph on continuously welded rail was often due to cyclic top - where the trackbed “remembers” where the 60ft joins were and the unevenness resulting from slight dips in the rail at 60ft intervals set up an oscillation which resulted in one wheel eventually climbing over a rail. 

Hello,

    I seem to remember reading an accident report on a freight train derailment (somewhere north of Rugby I think on the GC) that, ironically, it was the introduction of CWR that was at least partially responsible for the increase in wagon derailments in the '60s. Jointed rail apparently provided a "jolt" that prevented the oscillations you describe building up.

 

                        Dave 

[Covkid]

On 14/10/2023 at 07:42, andythenorth said:

Perhaps...what they actually know is what they learnt from their childhood train sets?

• big passenger locos only ever hauled matching rakes of passenger carriages, all of the same generation
• tender locos never ran tender first
• parcels consists weren't wildly mixed, they were always a neat and tidy TPO + matching vans
• big passenger locos would never be seen hauling freight
• brake vans are only ever found at the rear of a freight train
• a brake coach is always the last vehicle in a passenger train, and there's only ever one in the consist
• restaurant cars always go in the middle of a passenger consist

 

Said with much love.

Going off at a very slight tangent - "deltics never worked freight trains" should also be in that list !!!

Just because unusual events were never published does not mean they never happened. It merely means photographers barely had an 8 hour window in the depths of winter. One Friday night we worked empty bitumen tanks from Four Ashes with a pair of class 20s, initially destined for Banbury for the SR to collect. The driver signed Eastleigh and offered to work them through. When we got to Eastleigh we asked for conductors and they took us to Totton where we backed the tanks in the yard. IIRC it was 7Z29 and the choppers I think were 029 and 170, probably no photographers around to record the event

[Les1952]

On 16/10/2023 at 14:29, Covkid said:

Going off at a very slight tangent - "deltics never worked freight trains" should also be in that list !!!

Just because unusual events were never published does not mean they never happened. It merely means photographers barely had an 8 hour window in the depths of winter. One Friday night we worked empty bitumen tanks from Four Ashes with a pair of class 20s, initially destined for Banbury for the SR to collect. The driver signed Eastleigh and offered to work them through. When we got to Eastleigh we asked for conductors and they took us to Totton where we backed the tanks in the yard. IIRC it was 7Z29 and the choppers I think were 029 and 170, probably no photographers around to record the event

 

It was only comparatively recently that one of the preserved Deltics was used on some freights in the Ashington/Lynemouth area.  In their early days freight workings were definitely frowned upon (but probably not impossible).

 

On unusual workings, there was a Northbound (oil?) train off the SR that was worked by a pair of Class 33s as far as York.  If the scheduled class 37 replacements were unavailable the Class 33s continued up the East Coast Main line to Tyne Yard, bringing unusual power to the North Eastern Region.

 

Les

 

[andythenorth]

So far off topic (there should be a button to pay a small fine for this, proceeds to charity).

 

(Embed from flickr - click through for original with caption)

 

  
Also this from the Steve Banks parcels formations page:

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/images/historical/parcels/pcls_1967_1_22_d9018_2000_870_72.jpg

Edited October 17, 2023 by andythenorth

[Les1952]

1 hour ago, andythenorth said:

So far off topic (there should be a button to pay a small fine for this, proceeds to charity).

 

(Embed from flickr - click through for original with caption)

 

  
Also this from the Steve Banks parcels formations page:

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/images/historical/parcels/pcls_1967_1_22_d9018_2000_870_72.jpg

 

1981, not that far from withdrawal- A3s at that stage were being used on loose-coupled goods.  Hornby's blinker fitted A3 could well be used so, as could A4 William Whitelaw, which I saw shunting 21-ton hopper wagons at Grieveson & Whitwell's coal drops at Faverdale, Darlington.  No camera with me as I was waiting for the bus back to school at lunchtime, heard the sounds and dashed up to investigate.  Ah, the days when school lunchtimes were long enough to get a bus home, have lunch and get the bus back, indeed when there were buses enough to do it....

 

Les