Poll - Environment and Exhibitions

[PMP]

Just a quick look at travel to shows and the environment. This is to get a feel for how people access Exhibitions. Clearly there’s much more detail that could be obtained suggested figures like the car park fee, the idea is that the organiser nominates an environmental cause/project where 100% of the car park fee gets donated to put ‘something back’ in very simple terms. No car park revenue to offset any exhibition costs. We’ll assume the location is the days sole event, as obviously where you have dual community use, like a sports centre, car park fee collection would be challenging to segregate exhibition visitors parking from sport visitors.

 

 

For simplicity let’s say the environment charge on entry tickets is £2.00. This is just a number grabbed at random, first class stamp is now £1.25, so I don’t feel £2.00 is excessive.

 

Good rural transport, I’d put my village six or seven buses a day, in ‘good’ despite not being ideal. Our neighbouring village has no service and obviously is poor. Urban we’d assume a default of good but clearly that won’t be the case.

[Grovenor]

The way questions 4 and 5 are presented is wierd, IMHO. If I arrive at an exhibition, having made that my day out I'm going to pay the entry fee requested and not going to ask what the organiser is going to do with it then start haggling over bits. But if told that the ticket is a tenner but I can pay an extra fiver if I so wish I would most likely decline the optional part.

But this may depend on what and how the environmental charge is to be used for, who gets it etc.

[PMP]

25 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

The way questions 4 and 5 are presented is wierd, IMHO. 

It’s just something thought of on the fly so far from perfect, do you mean q5&6?

 

I’d expect an organiser to publicise what cause the surcharges were going to, eg local re-wilding project or nature reserve etc. This is to be transparent with how the surcharge is used, so a payee knows the sum isn’t going to support the club or organisation. Remember this is to offset the negative environmental impact the shows have, and to contribute to environmental improvements for the good of all. If applied I’d imagine the organiser would state eg £2.00 of every ticket goes to X to fund project/s 1/2/3 blah blah.

 

My thoughts were 

5/ The show charges an extra £2.00 environment surcharge. Ticket £4.00 + £2.00 env. As you’ve traveled using sustainable means (PT), would you not want to pay the environment charge as you’ve done your bit.

 

q6/ Traveling by yourself by car, (simply) you’ve had an increased environmental impact, as you’ve not been as sustainable as in q5 who uses PT to get there, therefore you’re happy paying an Env surcharge to recognise your increased impact.
 

hope that makes sense :)

Edited October 16, 2023 by PMP
Clarity I hope…

[john new]

The problem with Q1 is that if you can't due to the venue's location (most venues near where I live are off convenient bus routes) you have to answer no. Perhaps the heading should be revised to be something like:-

 

Do you drive to a show as a visitor even if you could easily reach it by public transport? 

 

I also think 7 should have a may be answer as it is so location dependant.

 

Good idea to have a poll though.

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by john new
Forgot to type in the visitor bit.

[woodenhead]

An 'environmental' charge would go down like a ton of bricks, that is basically applying a Ulez type fee on entering an exhibition.

 

In the next few years there is going to be a continued expansion of Ulez charging to encourage the most polluting vehicles to stay away, this is likely to be an evolving charge targetting the most polluting vehicles by becoming ever stricter.  Councils and Government are best placed to decide what that is not the organiser of a model railway exhibition.

 

One of the biggest arguments about the Ulez type approach is that it is the poorest people who are most affected because they cannot choose their mode of transport and forcing them onto public transport may not be a fair option.  I guess the outcome would be those that feel they dont have a choice in how they travel may vote to simply not attend.

[PMP]

3 minutes ago, john new said:

The problem with Q1 is that if you can't due to the venue's location (most venues near where I live are off convenient bus routes) you have to answer no. Perhaps the heading should be revised to be something like:-

 

Do you drive to a show as a visitor even if you could easily reach it by public transport? 

 

I also think 7 should have a may be answer as it is so location dependant.

 

Good idea to have a poll though.

 

The reason for asking Q1 is to determine how many can visit without normally requiring a car. 

 

With Q7, it was previously suggested that event parking could be deliberately excluded, if so, would you still travel to that show. Obviously if using a car you’d need to park locally somewhere. Is not having available parking a no-go item?

[woodenhead]

Another thing to consider with addtional 'environmental' fees is that could be used by organisers to greenwash an event without actually doing anything to combat environmental damage other than look good and make no difference to solo visitors in big diesels attending by car.

 

The charge would need to be sufficient to change behaviour and then be put towards something that actually aids the environment, quite what that might be I don't know.

 

Then there is the actual event - food is generally of the fast variety and mostly meat based which is a known greenhouse generator, all those layouts using electricity, how green is the green energy we supposedly enjoy after the power companies have washed themselves with certficates purchased with the sole aim of making themselves look good.  Perhaps we could run the models on batteries charged through actual solar rather than plugged into the mains during off peak?

 

It's a complicated environment and whilst I agree we all need to do more and we have to start somewhere, but it might just be a drop in an ocean.

[john new]

24 minutes ago, PMP said:

... snipped...

With Q7, it was previously suggested that event parking could be deliberately excluded, if so, would you still travel to that show. Obviously if using a car you’d need to park locally somewhere. Is not having available parking a no-go item?

It isn't for me at many venues and including events other than just train shows (concerts, drama and the like).  That said, thinking of the mod-ex shows around this region some like the SWAG day at Taunton, Beaminster, Wells and Mere have no parking at the hall, but there is parking locally, and I can't get there by bus/train. (Have visited all of those at least once). The last time I did go to the Wells show finding a car park on the Saturday was a nightmare and I haven't been to one since.  Depending on the location therefore there is a yes/no answer but it is variable.

 

There are others like all the recent Weymouth MRA shows where if I hadn't been an exhibitor but doing them as a visitor the two previous and this year's venue would be easy on PT (there is parking on those sites) so a drive versus PT choice is available. For Weymouth shows visitors do have a choice, ditto for their open days in the Upwey Hall. 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by john new
Hopefully to clarify

[PMP]

13 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Another thing to consider with addtional 'environmental' fees is that could be used by organisers to greenwash an event without actually doing anything to combat environmental damage other than look good and make no difference to solo visitors in big diesels attending by car.

 

The idea of it being a transparent and perhaps separate charge is to ensure no greenwash occurs, and the monies actually go to the cause. 
 

NB I’m thinking in terms of organisers here being for any sized show, from Warley to village hall, club/society/commerce being included. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by PMP
Add 2nd para

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, PMP said:

The idea of it being a transparent and perhaps separate charge is to ensure no greenwash occurs, and the monies actually go to the cause. 

Giving money to an environmental cause is fraught with difficulties, 'Just Stop Oil' is an environmental cause and the organiser has to do zero to actually make the exhibition greener.

 

Take GETS - what did it cost to host Making Tracks versus one of the many little layouts, it might have been the biggest show so far for GETS but that was because the space that all the other spaces used could probably have been contained within the footprint of Making Tracks - everything on one floor in one space and in it's next outing it's going to be even bigger.  Then there is Heaton Lodge, how many trucks did it take to put that on the road. 

 

Before targetting the punter perhaps look at some of these layouts being presented in what is starting to feel like a willy wangling competition though at least Making Tracks will have financially helped the cathedral and the drive the train yourself aspect would have been beneficial in introducing new blood to the scene.

[APOLLO]

14 minutes ago, PMP said:

The idea of it being a transparent and perhaps separate charge is to ensure no greenwash occurs, and the monies actually go to the cause. 
 

NB I’m thinking in terms of organisers here being for any sized show, from Warley to village hall, club/society/commerce being included. 

 

Is it just me that is getting totally sick, tired and fed up with this whole "environment" and "£££££" malarkey being rammed down our throats at every opportunity ?

 

Yes we need to look after our environment (unlike the US, India, China, Russia, and 2 large wars currently on the go etc) - NO environmental responsibility there. Environmental cost on tickets mentioned - Why ? - Where will that money disappear to ?

 

It's all £££££ these days, the above are the major polluters by far - go ask them for £££, leave me alone, I pay enough as it is.

 

As a retired Gas engineer for over 40 years, at the sharp end, I know that reliable and affordable energy going forward is the UK's greatest concern right now especially as we go into winter. The environment comes further down the list for most folks also in the current economic crisis.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PMP]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Giving money to an environmental cause is fraught with difficulties, 'Just Stop Oil' is an environmental cause and the organiser has to do zero to actually make the exhibition greener.

 

 

No easy answers, but if the organiser deliberately prevents car access eg they lock the gates of Middleshire School, they can claim they’re reducing the environmental impact by ‘forcing’ people to take PT to their show.

 

Heaton Lodge 2x 40ft trucks, 1x 7.5t, Pete’s making tracks, I think FB pictures showed five Luton top Transits. Take your pick..

[PMP]

6 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

. Environmental cost on tickets mentioned - Why ? - Where will that money disappear to ?

 

Try reading the thread, it’ll help you understand what you’re ‘commenting’ on.

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, PMP said:

No easy answers, but if the organiser deliberately prevents car access eg they lock the gates of Middleshire School, they can claim they’re reducing the environmental impact by ‘forcing’ people to take PT to their show.

 

They will just get grief from all the roads around the event for the extra traffic, the awful parking and general misery caused.

 

Car ownership and usage is like a massive oil tanker, you cannot turn it on a sixpence.  The Government's current pro-car agenda is doing absolutely nothing to encourage people onto public transport, expecting the organisers of exhititions to do it instead is unfair.  The lack of funding towards public transport outside of major cities, that trains are getting shorter not longer (outside of London) are all factors that keep people in their cars.

[PMP]

15 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

They will just get grief from all the roads around the event for the extra traffic, the awful parking and general misery caused.

 

Car ownership and usage is like a massive oil tanker, you cannot turn it on a sixpence.  The Government's current pro-car agenda is doing absolutely nothing to encourage people onto public transport, expecting the organisers of exhititions to do it instead is unfair.  The lack of funding towards public transport outside of major cities, that trains are getting shorter not longer (outside of London) are all factors that keep people in their cars.

We’re on the same page, trust me 🙂  The conversation started from posts like this in the Gets thread.

 

But as we can see from the answers on threads and the poll that I put up, that there’s no simple paradigm shift. The collective ‘we’ do have an environmental impact with exhibitions. Could we do more, possibly, but really not much, and some proposed solutions, closing car parks, might actually make people outside the hobbies life worse, with issues such as fly parking. 
 

Best rgds

PMP BS7750 award winner 😉

Edited October 16, 2023 by PMP

[APOLLO]

30 minutes ago, PMP said:

Try reading the thread, it’ll help you understand what you’re ‘commenting’ on.

 

Thread re-read, non the wiser, just another "environmental" money grab.

 

Comments re Heaton Lodge transportation etc are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I'd travel 100 miles in my 1973 V8 Rover to see that superb layout !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

 

[PMP]

19 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Thread re-read, non the wiser, just another "environmental" money grab.

 

Brit15

 

 

With respect you’re missing it by a mile. Try this one as well.

The ‘proposal’ is that exhibitions could do far better in their environmental impact. The discussion above, including not providing parking, are some of the thoughts.

[Geep7]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

With Q7, it was previously suggested that event parking could be deliberately excluded, if so, would you still travel to that show. Obviously if using a car you’d need to park locally somewhere. Is not having available parking a no-go item?

It depends on what you mean by not having available parking. If you mean no onsite parking, and there are public car parks available, then that would probably change my answer, compared to no parking available, except on the road. I have been to a couple of exhibitions in the past where there has been very little onsite parking, and therefore had to park in a nearby residential street, and almost had an altercation with a resident, as they weren't happy with us parking there. And I can see where they are coming from, as I live in a street 2 mins walk from the local railway station. But my point is, if your event starts to antagonise the local residents, they may not be happy it happening at all.

[PMP]

@Geep7

This was what prompted that particular question 

I read that as deliberately not providing parking for general visitors. I’ve assumed that blue badge parking would be covered if space on site available.

[APOLLO]

Like many problems we have re energy, environment etc it's a matter of scale.

 

Compare the no of model railway exhibitions in the UK per year, with the number of visitors etc at sports events, football in particular. Matches are cross country affairs with hundreds if not thousands travelling long distances to watch away (and home) games. This happens many, many times per year, not just football either. Car parks at many stadiums are vast.

 

What's the carbon footprint of the UK sports scene ?

 

When that is addressed (and good luck with that) then look at our piddly model railway exhibitions.

 

Brit15

 

 

[Reorte]

How I get to an exhibition? Maybe public transport if it's convenient, although that's becoming less and less likely as I find it a more and more unpleasant experience. At the other end of the scale I've walked to a couple, obviously pretty local ones! Not keen on the idea of paying any extra, not at all (if there was any extra to pay I'd rather it went to the show itself in order to ensure it keeps going!) It all feels a bit political - that doesn't mean not a worthy cause, but I don't believe in mixing it in with the show costs. The place for general measures and extra costs should really be a political one too, decided by whatever is the appropriate level of government.

[Kirby Uncoupler]

I have found something interesting with this poll,  there is a serious UK spelling mistake in Question 6.  No American spelling here please.

I do worry that some people have too much time on their hands?😄   

                                                                 Cheers, Brian.

[C126]

I do not drive for many reasons, so do not attend exhibitions inaccessable to public transport.  E.g., Gaydon in a few weeks' time: no vintage 'bus shuttle from Leamington Spa station, no attendance by me.  Simple.

 

And the poll is flawed, in forcing me to answer questions on things irrelevant (car ticket prices) before it accepts my answers.

[NBL]

Good poll @PMP

 

I travel mostly by car and a venue with no parking wouldn't stop me from going, I'd just use the nearest car park that was available and work out how I'll get to the actual venue, be it by public transport, taxi or on foot.

 

I pay for parking, even if it was for an environmental reason.  I don't grudge it, it's all park of the day out that I choose to have.

 

If the ticket price jumped a couple of quid from the previous year with no mention of what the increase was for, I wouldn't think twice, but if it was environmental, out of principle I wouldn't go.

[PMP]

2 hours ago, C126 said:

I do not drive for many reasons, so do not attend exhibitions inaccessable to public transport.  E.g., Gaydon in a few weeks' time: no vintage 'bus shuttle from Leamington Spa station, no attendance by me.  Simple.

 

And the poll is flawed, in forcing me to answer questions on things irrelevant (car ticket prices) before it accepts my answers.

The poll was just quickly run up off my phone using the forum facility, so as mentioned in the original piece it's just a quick overview. I don't know if there's a better format easily available, and if the poll is worth re-running. However it's clear that you would have a relatively small 'carbon footprint' as an exhibition visitor due to you using public transport. For events like Gaydon a visitor could attend by taking a taxi, however I realise that is likely to be unrealistic for cost reasons regardless of practicalities.