Creating a light railway backstory?

[009 micro modeller]

6 hours ago, Hando said:

In regards to the ore-carrying electric tramway in Cornwall, you're correct, it was the Camborne and Redruth Tramways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camborne_and_Redruth_Tramways

Yes, mentioned in my post above. That one is perhaps closer to a town tramway system than a light railway in some ways though?

[corneliuslundie]

The Mumbles Railway also carried freight, but the later tramcars are perhaps a bit big for the average model railway. I am pretty sure it had locomotives even after electrification.

Jonathan

[009 micro modeller]

17 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I am pretty sure it had locomotives even after electrification.

Electric locomotives?

[whart57]

This book might be of interest

 

https://tramwaytrails.blogspot.com/2013/05/freight-on-street-tramways-in-british.html

 

 

[whart57]

If you want to be a bit more creative for your electric loco then it's easy to imagine a pantograph on this beast:

 

 

Also in passenger service

 

 

These diesel electrics were built for the Rotterdam Tramway Company, which wasn't the street trams of the city of Rotterdam but a light railway serving the polders and islands of the Maas delta to the south of Rotterdam. After service there they went to Dutch Flanders, which also had 3'6" gauge tramways surviving until the 1960s.

[Nearholmer]

The “high quality garden shed” school of design did reach these shores, at Kinlochleven, where they did have pantographs.

 

 

Ted Polet built one like this for his Craig & Mertonford inspired layout, because the original C&M had an electrified off-shoot.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Ted Polet built one like this for his Craig & Mertonford inspired layout, because the original C&M had an electrified off-shoot.

Yes. Craigcorrie and Dunalistair and it has a Snaefell-inspired mountain tramway. I’ve definitely gone for the ‘electric shed’ school of design with my 009 loco so far as it’s kitbashed from an Ashover coach body (the big windows at the ends seemed equally suitable for a locomotive cab).

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, the Mumbles Railway still had at least one steam locomotive, numbered 15, at the time of its 150th anniversary celebrations.

From very vague memory (the book I have is just photos) there was freight traffic from a branch the Clyne valley. There was a connection to the LNWR line east of Victoria station.

Jonathan

[Edwardian]

How about pioneering petrol tramcars?

 

The abortive Brampton Light Railway scheme was an attempt to forge a passenger railway connection between the Cumberland town of Brampton and the national railway network, which for years had been frustrated by the opposition of the operators of the private mineral Brampton Railway and the caution of the NER. 

 

Eventually, in 1913, the NER did run a service from the town staith to the NER Brampton Junction using BTP auto-trains. This was to follow the 'Dandy Line', a short-lived and distinctly non Board of Trade compliant passenger service that the Brampton Railway had been pressured to provide in the 1880s.

 

Ten years prior to the NER's revival of services, however, the Brampton Light Railway scheme of 1903 proposed four alternative routes, three of which used the Dandy Line in whole or part, but all of which continued into the town and were, thus, tramway schemes.

 

The scheme was investigated and reported upon by S T Harrison of George Harrison & Co engineers, electricians and millwrights of Ripon.

 

In Harrison's view, an overhead electric system was too expensive. So too would be steam railcars, apparently due to the high standby costs. Harrison's proposed solution was to use petrol tramcars. It must be said here that in 1903 we are absolutely at the pioneering stage of such motive power in the UK. Steam railmotors were still in their infancy, let alone internal combustion equivalents. Whether the planned motive power would have proved practicable is in my view far from certain but planned were two "petrol motor-tramcars" of 10 hp with a capacity of 16 passengers. One of which was to be used as a standby and at peak periods. 

 

As one railcar was to be used in the main, yet two trailer cars, also of 16 passenger capacity, were specified, I wonder whether the single railcar was expected to manage both trailers. That sounds over ambitious to me.  It may have struggled with one!

 

The scheme seems to have morphed into protracted negoiations with the NER to step in, which eventually it did, but with no trams in the streets of Brampton!

 

Who might have provided the petrol tramcars is not known.  There were examples of railcars in 1903, e.g. a petrol-electric railcar of ACsEV (Arad & Csanád United Railways), built 1903/1906 ff. by Johann Weitzer AG in Arad with an internal combustion engine from De Dion-Bouton and electric equipment from Siemens-Schuckert:

 

We are aware of the rather larger and relatively underpowered pair of NER petrol-electric railcars of 1903, and, if the NER had stepped in earlier, one wonders if the line to Brampton Junction would have been one of the places to see these railcars trialled. The fact that the cars almost immediately required more powerful replacement engines illustrates the problem, and it was not until a further upgrade that, in LNER days, they could manage, apparently, a trailer. There was a constant battle, however, to keep the engines cool enough. 

 

 

Given the need to fund, approve and build the line, I would say anything in production by, say, 1905, would be a good bet for a might-have-been model of the line. Nevertheless, further examples tend to date from some years later. The tiny NER petrol inspection cars first date from 1908, the GWR No. 100 dates from 1911, and the GCR Westinghouse example from 1912. I don't claim to have made a comprehensive survey, but petrol railcars in the early 1900s are right on the cusp of the possible.  

 

Query the situation regarding skirting, if any, given the lack of steam locomotive motion, The GER G15 steam 0-4-0s had inside motion, yet were still fully skirted. Edwardian electric street trams, on the other hand, lacked side skirts, but often had suspended guard planks at the ends.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Edwardian
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[Annie]

44 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Who might have provided the petrol tramcars is not known.  There were examples of railcars in 1903, e.g. a petrol-electric railcar of ACsEV (Arad & Csanád United Railways), built 1903/1906 ff. by Johann Weitzer AG in Arad with an internal combustion engine from De Dion-Bouton and electric equipment from Siemens-Schuckert:

 

More than likely this railcar would have proved to be underpowered, but I must confess that I like it, - I like it a lot.

Cooling looks like it might have been a problem though since what looks like a radiator on the leading edge of the roof seems like it's a bit too small.

 

https://railwaymatters.wordpress.com/2020/03/09/petrol-electric-railcars/

Edited November 25, 2023 by Annie
Added a link

[whart57]

The SECR proposed petrol railcars for the Sheppey Light Railway and had a couple on trial. One was too small, only seating four passengers, but the other was big enough for the level of traffic expected. Starting on cold mornings was found to be one problem, but fortunately there were steam engines at Sheerness to provide a push. What prevented the SECR following this up though was their inability to recruit a mechanic to service the vehicle. Motor mechanics were rare beasts in early Edwardian times and they couldn't find one prepared to move to Sheerness.

[Edwardian]

44 minutes ago, Annie said:

More than likely this railcar would have proved to be underpowered, but I must confess that I like it, - I like it a lot.

Cooling looks like it might have been a problem though since what looks like a radiator on the leading edge of the roof seems like it's a bit too small.

 

I agree. I suspect pulling the skin off a rice pudding might have been a problem! One can imagine, though, English coachwork, either panelled or matchboard, married to this continental railcar.

 

I am very aware of the cooling problem from the research for the Heljan model. The picture below and in the post above is the NER railcar with the original Napier engine, which was not up to the job.

 

 

The replacement Wolseley engine required enhanced cooling provision, with pipes all over the clerestory top and a mini clerestory at the engine end, as seen on the model.

 

 

 

When the LNER engine was installed, even more gubbins went on the roof, big exhaust pipe and cooling pipes on the main roof. Sadlt these were not included on the LNER version of the model for lack of accurate data (no drawings showing these addtions were found). 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Edwardian
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[Annie]

This Westinghouse petrol electric railcar was operated in New Zealand circa 1914.  I don't know how successful this one was, but the NZGR persisted with IC railcar experiments with varying degrees of success right up to WW2 and beyond.

Like the NER one it seems to have a fair bit of cooling gubbins attached to its roof.  Apparently the NZGR one was similar to the one the GCR purchased from Westinghouse.

 

[micklner]

Yes a great shame the Radiators were not added to the Roof for the Rails LNER version. I sent my one back for that exact reason and was refunded.

Rails were told at the time of announcement the LNER version was simply wrong as presented .

Looking at the photos available it would have been a very  simple matter of confirming the sizing , and then producing the Radiators and Exhaust system as a add on part . The buyer could then have fitted it , if they wished.

It would have been much better idea, than ignoring a very prominent feature .

[Edwardian]

31 minutes ago, whart57 said:

The SECR proposed petrol railcars for the Sheppey Light Railway and had a couple on trial. One was too small, only seating four passengers, but the other was big enough for the level of traffic expected. Starting on cold mornings was found to be one problem, but fortunately there were steam engines at Sheerness to provide a push. What prevented the SECR following this up though was their inability to recruit a mechanic to service the vehicle. Motor mechanics were rare beasts in early Edwardian times and they couldn't find one prepared to move to Sheerness.

 

Good point. Two Dick Kerr small petrol-electric railcars, trialled on the Sheppey in September 1903. Brian Hart notes they were "not very successful"

 

Apparently they disliked starting on frosty mornings. Owners of older cars will sympathise. I have a feeling that Cumberland probably has an even greater propensity for frosty mornings than Kent, so the SE&CR's experience would not have boded well for Brampton. 

 

Hart adds that hot water for the radiators had to be obtained from standby steam locomotives, a luxury that would not have been available on the Brampton Light Railway as planned.

 

Still, the need to push-start the Dick Kerrs would at least replicate traditional model railway operation!

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Edwardian
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[Edwardian]

7 minutes ago, micklner said:

Yes a great shame the Radiators were not added to the Roof for the Rails LNER version. I sent my one back for that exact reason and was refunded.

Rails were told at the time of announcement the LNER version was simply wrong as presented .

Looking at the photos available it would have been a very  simple matter of confirming the sizing , and then producing the Radiators and Exhaust system as a add on part . The buyer could then have fitted it , if they wished.

It would have been much better idea, than ignoring a very prominent feature .

 

I tend to agree. These things fall victim to the combination of additional costs and relative lack of information. There were costs constraints on this project, as with all projects, as well as the fact that there were no adequate references or any drawings in the view of the developers.

 

Personally I would have liked to see the original single luggage door body tooled for, to allow the NER crimson livery as well as an early 'Tyne Electric' livery version to be done, but that would have meant tooling two bodies, and besides, no one knew what the Napier engine looked like for the crimson version.

 

Similar issues affected the LNER version. There was some discussion of providing after-maket roof fittings for the LNER version, but nothing came of it. 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Edwardian
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[Nearholmer]

In the context of an actual LR, unless it was one owned by a “big railway”, a big, bogie petrol railcar pre-WW1 is a tad unlikely, because they were very high-tech beasts, cutting edge, expensive, needing very specialist skills etc. Railcars really came to secondary railways only after the tech had become common, and had the bugs knocked-out, in road vehicles.

 

One option might be a speculative build by a manufacturer, on extended trial, maybe this excellent (and astonishingly complicated) beast:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_railcar329.htm

 

The Warwickshire Railways site has the best on-line repository of info about this one that I know of.

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

In the context of an actual LR, unless it was one owned by a “big railway”, a big, bogie petrol railcar pre-WW1 is a tad unlikely, because they were very high-tech beasts, cutting edge, expensive, needing very specialist skills etc. Railcars really came to secondary railways only after the tech had become common, and had the bugs knocked-out, in road vehicles.

 

One option might be a speculative build by a manufacturer, on extended trial, maybe this excellent (and astonishingly complicated) beast:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_railcar329.htm

 

The Warwickshire Railways site has the best on-line repository of info about this one that I know of.

 

Agree, you would have something small like the Dick Kerr examples mentioned. The Brampton requirement was for 16- seaters. With 2-occupant tramcar seats, that's only 4 rows of seats, so a rather short vehicle!

 

[Nearholmer]

A wide choice of the smaller kind was available by the early 1900s, and some secondary lines got on fairly well with them, the FYNR for one.

 

Choose from these, and this is only one maker: http://www.drewry.net/TreeMill/Drewry_cars_Gallery.html

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Annie]

23 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Choose from these, and this is only one maker: http://www.drewry.net/TreeMill/Drewry_cars_Gallery.html

Fascinating.  Not surprisingly the larger types are post-1920s vehicles.

 

I do like this one though despite it being a post-grouping railcar.  It looks very useful.

 

https://www.drewry.net/TreeMill/multimedia/Drewry1929Graces_Loco_Drew.jpg

[Nearholmer]

17 minutes ago, Annie said:

Not surprisingly the larger types are post-1920s vehicles.

The issue was really the transmission. Pre-WW1 mechanical gearboxes were only slowly inching towards being able to handle the loads inherent in the heavier sorts of railcars, which is why petrol-electric was in vogue for a while, as indeed it had been in road motor cars in the early days, and remained so longer in goods vehicles and buses. The Motor Rail & Tramcar Company in England, and Baldwin in the US were probably the front-runners in rail traction gearboxes, and MRTC built some pretty large, and very successful, tramcars, mostly for India; it was that tramcar drivetrain which was used to create the famous 20hp and 40hp tractors for “trench railways” during WW1, and developed forms of the basic design were still in production in the 1980s.

 

Spurred partly by WW1, road vehicle gearboxes got bigger and beefier so, on the back of that technology, by the 1920s simple 4W railcars could be just that bit bigger and (very slightly) heavier.

 

There were other things going on too, in that hydraulic transmissions were just becoming viable before WW1. I think one railcar and one loco were built with hydraulic transmission at that time. Also, PE, morphing into DE, didn’t die-out as a transmission for railcars. Crochat in France did good things with it for light railways, and of course it rapidly progressed in size in both locos and railcars.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

A wide choice of the smaller kind was available by the early 1900s, and some secondary lines got on fairly well with them, the FYNR for one.

 

Choose from these, and this is only one maker: http://www.drewry.net/TreeMill/Drewry_cars_Gallery.html

 

 

 

Given that Drewry advertised 10 hp railcars to seat 4, 16 hp to seat 6 and 20 hp to seat 12 (your Freshwater example), and given that these vehicles all lacked the weight of a fully enclosed body, Harrison's posited 10 hp railcar, to carry a driver plus 16 passengers and to haul at least one 16-passenger trailer, seems sheer fantasy.

 

The problem with the Drewrys is twofold, for the Brampton might-have-been. First there is the date. The range from the page you link seems to be 1909-1914. The Freshwater example was supplied in 1913. The Freshwater example was certainly a success relative to this type of early internal combustion vehicle, lasting 9 years to 1924. It was rated as a 12-seater (later 15), which included the driver, so a little short for the Brampton spec.

 

Second, they are of open design because they are mainly envisaged as inspection cars, not really ideal for passenger traffic save for warmer colonial climes. Yes, the Freshwater example carried passengers, but the climate on the Isle of Wight is kinder than that of Cumberland! Aside from the difference in temperature, I should think travelling canvas-down with the rain blowing at you is no incentive to prefer the railway to the 'bus! It is certainly well worth considering for anyone with a LR scheme on the sunny south coast, I would suggest. Something like the North Sunderland, not so much!

 

By the time we have something that would really fit the Brampton proposal, we are post the Great War; here the 1921 Drewry on Weston, Clevedon & Portishead:

 

Even this was originally supplied with open ends and canvas weather sheets for the sides:

 

 

Post War, we've come some way. The 1921 Drewry had a 35 hp 4 cylinder Baguley petrol engine with 3 speed gearbox giving it a maximum speed of 25 mph. Apparently it seated 30 with 12 standing!

 

I wish we had an illustration of the 1903 Dick Kerr examples used on the Isle of Sheppey. I wonder how closely they might have resembled the firm's electric tram cars. 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Edwardian
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[Nearholmer]

Very like this, I should think:

 

https://www.gnrsociety.com/locomotive-class/daimler-petrol-driven-car/

 

 

I’m not near my books, notes, piles of yellowing old trade magazines etc, so going from memory, but I think this is the one that ended-up as an OLE inspection and maintenance car on the LBSCR. Somewhere there is also a brilliant photo of a young OVSB driving the naked chassis of an early Daimler-engines railcar, looking like a competitor in a Gordon Bennett race.
 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

Fascinating.  Not surprisingly the larger types are post-1920s vehicles.

 

I do like this one though despite it being a post-grouping railcar.  It looks very useful.

 

https://www.drewry.net/TreeMill/multimedia/Drewry1929Graces_Loco_Drew.jpg

 

Yes, I think that's the second Drewry railcar, built in 1928 and supplied to the Southern Railway,  then going second hand to the WC&PR in 1934 

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Very like this, I should think:

 

https://www.gnrsociety.com/locomotive-class/daimler-petrol-driven-car/

 

 

I’m not near my books, notes, piles of yellowing old trade magazines etc, so going from memory, but I think this is the one that ended-up as an OLE inspection and maintenance car on the LBSCR. Somewhere there is also a brilliant photo of a young OVSB drinking the naked chassis of an early Daimler-engines railcar, looking like a competitor in a Gordon Bennett race.
 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Yes, I should think exactly like that. 

 

Double the capacity andtriplethe power of Harrison's proposed car, but Harrison;s specs don't add up and given that the 32-seat 36 hp Dick Kerr design was available by 1904, I should very likely think the Brampton LR, if built, would have tried starting with something very like this. 

 

I have a niggling feeling that the GCR had one too, though I may have misremembered that. 

 

Whether the Brampton LR would have been any more impressed than the SE&CR on the Sheppey LR is another matter, and I note the 1905 Railway Magazine article includes this comment in relation to the railcar supplied to the GNR:

 

The car does not, however, carry passengers, but makes odd journeys on the branch between the regular trains, and this fact rather leads one to the conclusion that the responsible officers of the Great Northern Railway do not like to trust their regular traffic to the chance of the mishaps likely to occur to a petrol railway motor car.

 

 

Pictires taken from your linked GNRS article