UIC yellow/red stripes in Era 6

[Bloodnok]

How universal was the application of yellow (first class) and red (catering) stripes in Era 6?

From what I can find, gangwayed stock in maroon seems to have had a pretty consistent application of the yellow line by the start of Era 6.

It's harder to tell the presence of a red line in period photos of maroon stock (which were mostly shot in black and white), but AFAICT the red line seems to have only been widely applied on Green and Blue/Grey stock. I have at least one colour photo of a Maroon Mk1 restaurant first with a half length yellow line over the seating area, and all the ones I have of a red line appear to be modern photos of coaches in preservation or as tour vehicles.

What of non-corridor stock? Did this also receive yellow lines over first class compartments? I am finding it very difficult to find any period photos at all of non-corridor stock, and by Era 6, what remained of it was already on a 'managed decline' maintenance schedule.

[Wickham Green too]

You'll have to remind most of us what you mean by 'Era 6' !

 

By the start of the blue ( and/or grey ) era application of such lines was pretty much universal ........ and non-gangwayed stock would have been mostly of the self-propelled variety.

 

Beware red lines on suburban electric units - somewhat later - those meant something rather different !.

[Bloodnok]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

You'll have to remind most of us what you mean by 'Era 6' !

 

That would be Era 6 as defined at the start by the appearance of the corporate livery (1966), and at the end by the introduction of TOPS numbering (1973).

Specifically I'm looking for information about Maroon coaches surviving into this period that would be seen alongside Blue and Blue/Grey coaches.

 

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

By the start of the blue ( and/or grey ) era application of such lines was pretty much universal

 

As far as I can tell, yellow was officially adopted in 1962, and was fairly well applied by 1966. I am assuming that most 1st class and composite coaches would have received a yellow line by 1966.

I have not yet found a single photo of a maroon coach with a red stripe in period (any I have found have proven on closer inspection to be modern repaints), whereas I do have a colour photo of a maroon catering car (a Restaurant First) with a yellow stripe above the seated area and nothing at the kitchen end. In Blue/Grey, that car would definitely have received a red stripe.

From this I am working on the assumption that red stripes were not applied to maroon stock until I find otherwise.

 

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

........ and non-gangwayed stock would have been mostly of the self-propelled variety.

 

Very little self-propelled stock carried maroon though. Some LHCS suburban stock did remain into era 6, although it was pretty much all gone by the end of era 6.

(Edit: Actually, the last suburban loco hauled coaches appear to have been withdrawn from passenger service a little later than I thought ... around 1977).

Given it's obvious and imminent demise, things like painting yellow stripes on non-corridor composites may not have been a high priority, so it's possible they didn't receive it?
 

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Beware red lines on suburban electric units - somewhat later - those meant something rather different !.

Yes, but they also weren't in maroon either!

Edited October 26, 2023 by Bloodnok

[Phatbob]

One thing I've noted from my own researches is that BR(S) were pretty prompt in adding the yellow or red stripes to their green LHCS, DEMUs and EMUs, whereas I've yet to find a picture of a green DMU with yellow stripes over the first class!  This was adopted on DMUs when repainted into blue though.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I am pretty sure the 4-REPs didn't have a red stripe on the buffet cars when they first appeared in 1967. They weren't maroon, of course, but all-over blue.

This is wrong - see below.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Jeremy Cumberland

[Bloodnok]

1 hour ago, Phatbob said:

One thing I've noted from my own researches is that BR(S) were pretty prompt in adding the yellow or red stripes to their green LHCS, DEMUs and EMUs, whereas I've yet to find a picture of a green DMU with yellow stripes over the first class!  This was adopted on DMUs when repainted into blue though.

Yes, the Southern definitely seems to have been more rapid at this than any other region.

[markw]

On 26/10/2023 at 12:55, Bloodnok said:

How universal was the application of yellow (first class) and red (catering) stripes in Era 6?

From what I can find, gangwayed stock in maroon seems to have had a pretty consistent application of the yellow line by the start of Era 6.

It's harder to tell the presence of a red line in period photos of maroon stock (which were mostly shot in black and white), but AFAICT the red line seems to have only been widely applied on Green and Blue/Grey stock. I have at least one colour photo of a Maroon Mk1 restaurant first with a half length yellow line over the seating area, and all the ones I have of a red line appear to be modern photos of coaches in preservation or as tour vehicles.

What of non-corridor stock? Did this also receive yellow lines over first class compartments? I am finding it very difficult to find any period photos at all of non-corridor stock, and by Era 6, what remained of it was already on a 'managed decline' maintenance schedule.

This website   http://www.hall-royd-junction.co.uk/Hall_Royd_Model/layout_35.html   claims E1770 and E1771 were the only maroon coaches to receive the red stripe.

 

I have seen photos of maroon GW and LMS non corridor stock with the yellow stripe but probably a relatively small number.

[markw]

21 hours ago, Phatbob said:

One thing I've noted from my own researches is that BR(S) were pretty prompt in adding the yellow or red stripes to their green LHCS, DEMUs and EMUs, whereas I've yet to find a picture of a green DMU with yellow stripes over the first class!  This was adopted on DMUs when repainted into blue though.

Green DMU with yellow stripe.  https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/18763

Green EMU with yellow stripe    

 

[F2Andy]

On 26/10/2023 at 14:02, Wickham Green too said:

Beware red lines on suburban electric units - somewhat later - those meant something rather different !.

Sorry if this is not quite on-topic, but what did it mean on EMUs?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

3 minutes ago, F2Andy said:

Sorry if this is not quite on-topic, but what did it mean on EMUs?

Compartments with no corridor. It was added in the mid-80s, I think, following some attacks on women travelling alone. By then, most non-corridor compartment stock had been withdrawn or turned into saloons, but some remained.

[Michael Hodgson]

As a matter or interest, how was the strip applied - was it a transfer, or did they paint it on the stock?

I'm assuming transfers would be the easy way if you wanted to do all of the stock quickly.

 

Also when did this practice go out of fashion and why?  I was given to understand that the original purpose was to assist passengers with limited vision, and that it was an idea that came over from the rest of Europe (who have presumably also discontinued it)

[Artless Bodger]

Interesting that the use of the cantrail stripes was a UIC invention. I had always - erroneously - thought that in the UK it was a development from the GER 'jazz' stock colours. I had read somewhere years ago that at the beginning of the blackout in ww2 the Southern painted some 1st class doors on suburban EMUs yellow, it was not perpetuated when all suburban EMUs were made 2nd class only. I'm aware that from early times many European railway administrations painted carriages different colours according to class, leading to some odd half and half schemes for e.g. KPEV composites. Post war DB painted 1sts blue, 2nds green and restaurant cars red (as in the old Mitropa colour), leading to vehicles with catering and 2nd class seating being 1/2 red, 1/2 green. When was the UIC scheme introduced? Presumably those with red / green colourblindness would not have benefitted from some combinations?

[Bloodnok]

7 hours ago, Artless Bodger said:

Interesting that the use of the cantrail stripes was a UIC invention. I had always - erroneously - thought that in the UK it was a development from the GER 'jazz' stock colours.

 

The concept of painting a line on did indeed originate with the GER, but they used different colours. The specific application of Yellow for First and Red for Catering was a UIC standard.

[steve1023]

On 26/10/2023 at 16:22, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I am pretty sure the 4-REPs didn't have a red stripe on the buffet cars when they first appeared in 1967. They weren't maroon, of course, but all-over blue.

I believe the REPs did have a red stripe, but not over the seated area, just the restaurant part of the coach.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

38 minutes ago, steve1023 said:

I believe the REPs did have a red stripe, but not over the seated area, just the restaurant part of the coach.

I've checked and I now think you're right. Blood and Custard (https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-3TC-4TC-4REP-Bournemouth-1966.html) has

Quote

On the restaurant cars with the exception of unit no.3001 the red UIC ‘catering’ cantrail band only extended along part of the coach.

and this appears to be confirmed by the photogrtaph just above this text of 3007.

 

I wonder why I firmly believed there wasn't a red line.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Jeremy Cumberland

[phil-b259]

On 26/10/2023 at 14:37, Bloodnok said:

 

That would be Era 6 as defined at the start by the appearance of the corporate livery (1966), and at the end by the introduction of TOPS numbering (1973).

Specifically I'm looking for information about Maroon coaches surviving into this period that would be seen alongside Blue and Blue/Grey coaches.

 

 

As far as I can tell, yellow was officially adopted in 1962, and was fairly well applied by 1966. I am assuming that most 1st class and composite coaches would have received a yellow line by 1966.

I have not yet found a single photo of a maroon coach with a red stripe in period (any I have found have proven on closer inspection to be modern repaints), whereas I do have a colour photo of a maroon catering car (a Restaurant First) with a yellow stripe above the seated area and nothing at the kitchen end. In Blue/Grey, that car would definitely have received a red stripe.

 

 

 

Possibly its down to something as simple as a red stripe doesn't show up very well on a maroon coloured vehicle (as opposed to red on green / red on blue or even the yellow on Maroon to signify 1st class did) so was not thought worth the bother.

[keefer]

Even in (early) blue/grey days, it wasn't guaranteed that certain catering vehicles would have a red stripe, I'm sure I've seen RK kitchen cars with no stripe and the RU in the XP64 set didn't have one. From reading Parkin, the RSO vehicles were a particular minefield, especially when converted to/from FO/SO (also whether they were renumbered when re-classified).

Into Executive/Swallow days application of red/yellow stripes on Mk3 RFM was not uniform, vehicles could have both/one/none!

Application of the red band seemed to vary, presumably according to what was signified (and decided by someone at the Works?) - was it the preparation area only, the seating area only or the whole coach?

Edited October 30, 2023 by keefer

[steve1023]

24 minutes ago, keefer said:

Even in (early) blue/grey days, it wasn't guaranteed that certain catering vehicles would have a red stripe, I'm sure I've seen RK kitchen cars with no stripe and the RU in the XP64 set didn't have one. From reading Parkin, the RSO vehicles were a particular minefield, especially when converted to/from FO/SO (also whether they were renumbered when re-classified).

Into Executive/Swallow days application of red/yellow stripes on Mk3 RFM was not uniform, vehicles could have both/one/none!

Application of the red band seemed to vary, presumably according to what was signified (and decided by someone at the Works?) - was it the preparation area only, the seating area only or the whole coach?

You are right in regard the RK with no red stripe. According to blood & custard the Fifteen Guinea special had two RKs in formation.  M80037 had the red stripe and M80028 had a blue stripe.

[Wickham Green too]

49 minutes ago, keefer said:

... - was it the preparation area only, the seating area only or the whole coach?

Presumably it was to inform Hungry Joe Public where to board the vehicle - and the kitchen area didn't normally have passenger doors ........................ not that the seating end always did !

[Bloodnok]

1 minute ago, Wickham Green too said:

Presumably it was to inform Hungry Joe Public where to board the vehicle - and the kitchen area didn't normally have passenger doors ........................ not that the seating end always did !

 

Either that or telling the great unwashed in ThirdSecond class *not* to board here and disturb the diners...