Steam era wagon tipplers

[WilltheMechanist]

would i be correct in assuming that locomotives were forbidden from moving onto a wagon tippler due to their weight?

[Fat Controller]

It would depend on the tipper, I think. Quire a lot    had a parallel 'by-pass' where the loco would  run on a rigid rail.

[Nearholmer]

Is there confusion between tipplers and weighbridges creeping in?

 

The answer is still ‘it depends’, because there were several different sorts of tipplers. The sort of end-tippler that is effectively a see-saw I don’t imagine we’re fit for locos, and many rotary-tipplers are height/width restricted, with bits that grab the wagon at the top to prevent it falling when upside down. The ones that I wonder about are the side-tipping sort where the track is on a table - I assume that whether they could or couldn’t take locos depended upon how the weight of the table was sitting when at rest.

 

As a BTW, the term ‘tippler’ sometimes also gets applied to discharge points for bottom-emptying, or gable-bottomed, or even vee or side tipping wagons, and in all of such cases that I’ve seen the track is very well supported, capable of taking locos.

 

How are your wagons to be emptied, end, bottom, tipped sideways, inverted??

[Wickham Green too]

‘it depends’ also on your locomotive : a shunting tankie* might be lighter than a fully laden 21T mineral wagon f'rinstance !

 

* shed pilot ?

[hmrspaul]

or the wagons move through by gravity and no locos go near the tippler https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/grimethorpetippler

 

Paul

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

 https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/grimethorpetippler

I'm getting {"error":"KV GET failed: 401 Unauthorized"} for that !

[hmrspaul]

Sorry I don't know how to alter this, as I'm authorised and it works for me. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/grimethorpetippler 

 

Paul

 

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Time posted

Oct 30, 13:14 PDT

Edited October 30, 2023 by hmrspaul

[WilltheMechanist]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Is there confusion between tipplers and weighbridges creeping in?

 

The answer is still ‘it depends’, because there were several different sorts of tipplers. The sort of end-tippler that is effectively a see-saw I don’t imagine we’re fit for locos, and many rotary-tipplers are height/width restricted, with bits that grab the wagon at the top to prevent it falling when upside down. The ones that I wonder about are the side-tipping sort where the track is on a table - I assume that whether they could or couldn’t take locos depended upon how the weight of the table was sitting when at rest.

 

How are your wagons to be emptied, end, bottom, tipped sideways, inverted??

 

No confusion between tipplers and weighbridges.
 

I intend to use a side tippler, like this one:

 

from the layout "Green Street" (http://www.clag.org.uk/green13.html)

[WilltheMechanist]

8 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

‘it depends’ also on your locomotive : a shunting tankie* might be lighter than a fully laden 21T mineral wagon f'rinstance !

 

* shed pilot ?

 

i was thinking either a class 08, austerity saddle tank, or an andrew barclay 0-4-0

[The Johnster]

08/Austerity both close to 50tons in working order with similar wheelbase.  Axle load is therefore about 16tons (and whaddya get).  21ton double-door or hopper wagon 28tons fully loaded, 13tons axle load.  16ton single-door wagon, 21tons fully loaded, 10.5tons axle load.  So there is a reason to exclude locomotives from tipplers, but as has been pointed out it depended on the tippler.  Interlaced rails and 'lockout bar' mechanisms might be provided if it was necessary to run locomotive over the tippler, but I suspect these would be the exception rather than the rule. 

 

Some of the coal tipplers at Cardiff Docks, the 'modern' ones at the Queen Alexandra Dock, were fed and the wagons removed from ground level by locomotives, and were self-propelled and movable; this made for a much more efficient use of wharf space but lacked the ability of older tipplers with what was effectively automatic feed and removal by gravity. 

[WilltheMechanist]

10 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

08/Austerity both close to 50tons in working order with similar wheelbase.  Axle load is therefore about 16tons (and whaddya get).  21ton double-door or hopper wagon 28tons fully loaded, 13tons axle load.  16ton single-door wagon, 21tons fully loaded, 10.5tons axle load.  So there is a reason to exclude locomotives from tipplers, but as has been pointed out it depended on the tippler.  Interlaced rails and 'lockout bar' mechanisms might be provided if it was necessary to run locomotive over the tippler, but I suspect these would be the exception rather than the rule. 

 

Some of the coal tipplers at Cardiff Docks, the 'modern' ones at the Queen Alexandra Dock, were fed and the wagons removed from ground level by locomotives, and were self-propelled and movable; this made for a much more efficient use of wharf space but lacked the ability of older tipplers with what was effectively automatic feed and removal by gravity. 

 

wagon-wise i'm planning on using either 16 ton mineral wagons or private owner 5 and 7 plank wagons, not 21 ton wagons

[The Johnster]

16ton minerals are called that because they carry 16tons of net load; as the wagon weighs 5tons empty, a fully loaded 16ton mineral wagon weighs 21tons gross, a 5ton wagon loaded with 16tons of coal.  The net load is needed for calculating the number of wagons needed to move a given tonnage, and the gross for drivers's load slips, calculating what the loco can drag up a bank, and axle loading for per.way, bridge loading, and weighbridge/tippler purposes.  A 7-planker carried 10 (later 12) ton loads, and also weighed 5tons empty, so the gross load was 15 or 17 tons.  In nearly ten years of working on the railway in the 1970s, I never once saw any sort ofmineral wagon 'light' or 'medium' loaded, they were empty or 'heavy' and that was it!

 

21ton minerals were 7ton wagons that carried 21tons of coal, 28tons all-up.

 

So your tippler needs to be capable of handling a 10.5ton axle load if it is to tip 16tons of coal.

 

For further confusion, a third figure is used for invoicing, using the wagon's tare weight.  This is fundamentally a more precise version of the weight of the empty wagons, expressed down to hundredweights and noted by the weighbridge cler, and the difference between the empty and loaded wagon noted by the weighbridge clerk is the amount used for invoicing customers.  An allowance, IIRC 8%, is made for the 'angel's share' (though you'd have thought it was demons that needed to stock furnaces) lost to wind-blown dust or rain slurry, after all that precision weighing and calculating...

Edited October 31, 2023 by The Johnster

[Michael Hodgson]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A 7-planker carried 10 (later 12) ton loads, and also weighed 5tons empty, so the gross load was 15 or 17 tons. 

 

I thought the 7-plank minerals were uprated to 13T during WW2?

I don't know whether they were downrated again after Victory, but they seem to have been replaced by the steel jobs as quickly as thhey could build them

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305125138589?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338749367&toolid=20006&customid=GB_1_305125138589.143933368458~1873891031901-g_Cj0KCQjwy4KqBhD0ARIsAEbCt6hFilhJQ4iw11iE2TsvFIZTeJ2IJQ6HqW5HOy91oWYMA3kBnEBODJ0aApYIEALw_wcB

[Dunalastair]

14 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I'm getting {"error":"KV GET failed: 401 Unauthorized"} for that !

 

Working for me now