Please help me understand if 3mm/ft is a feasible option for me

[Lacathedrale]

I have a 4' x 1' space above my desk that is crying out for a cameo layout to sit on, and I have ordered a board from Tim Horn. I'm looking at a <4mm layout in that space, and the idea is for a simple 3-4 turnout track plan of a goods-only layout using finescale standards, to contrast with 'the big layout' in the Garage, which is a 4mm passenger operations-focused terminus.  Historically I have also built a number of 2mmFS kits of rolling stock and a couple of steam locomotives, and one finished layout.

 

For my cameo, one option I'm very strongly considering is 3mm/ft finescale somewhere north of the Tyne in the Post-Steam / Early 70's era. My inlaws are from Alnwick so that's ripe for influence (although the scale somewhat outstrips what I can model), but it will also give me an opportunity to build and enjoy some of the BR-era freight stock that I've so far never really touched.

 

3mm/ft itself has been something of a white whale for me - I’ve taken a run at it a couple of times and just bounced off when it came to actually putting anything together, so  this is where the major question for this sub-forum comes in - please help me believe that in the year of our lord 2023, with 'easy' options like TT120 and 2mmFS and RTP P4 track - that 3mm/ft layout built in 14.2mm gauge is a feasible choice.

 

It seems there are two challenges

1. Motive power motorisation: More specifically while I am happy to cross Lincoln Locos palm with £45 for a loco body, the £70 per loco from LocosNStuff feels like a hefty chunk of change despite the quality - and with a need to still build a chassis. My 2mmFS vehicles have all been steam locos with gears/bearings set up as part of the chassis etch.
   
   How do I go about building my own bogies? Are there any guides available on scratchbuilding? I'm just not sure how it all works in 3D space!
    
2. Rolling stock availability: the relatively unknown stock and availability for kits and components. For example, I am quite uneasy that the only place to buy 14.2mm wheels is via postal order to one person (who presumably produces them out of the goodness of his heart), and though the 3mm Price List shows thousands of items, many of those I've historically enquired after are not available. For example, almost 400 of PP63  'LNER 13T Open', but 0 of PP38 SR Ventliated Van.
   
    I don’t think the stock I’m looking at is particularly esoteric: a Class 24, Class 17, conflats, mineral wagons, coal hoppers, various kinds of vans and the odd tank wagon. But the odd stock levels eats away at my confidence this is a sustainable option.
   
   What is the reality of the stock and kit situation?

 

I know that ultimately the choice of scale and gauge is not the deciding factor in success or failure, but if I had the choice of building the same layout in 2mm, 3mm or 4mm - with everything else being equal - then I think I would choose 3mm for the balance of size and scale.

 

I would love to hear experiences or opinions on any of this. Thank you!

[TT100 Diesels]

Hi Lacathedrale,

 

First question is are you 3mm society member? 

 

This gives access to the shop. Point 2 rolling stock you want should be available as kits and no problem with 14.2 axles. A lot of wagon kits are available from the shop, parkside and the like. Can't guarantee they have everything you want, but stocks are (anecdotally) pretty good, but the odd one may well be out of stock, but its overall quite healthy stock situation.

 

Point 1 motive power, 17 and 24 dead easy on 12mm, now available as ready to roll from lincoln locos. I am not sure if Lenny is yet able to offer this in 14.2. You could ask via the contact option on his web site.

 

Again, the society do etched diesel bogies so would enable 14.2, but motors and gears do need a bit of research, (3mm shop have some and so do 3MSR) but again if a member, question on the egroup usually solves problems. Would also required cosmetic side frames, Lenny did these as whitemetal but now they are integral 3d prints on the ready to roll chassis. Again, might be worth asking what side frames he might still have in stock via his web site contact.

 

I myself am 12mm and very much into Lenny's Lincoln Locos one stop shop, so am not so up on the finer points of 14.2, so sorry only giving a generalistic feel above.

 

There are one or two 14.2 folk on here, who hopefully can put more meat on the bone.

 

Cheers

 

TT100 Diesels

[Lacathedrale]

Hi @TT100 Diesels

 

I am a lapsed member, as I said I've tried 3mm/ft a few times and not made much progress. I think it might be different now for a few reasons: 

• I have proper equiptment: not only experience scratchbuilding, but also a 3D printer, a lathe, and a mill
• Rather than trying to boil the ocean and switch all my modelling to 3mm, I'm looking for a self-contained small layout
• Aforementioned small layout has a completely non-overlapping era/location to my other efforts

 

Regarding your other points:

• Locos Lincoln do not provide 14.2mm locos, only 12mm - and do provide cosmetic bogie frames.
• Though I'm sure the LnS bogies are a fantastic product, I would prefer to learn how to build the bogies myself!

 

I'm not adverse to spending money when it's appropriate and I appreciate the membership dues aren't all that onerous - but I've paid them three (?) times and never got as far as laying a strip of track down before the relative ease/practicality of 2mm and 4mm swayed me back.

 

This time, I want to be sure.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Lacathedrale

[TT100 Diesels]

Hi,

 

To be honest, I am not really the sort of person to be able to provide "deep" advice on 14.2. I dabble in 12mm and get by, and follow the path of least resistance, i.e. Peco HOm track, LL locos mainly, doing up triang stock, some kits, a bit of kit bashing etc. It suits my purposes and I am happy.

 

All I can say really is if you want to take a punt on the £20 membership fee, you get access to the shop and also the egroup where a lot of the fine scale / 14.2 modellers reside, just the sort of people like you who dabble in 3d print, have engineering tools available like you. Folk that are way above my levels of knowledge when it comes to properly building stuff.

 

Otherwise, like you say, there are other modelling scales open to you which you may feel more comfortable with. 

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

Cheers

 

TT100 Diesels

[Gordon A]

Given that you are restricted to a 4 x 1 base board you ought to be looking at the length points for each scale, combined with what you want to achieve.

You would be able to achieve an inglenook style layout in all three scales.

Would your stock use commercial couplings as fitted or will you be using the buffers as per the prototype for propelling moves?

What size locos would you want to use? That length plus a couple of wagons will dictate where your first point would be placed.

Have a look at Ian Rice's and James Hillton's books on small layout designs.

 

[Lacathedrale]

@Gordon A - I am looking at an Ian Futers-style plan - an inglenook with a headshunt off the outermost siding, representing a 'bitsa' station.

 

I have already read and enjoyed a good deal of Rice and Hilton, and I'm fairly happy with my design and ideas for the space, really - three B6 turnout  represent about 2'3" in 3mm as far as I can make it, which yields 11" either side for plain track.

 

The visible cameo is designed to sit on my shelf when not in use, but I have a large bookcase it can sit on when operating and I'm expecting to use a 2' fiddle yard extension when doing so to make the design properly operable.

 

I'm mostly concerned about a) being able to built the mechanisms for diesel bodies I can source from Lincoln Locos and b) the idiosyncrasies of 3mm when it comes to availability.

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Lacathedrale

[Lacathedrale]

For what it's worth, I spent more on lunch today than a society membership so for the sake of experimentation I have re-joined and put some orders in for track and rolling stock - I'm sure I'll regret this!

 

Thanks,

William

[TT100 Diesels]

Great stuff, once you get your membership pack through, I would urge you to join the egroup, you need to do it through the membership sec, he is the moderator.

 

There are a lot of fine scale / 14.2 / scratch builders / chassis - mech builders on there. It is the place to throw all your questions into the ring. Also, you will get access to the shop, Richard who runs it is a very helpful chap (and on the egroup) and also a 14.2 builder (the lot, steam, diesel, electrics, MUs) so he knows the score so to speak.

 

However, very few are on here, hence being serious about 3mm it is worth the price of lunch to access these fonts of knowledge.

 

Unfortunately, you get me here, I am at the opposite end of the 3mm scale, I err towards TT rather than fine scale and am not a builder.

 

But anyway, welcome to the 3milliverse (again), I very much hope it goes to plan for you, and I for one look forward to seeing your cameo / plank come to life.

 

Cheers and good luck,

 

TT100 Diesels

 

[TT-Pete]

6 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

 I have re-joined and put some orders in for track and rolling stock - I'm sure I'll NOT regret this!

 

There, fixed it for you. :^) Just to re-iterate everything @TT100 Diesels has said, get on the e-group and ask, I can guarantee that from 10 modellers you will get at least 13 opinions. AFAIK the Geoff Helliwell 8'6" and 10'6" wheelbase power bogie kits can be built to 14.2, so no excuses. :^)

 

Just a reminder that the Society Shop (members only) is here: https://sites.google.com/site/3mmpublic/products/catalogue

And that 3SMR also do a variety of bits: https://www.3smr.co.uk/ (The handbuilt 14.2 pointwork is apparently rather good: https://www.3smr.co.uk/track14mm.html)

 

Good luck and have fun! (And please post here to let us know how you get on).

 

Peter.

 

[bradfordbuffer]

Welcome back....to 3mm weird world!

I know you say you want to mate your own bogies but can't go wrong with loconstuff bogies for 14.2mm although I did adjust b to b a bit but runs well through British finescale point link to vid I've posted before.  Haven't tried his new cordless motor bogies yet...if ordering ask for 'wires passing through to top makes linking bogies simple. 

If you want my b to b mesuments pm me and I will dig it out

Plenty of Stl files in thingiverse notable ones are ironmink designs 

 

[MarshLane]

On 14/11/2023 at 14:35, Lacathedrale said:

For what it's worth, I spent more on lunch today than a society membership so for the sake of experimentation I have re-joined and put some orders in for track and rolling stock - I'm sure I'll regret this!

 

Thanks,

William

 

Hi William,

Sorry for the late reply, only just seen your thread.  I have dabbled with 2FS, thoughts of EM, and actively modelled in 4mm OO and 7mm O gauge, not to mention narrow gauge and standard gauge!  

 

The one thing that dabbling with 2FS has taught me is that no matter how much planning, interest, theory and plans you have, the only way to go forward is to jump in and try it.   Work initially with something small, if it goes wrong, you can throw it away without wasting much (if any) money and attack the problem from a different point of view.  I long looked at people on here and thought I wouldn't have the skill to do that.  But (possibly with getting older!) I came round to the realisation that skills are developed, because you don't have a skill this year doesn't mean you won't do things that develop that skill next year.

 

I joined the 3mm Society initially with the idea of acquiring some Code 60 rail for a 009 narrow gauge layout.  But then I got sent the wagon kit with the members pack.  Built it as something different to do one evening, it came out well and I thoroughly enjoyed it.  Showed a friend who then decided he might go down the 3mm road, and I ended up putting a brass coach from Worsley Works together for him - not my finest work, I subsequently took it all apart, cleaned it up and built it again!  He subsequently decided that being in his 60s he was too old (his words!) to change, and stayed with 4mm, and 'gifted' me the few things I'd built for him.

 

Now I am working on a small 3mm 14.2mm diorama with some wagons, a couple of carriage sidings to display the coaches and I am going to try scratch building the chassis for a small LNER tank, with aspirations to get to something a bit bigger.  The point of all of this is to say, don't give up, give it a try - start small maybe build a coach, and scratch build the bogies to go under it (you can get the bogie detail sides from the Society Shop) if that works, then a diesel bogie is much the same, but with a few extra calculations for the motor.

 

Above all else, shout if you get stuck - possibly on one of the scratch building or kit building threads on rmweb and you'll probably get more help - but keep the 3mm section up-to-date on your progress, oh and the egroup of course!  Talking of which over Christmas I may find some time to get my thread started on here!

 

Richie

[PaulCheffus]

1 hour ago, MarshLane said:

I came round to the realisation that skills are developed, because you don't have a skill this year doesn't mean you won't do things that develop that skill next year.

Hi

 

Thats one of the best comments I’ve seen in a long while. My skills have been acquired over forty or so years and I’m still learning.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Lacathedrale]

That’s definitely a growth mentality - the idea that challenges are overcome, rather than insurmountable. 
 

My packages of stock have arrived, so I’m going to keep my head down until I have something to show - one of my personal failings is in the need for validation, so I’m going to try and work on that at the same time!

Edited November 20, 2023 by Lacathedrale

[MarshLane]

4 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

That’s definitely a growth mentality - the idea that challenges are overcome, rather than insurmountable. 
 

My packages of stock have arrived, so I’m going to keep my head down until I have something to show - one of my personal failings is in the need for validation, so I’m going to try and work on that at the same time!

Logical thought - but also I find that when I post something, its not validation, its just to say hey this is what I am doing today - it almost gives me an incentive to get the next bit done.  But very much each to their own, especially when real life gets in the way!

 

Also remember your not limited to this thread, so you could just pop a picture and a few quick works on the 'Whats on my 3mm Workbench' thread.

 

Glad your bits and pieces have arrived - I think I have caused the 3mm Sales chap a headache today with my order! Oops!!  But whatever you do, take your time (there's no rush!) but make sure you enjoy what your doing!  Challenges are definitely there to be overcome and learnt from, but remember the old adage, if at first you dont succeed .... dont throw it at the wall and give up! 😆 Walk away calmly, breathe and come back another day!

 

Good luck with the journey, I'll keep following your progress.

 

[bradfordbuffer]

55 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

Logical thought - but also I find that when I post something, its not validation, its just to say hey this is what I am doing today - it almost gives me an incentive to get the next bit done.  But very much each to their own, especially when real life gets in the way!

 

Also remember your not limited to this thread, so you could just pop a picture and a few quick works on the 'Whats on my 3mm Workbench' thread.

 

Glad your bits and pieces have arrived - I think I have caused the 3mm Sales chap a headache today with my order! Oops!!  But whatever you do, take your time (there's no rush!) but make sure you enjoy what your doing!  Challenges are definitely there to be overcome and learnt from, but remember the old adage, if at first you dont succeed .... dont throw it at the wall and give up! 😆 Walk away calmly, breathe and come back another day!

 

Good luck with the journey, I'll keep following your progress.

 

quite agree!

posts can....

• encourage others
• educate others
• with some comments on other posts infuriate! .....i too can post this type on occasions some times unintentionally, there should be a post icon and a are you sure you want to post?
• show what's available in less mainstream scales
• amalgamate several ideas from several view point
• provide entertainmant
• plus many more 

also validation.....nothing wrong with that.

G

[Red Devil]

Only just read this thread.....

Couple of thoughts....

I'm very much in the same situation....'newish' to 3mm but done plenty of other stuff, fancy it is a self contained sideline. 

Loco mechs I just decided to do my own thing and so far so good, If I can hash up a reasonable working chassis I'm sure you can....You most definitely have more available kit than myself! Things I've found so far..... Alan Gibson P4 disc 10.5 wheels work ok in my chassis builds and sail through the 14.2 British Finescale points without issue....why them, because I had them in stock for other things, will I swap to 3mm wheels possibly but they work to get something up and running easily. Motors, gears etc absolutely loads of stuff out there but might take a bit of thinking about!

Nowt wrong with posting up, think everyone might need a bit of help and validation when doing something out of their comfort zone, I certainly do or at least hope to raise a smile with 'what's this imbecile up to now' 😄

Anyway nice to see someone else sat there going' 'how do I build this' rather than bemoaning the lack of xyz rtr in whatever scale (tongue semi in cheek here but that's why I decided to have a bash at 3mm/14.2 'cos I like build stuff)

All the best with it.......

 

[bradfordbuffer]

2 hours ago, Red Devil said:

Only just read this thread.....

Couple of thoughts....

I'm very much in the same situation....'newish' to 3mm but done plenty of other stuff, fancy it is a self contained sideline. 

Loco mechs I just decided to do my own thing and so far so good, If I can hash up a reasonable working chassis I'm sure you can....You most definitely have more available kit than myself! Things I've found so far..... Alan Gibson P4 disc 10.5 wheels work ok in my chassis builds and sail through the 14.2 British Finescale points without issue....why them, because I had them in stock for other things, will I swap to 3mm wheels possibly but they work to get something up and running easily. Motors, gears etc absolutely loads of stuff out there but might take a bit of thinking about!

Nowt wrong with posting up, think everyone might need a bit of help and validation when doing something out of their comfort zone, I certainly do or at least hope to raise a smile with 'what's this imbecile up to now' 😄

Anyway nice to see someone else sat there going' 'how do I build this' rather than bemoaning the lack of xyz rtr in whatever scale (tongue semi in cheek here but that's why I decided to have a bash at 3mm/14.2 'cos I like build stuff)

All the best with it.......

 

The wheels used where they the 10.5 lowmac 4007?

G

[Red Devil]

7 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

The wheels used where they the 10.5 lowmac 4007?

G

4S07, 4007 is the 00 version of that but yeah in effect  the P4/S4 version of the 10.5 lowmac wheels....

I have both and found even the 00 version works.

[bradfordbuffer]

33 minutes ago, Red Devil said:

4S07, 4007 is the 00 version of that but yeah in effect  the P4/S4 version of the 10.5 lowmac wheels....

I have both and found even the 00 version works.

Tar very much