Big 4 pre-nationalization container diagrams

[Evertrainz]

It is my impression that in the decade or two before nationalization, companies built their own conflat “door to door” containers to diagrams that were very similar to the eventual BR container, but differed slightly in some proportions.

 

Does anyone know if a diagram book or published book/reference has drawings for these containers? Looking for all 4 - I can occasionally find LNER or GWR containers drawings snooping around on the net but I’m looking for a comprehensive resource.

[Fat Controller]

45 minutes ago, Evertrainz said:

It is my impression that in the decade or two before nationalization, companies built their own conflat “door to door” containers to diagrams that were very similar to the eventual BR container, but differed slightly in some proportions.

 

Does anyone know if a diagram book or published book/reference has drawings for these containers? Looking for all 4 - I can occasionally find LNER or GWR containers drawings snooping around on the net but I’m looking for a comprehensive resource.

There might be something on the Barrowmere site:- http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

[Evertrainz]

7 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

There might be something on the Barrowmere site:- http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

 

Barrowmore has extensive info on BR built containers, but I was wondering if there were any resources specifically for older designs. 

 

I think I saw or heard about a book titled detailed “inherited prenationalization stock and containers” but now I can’t find it, of course..

[philip-griffiths]

LMS Wagons Volume 2 - Essery OPC.  

 

https://www.awesomebooks.com/book/9780860932550/an-illustrated-history-of-lms-london-midland-and-scottish/used?gclid=CjwKCAiA0syqBhBxEiwAeNx9Nw141ijX9IdLGAO-v7Ux0FUfEPcLSbYre7iTfP8frWUSEekaz0RnSBoCRSsQAvD_BwE

 

is your source for these.  There are guys who are drawing these up for 3-d printing.  

[Cwmtwrch]

38 minutes ago, Evertrainz said:

I think I saw or heard about a book titled detailed “inherited prenationalization stock and containers” but now I can’t find it, of course..

'The Acquired Wagons of British Railways Volume 4: General Merchandise Vans & Containers, Special Purpose Vans & Cattle Wagons', David Larkin, perhaps? I don't have it, so no idea about actual content, I'm afraid.

[philip-griffiths]

I’d also speak to @Carlislecitadel2

[Wickham Green too]

On 14/11/2023 at 15:51, Evertrainz said:

... before nationalization, ... containers ... were very similar to the eventual BR container, but differed slightly in some proportions. ...

Not only different in proportions but often in materials ( BR containers were far from standardised anyway ). Each of the main wagon reference volumes has details of containers of the appropriate railway - and the Line Societies probably hold details that couldn't be squeezed into those.

[Hal Nail]

On 14/11/2023 at 17:24, Cwmtwrch said:

'The Acquired Wagons of British Railways Volume 4: General Merchandise Vans & Containers, Special Purpose Vans & Cattle Wagons', David Larkin, perhaps?

 

Whilst a good book generally, it doesn't go into any depth on containers, although it does have an ex LMS one on the front cover!

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Hal Nail

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Whilst a good book generally, it doesn't go into any depth on containers, although it does have an ex LMS one on the front cover!

 

The go-tos are definitely the wagon books dedicated to individual pre-Nationalisation railways.

 

You'll find diagrams, dimensions - in fact, all you need to model containers.

 

CJI.

[Wickham Green too]

... except, perhaps, comprehensive livery details ..... there were some very elaborate schemes in the early-to-mid grouping period but were they retained at works visits ?

[cctransuk]

12 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

... except, perhaps, comprehensive livery details ..... there were some very elaborate schemes in the early-to-mid grouping period but were they retained at works visits ?

 

I strongly suspect that such information, beyond monochrome works photos, no longer exists.

 

CJI.

[Evertrainz]

On 17/11/2023 at 05:20, cctransuk said:

 

The go-tos are definitely the wagon books dedicated to individual pre-Nationalisation railways.

 

You'll find diagrams, dimensions - in fact, all you need to model containers.

 

CJI.

At the risk of sounding demanding - is there a list or commonly accepted book for each of these rlys’ wagons? Similar to the Don Rowland 500K book for BR wagons.

 

Sorry, there are just so many books to choose from, and being in the US I don’t want to risk waiting 6 weeks shipping to receive a book that I haphazardly ordered. I’ve never really looked into pre-nationalization days so I’m a newcomer in that respect.

 

Any gents (or ladies!) have pointers to which book I should be after for each railway? I do think the scope of LMS book that was linked above would be perfect.

[Wickham Green too]

For the Southern there's a series of five books - one for each principal predecessor, one for the Southern itself ( https://onlineshop.oxfam.org.uk/an-illustrated-history-of-southern-wagons-volume-four-first-edition/product/HD_301768332?pscid=ps_ggl_OOS+-+Performance+Max+-+ROAS+(Books)_&crm_event_code=20REUWWS08&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIha3y9KbOggMV9otQBh3vqwhTEAQYASABEgKuRPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds ) and a final one for extra info ................... a search for 'southern railway wagons book' will find them all - at various prices !

[Evertrainz]

10 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

For the Southern there's a series of five books - one for each principal predecessor, one for the Southern itself ( https://onlineshop.oxfam.org.uk/an-illustrated-history-of-southern-wagons-volume-four-first-edition/product/HD_301768332?pscid=ps_ggl_OOS+-+Performance+Max+-+ROAS+(Books)_&crm_event_code=20REUWWS08&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIha3y9KbOggMV9otQBh3vqwhTEAQYASABEgKuRPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds ) and a final one for extra info ................... a search for 'southern railway wagons book' will find them all - at various prices !

Ah thanks! Does it have drawings of conflat and containers? 

 

If so, that’s LMS and SR checked of……

 

There is also an “LNER Wagons vol. 4B” that caught my eye.. does anyone know if it contains drawings of containers?

[Wickham Green too]

YES an YES ........................... as does https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=31423841967&ref_=ps_ggl_2039220669&cm_mmc=ggl-_-UK_Shopp_Tradestandard-_-product_id=UK9780905878072USED-_-keyword=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3MmBiKzOggMVVfHtCh0F6AqSEAQYBiABEgJKoPD_BwE 

 

Trouble with containers is there was such a bewildering variety that no ( existing ) publication covers them comprehensively.

[Evertrainz]

10 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

YES an YES ........................... as does https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=31423841967&ref_=ps_ggl_2039220669&cm_mmc=ggl-_-UK_Shopp_Tradestandard-_-product_id=UK9780905878072USED-_-keyword=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3MmBiKzOggMVVfHtCh0F6AqSEAQYBiABEgJKoPD_BwE 

 

Trouble with containers is there was such a bewildering variety that no ( existing ) publication covers them comprehensively.

Wonderful! Suppose my wallet will be taking a diet over the next few days

 

At least for grouping stock, my goal is just to model the most representative wagons ie the ones that had survived natural selection in BR steam+diesel days.

 

So far I’m looking at:

- LMS steel chassis for BR&BM etc

- LNER Conflat S in 9 and 10’ wbs

- GWR Conflat A

- SR… (tbd)

 

For the containers, it’d likely be the most of the lot. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Evertrainz

[Cwmtwrch]

Generally only grouping containers built from the late-1930s onwards lasted beyond about 1960, and those only for a few more years.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Cwmtwrch

[Wickham Green too]

9 minutes ago, Evertrainz said:

... - SR… (tbd) ...

I don't know what scale you're working in but there were ALMOST kits for both short and long S.R. variants in 4mm scale : David Geen included the short one in his pricelists ( I'm not sure whether 9' or 10' wheelbase ) but he never got patterns made for the castings - the Conflat D is still shown on the MARC Models website as 'coming soon' but Mike Radford is not well and I doubt if anything's available. ☹️

[Evertrainz]

5 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I don't know what scale you're working in but there were ALMOST kits for both short and long S.R. variants in 4mm scale : David Geen included the short one in his pricelists ( I'm not sure whether 9' or 10' wheelbase ) but he never got patterns made for the castings - the Conflat D is still shown on the MARC Models website as 'coming soon' but Mike Radford is not well and I doubt if anything's available. ☹️

It will be VR (virtual scale) ;).

 

If you see some prior posts of mine you can see what I’m talking about, but essentially I’ll draw them up in a 3D program.

 

I believe the “short” SR conflat was 9’ only, in vac and unfitted configs. I’d be happy to be proven wrong though.

[Wickham Green too]

Diagram 1382 9' wb & dia.1399 10'wb.

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, Evertrainz said:

- GWR Conflat A

There were a number of slightly different diagrams of GWR conflat A. As discussed elsewhere on RMWeb, not a huge number of photos of them in BR days though - in fact to be honest in all my late 50s books, nearly all the photos are of the BR built ones. Funnily enough there is an ex GWR H10 in the acquired wagons book mentioned earlier but I wouldn't buy that just for containers.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Evertrainz]

Don’t mind the inaccurate running gear, but a quick basis for FM/BM type shorter containers.

[jwealleans]

On 14/11/2023 at 15:51, Evertrainz said:

... in the decade or two before nationalization ...

 

Railways built containers in the 1830s.   You can keep going back and back.   The Big 4 started to really investigate and stimulate the traffic from around 1928 (I am heavily biased towards the LNER in my knowledge of this history).   As it grew the RCH became more involved and standards started to evolve, but the 1930s were a period of experimentation and development before it all came under the BR umbrella.   Someone has referenced Carlislecitadel above: these are 3D prints I have recently finished which he was kind enough to supply:

 

 

 

These are on Diagram 76 conflats of my own construction.   I have previously made masters for the D108 conflat, converted from cattle wagons, which were resin cast for me by Graeme King:

 

 

The container is from UNIT models, reliveried.  It is too large.  Prior to those, for the Grantham layout, I made masters for the Diagram 15 meat container and matching diagram 60 conflat which were also resin cast by Graeme.  All these castings are still available from him along with an early LNER A type container from a master by Caroline Middleditch of this parish.

 

 

For LNER containers and conflats, Tatlow Volume 4B referenced above has most of what you'd need.   There's an excellent article on the development of both traffic and containers by Tony Miller in an LNER Society publication if you want more background, but for strictly technical details Tatlow is your best source.

 

[Carlislecitadel2]

Hi folks,

Yes some containers have been drawn up and will be released shortly. They are mostly LMS examples, but some are LNER only. Several, such as the Butterly containers, the D and the BX were used by more than one company. However we (Sascha Freudenberg and myself) would prefer to get pre-nationalisation transfers sorted for them first so that we can point people towards a source for finishing these delightful items.I need to extract a digit in that regard. I should say up front that it is Sascha who has done all the hard work with regards to the drawing these for 2mm and I just offer the odd comment on his initial drawings and test print them in 4mm on my Ender 3 S1. In addition to Jonathan's wonderfully finished examples, here are a few more items as a taster of what will be to come. These have all been printed already, as some of the other images attest but please bear in mind that they will look better in resin than what I have achieved so far in FDM. Other containers are in the pipeline too and we are discussing the possibility of getting containers wagons made available from other sources.

[Carlislecitadel2]

Hi folks,

The diminutive H type was used by the LMS, GWR, LNER and BR in large numbers. The 6 plank D type was also used by the LNER, LMS, BR and the GWR, the latter with a curved lid (also modelled by Sascha). The prints below are some of my tests prints, some quite early attempts, all on a 04mm nozzle on the Ender 3 S1. I was experimenting with different layer heights, print speeds, etc. The last shot of the steel LMS A types were done using a 0.2mm nozzle. The one on the right was sliced in Cura while the one on the left was sliced in Prusa. The Prusa definitely gives sharper results, though all FDM prints need some degree of cleaning up. I should have switched to a 0.2mm nozzle much earlier and I plan to revisit all these designs with a 0.2mm nozzle over the coming months. Phil Griffiths has seen the results improve over time at the Ulster Model Railway Club sessions.