Five volunteers SUSPENDED from NYMR

[papagolfjuliet]

Re: an earlier post the NYMR has now puy the New Bridge steam craen up for sale. That should keep certain people in the manner to which they are accustomed for a while longer. Page 10 here.

 

"Buyer to remove from railway" of course means "You may not keep that thing on my train set."

 

https://www.tractionads.co.uk/TRACTION_-_ROLLING_No_151.pdf

Edited April 13 by papagolfjuliet

[Johann Marsbar]

1 hour ago, papagolfjuliet said:

Re: an earlier post the NYMR has now puy the New Bridge steam craen up for sale. That should keep certain people in the manner to which they are accustomed for a while longer. Page 10 here.

 

"Buyer to remove from railway" of course means "You may not keep that thing on my train set."

 

https://www.tractionads.co.uk/TRACTION_-_ROLLING_No_151.pdf

 

I did spot that being mentioned as being for sale on National Preservation at the beginning of last week. 

Was surprised how may Rapier cranes of that period are preserved in the UK though.....    http://www.bdca.org.uk/ukcranes.html

...and thats without any which might survive overseas.

[john new]

8 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

Re: an earlier post the NYMR has now puy the New Bridge steam craen up for sale. That should keep certain people in the manner to which they are accustomed for a while longer. Page 10 here.

 

"Buyer to remove from railway" of course means "You may not keep that thing on my train set."

 

https://www.tractionads.co.uk/TRACTION_-_ROLLING_No_151.pdf

What is the background; is it just the NYMR needs the money it will raise or is it a basket case job? Do they have decent non-steam cranes as alternatives for lifting in the civils yard where cranes are useful, arguably essential? Seems yet another potentially useful asset just ignored by the NYMR. 

[papagolfjuliet]

9 hours ago, john new said:

What is the background; is it just the NYMR needs the money it will raise or is it a basket case job? Do they have decent non-steam cranes as alternatives for lifting in the civils yard where cranes are useful, arguably essential? Seems yet another potentially useful asset just ignored by the NYMR. 

 

It was withrawn a few years ago because it needed a new set of ropes. The P-Way dept - or rather the York Area Group - also has a Plasser 12T self-propelled crane, a 20T Coles crane, and a 15T Coles crane, but there is nothing at that end of the line with the lifting capacity of the crane being disposed of and, as has been stated, nothing bar a second Coles fifteen tonner which belongs to the NYMR itself. If the MPD 45T crane is withdrawn for whatever reason then there will be no backup for it capable of large loco lifts.

[john new]

So another one to add to the NYMR’s run something into the ground then dump it list. 

[Northmoor]

7 minutes ago, john new said:

So another one to add to the NYMR’s run something into the ground then dump it list. 

They are in good company, I would suggest most preserved railways have done this to rolling stock more than once.

 

In the NYMR's defence, while replacing the cable is probably a relatively affordable component, is it a sensible use of resources if as @papagolfjuliet states, they already have three other cranes of up to 20T capacity?  For the relatively few occasions when a >20T lift is required (even a decent sized loco boiler should be within that), it may be much more cost-effective to hire in a road crane.

[Cwmtwrch]

51 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

In the NYMR's defence, while replacing the cable is probably a relatively affordable component

I would have thought that a wire rope rated for 45 tons [plus a safety margin] and of a very specific length, is likely to have a noticable influence on the sale price of a crane, as without it the crane is effectively useless. Not only is the boiler of a steam crane subject to inspection, but so is the rope, particularly on a crane which is only used irregularly. There is a lot of paperwork to go with it as well. Unless you have a real need for it, keeping such a crane in certification is likely to be demanding on staff time for limited returns, and requires someone competent to carry out inspections; insurance is dependent on compliance.

[papagolfjuliet]

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

 

 

In the NYMR's defence, while replacing the cable is probably a relatively affordable component, is it a sensible use of resources if as @papagolfjuliet states, they already have three other cranes of up to 20T capacity?  For the relatively few occasions when a >20T lift is required (even a decent sized loco boiler should be within that), it may be much more cost-effective to hire in a road crane.

 

Three problems there. The first is that getting the Plasser crane working cost more than the ropes for the steam crane would have, the second is that I would not like to try to get a large road crane round the back lanes and down the long 1 in 3 Esk Valley Bank to Grosmont MPD, and the third is that there are many locations on the NYMR where there is no road access at all (which is why the second steam crane was purchased from BR in the first place, to enable bridge deck replacement work deep in Newtondale) which means that without both 45T cranes available the NYMR has had to spend a fortune hiring in a Volker Rail Kirov crane when replacing Bridge 30 and the Goathland bridges.

 

And of course they do have the competent personnel necessary to run a large steam crane; the Grosmont crane is in service and the NYMR has been using such things  continuously since it borrowed the NER 25T steam crane from the NRM in the mid-70s.

Edited April 14 by papagolfjuliet

[Wheatley]

5 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

without both 45T cranes available the NYMR has had to spend a fortune hiring in a Volker Rail Kirov crane when replacing Bridge 30 and the Goathland bridges.

I thought they got the Kirow either for free or at a greatly reduced rate - because NYMR is a charity Volker Rail could write it off as corporate social responsibility. There was something about them sharing a trustee/director too. 

 

Likewise the last Moorsline I read before my membership expired described 'borrowing' a brand new tamper to do the carriage stable, the donor treating it as a training exercise. Which is why the Long Siding from Pickering is apparently technically fit for 100mph running. 

[Boris]

So there is a new enthusiasts group forming called Northallerton Railway Circle, formerly the Northallerton Area Group of the NYMR, after many years they have decided to cut ties with the NYMR, basically as a result of what is going on with the management of the organisation at the moment, they will fundraise for specific things like the NYMR wagon group but also for other projects on other railways and generally do their own thing.

 

Best of luck to them.

[03189]

On 15/03/2024 at 17:34, PhilH said:

I doubt very much whether Mr and Mrs Joe public would want to spend that long on a heritage train, especially if they have the 2.4 children trailing along in their wake. Unfortunately on most heritage railways these are people that pay their bills, not the majority of enthusiasts who see it as a badge of honour not to spend more money than is necessary during their trip.

 

I base this opinion on my experiences and conversations during my time volunteering on a heritage railway.

 

Having dropped by Levisham station earlier this week, I've been catching up with the generally eye-opening NYMR-related posts.

 

Since 2008, I've lived within a 30-minute drive of Pickering. Preferring on the whole to watch trains go by, I rarely ride on the NYMR, of which I find interesting only the Levisham to Grosmont stretch. Let's face it, the finest views of the moors are from the A169, whether you're driving or taking the bus. How non-enthusiasts, especially those with children, cope with a five-hour round trip, on the NYMR, from Pickering to Whitby, I don't know. Must seem endless. I grew up near the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway, and have always felt that to be the ideal length line for non-enthusiasts.

 

Now I have learned the NYMR's 2024 return-as-often-as-you-like ticket covers the June diesel gala, however, I may be tempted to purchase, even at £49, although I wouldn't envisage returning more than a couple of times during the 12 months I could ride 'for free'.

 

As others have said, it's a real shame single tickets, perfect for walkers, are no longer available between the likes of Levisham and Newtondale Halt, and Grosmont and Goathland. I've used the NYMR, primarily for walking, several times in the past.

 

Unfortunately, the Levisham volunteers episode merely serves to underline what many with past or present connections to the NYMR have told me: it is not a happy ship.

 

A few years ago, I did a diesel footplate experience on the NYMR, and was slightly surprised when one of my instructors spent a good deal of our time together badmouthing the other, behind his back.

Edited May 3 by 03189

[03189]

On 15/03/2024 at 23:06, 009 micro modeller said:

That said, I thought two of the reasons to extend to Whitby were to give the NYMR better access to the Whitby tourist market, and to provide a way for people from the area around York to get to Whitby more easily, thus also tapping into that market (which would also explain the very busy and very early departures from Pickering on some days). Also I like a trip on the Moors partly due to the scenery, which I think works in its favour (I suspect I’m not the only one, and the similarly long and scenic Welsh Highland also benefits from this).

 

People from the area around York generally drive to Whitby. Much easier than taking the NYMR! The Coastliner bus service, cheaper, with better views, is popular too.

 

Occasionally, my wife and I have an out-of-season (no foliage = better views) return ride on the scenic Esk Valley line, and between trains spend four hours in Whitby, although this entails the logistical insanity of driving from York to Marton station (where free, on-street parking is available) and back.

 

Edited May 3 by 03189

[5944]

On 03/05/2024 at 13:37, 03189 said:

 

Having dropped by Levisham station earlier this week, I've been catching up with the generally eye-opening NYMR-related posts.

 

Since 2008, I've lived within a 30-minute drive of Pickering. Preferring on the whole to watch trains go by, I rarely ride on the NYMR, of which I find interesting only the Levisham to Grosmont stretch. Let's face it, the finest views of the moors are from the A169, whether you're driving or taking the bus. How non-enthusiasts, especially those with children, cope with a five-hour round trip, on the NYMR, from Pickering to Whitby, I don't know. Must seem endless. I grew up near the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway, and have always felt that to be the ideal length line for non-enthusiasts.

 

Now I have learned the NYMR's 2024 return-as-often-as-you-like ticket covers the June diesel gala, however, I may be tempted to purchase, even at £49, although I wouldn't envisage returning more than a couple of times during the 12 months I could ride 'for free'.

 

As others have said, it's a real shame single tickets, perfect for walkers, are no longer available between the likes of Levisham and Newtondale Halt, and Grosmont and Goathland. I've used the NYMR, primarily for walking, several times in the past.

Single tickets are available, but not advertised on the website. Apparently revenue was up 23% last year - funnily enough, a very similar amount to the gift aid claimed back from £49 entry passes rather than travel ticket sales. Passenger numbers have stayed the same.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, 5944 said:

Single tickets are available, but not advertised on the website.

Is this because (rather like the Snowdon Mountain Railway, which iirc only sells single tickets on a stand-by, walk-up basis) they ideally need that capacity to be available for people to make full-line return trips, and then they can sell walk-up single tickets around that based on what space is left?

 

1 hour ago, 5944 said:

Apparently revenue was up 23% last year - funnily enough, a very similar amount to the gift aid claimed back from £49 entry passes rather than travel ticket sales. Passenger numbers have stayed the same.

If (as has been suggested elsewhere) the trains are full to capacity at busy times then, in some ways, this seems quite sensible from the point of view of increasing income (if they can’t increase capacity). Do you have to gift aid in order to make your ticket into an annual pass or are they all annual passes anyway now?

[adb968008]

Are day passes not subject to VAT ?

 

wouldnt that cancel out the gift aid benefit value ?

Edited May 7 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

Are day passes not subject to VAT ?

Why would they be, if tickets aren’t? It’s arguably either a form of season ticket or a form of rover ticket (but valid for a year rather than, as more traditionally, a shorter period). For Gift Aid I gather that it needs to be made into an annual pass (or some similar benefit) in order to be considered a form of donation and qualify for Gift Aid.

 

I can’t remember if charities can reclaim VAT in this specific sort of context (I know they can for some things obviously) so not sure if that would be relevant. I find it unlikely that they’d have gone down this route (not to mention the multiple other museums with similar annual ticketing systems) if it did just cancel it out.

[rodent279]

What I don't understand is how come the NYMR plc can claim gift aid for selling tickets dressed up as annual passes? The NYMR is not a charity, it is a commercial organisation. Surely the gift aid should go to the NYMHRT?

[31A]

On 06/05/2024 at 11:25, 009 micro modeller said:

Do you have to gift aid in order to make your ticket into an annual pass or are they all annual passes anyway now?

 

You're not obliged to gift aid when you buy your annual pass, or at least I wasn't when I bought mine last year - they give you the option.  I intend to buy one for this year sometime soon.

[31A]

1 minute ago, rodent279 said:

What I don't understand is how come the NYMR plc can claim gift aid for selling tickets dressed up as annual passes? The NYMR is not a charity, it is a commercial organisation. Surely the gift aid should go to the NYMHRT?

 

They have been doing it for some time; I remember being asked when I visited a couple of years ago before the Annual Passes were 'a thing'.

[009 micro modeller]

2 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

What I don't understand is how come the NYMR plc can claim gift aid for selling tickets dressed up as annual passes? The NYMR is not a charity, it is a commercial organisation. Surely the gift aid should go to the NYMHRT?

The only explanation I can think of is that plenty of charities/museums that do something similar technically sell their tickets through a ‘trading company’, but in the example I’m most familiar with the organisation responsible for the operational side is itself also a charity (just separate from the collections-owning charity, for fairly obvious reasons) rather than a plc, so that issue wouldn’t apply in the same way.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

3 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

You're not obliged to gift aid when you buy your annual pass, or at least I wasn't when I bought mine last year - they give you the option.  I intend to buy one for this year sometime soon.

Gift aid can never be compulsory.

 

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Are day passes not subject to VAT ?

Day passes don't qualify for gift aid (unless the person donates at least 10% above the normal price). There are very few situations where what we might ordinarily think of as a railway needs needs to pay VAT on fares. Santa specials are specifically mentioned in HMRC guidance as being exempt from VAT, for example (but wine and dine trains might not be).

 

For gift aid without an extra 10% donation, you need to offer a pass valid at least a year. It appears that this is officially classed as a donation, so it would be VAT exempt even if it weren't for travelling on a railway.

 

14 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

The NYMR is not a charity

Oh yes it is. Number 501388.

[adb968008]

17 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Gift aid can never be compulsory.

 

Day passes don't qualify for gift aid (unless the person donates at least 10% above the normal price). There are very few situations where what we might ordinarily think of as a railway needs needs to pay VAT on fares. Santa specials are specifically mentioned in HMRC guidance as being exempt from VAT, for example (but wine and dine trains might not be).

 

For gift aid without an extra 10% donation, you need to offer a pass valid at least a year. It appears that this is officially classed as a donation, so it would be VAT exempt even if it weren't for travelling on a railway.

 

Oh yes it is. Number 501388.

My thinking was the annual pass becomes an admission ticket to an attraction, in the same way as a theme park, like a Merlin annual pass.

 

The annual pass is not like annual railcard as its not for traveling between two set points like a regular or annual railcard ticket is. It is offering unlimited admission to anywhere in the attraction for year.

 

I would imagine it could be complicated further, if the railway has a museum or other attraction that is giving admission inclusive in the annual ticket price… Having the shed open to the public, inclusive of admission and with a permanent shop is an attraction is it not ?
The stations themselves are marketed as attractions on the website.
 

Free admission and unlimited rides for a year is different to a return, oneway or even a season ticket between two points.

 

Edited May 7 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

1 minute ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Gift aid can never be compulsory.

Indeed (and it should hopefully be fairly obvious that it can’t be compulsory), but the question was about whether they were requiring people to Gift Aid in order to make what would have been a day pass into an annual one, for the same price. I’ve seen some places that have done this in some form but the organisation I work for doesn’t - we simply sell either day tickets (to people who are unlikely to return within the year, e.g. tourists, and who don’t want to leave any personal details) or annual ones (which are the same price, but you obviously need to leave some details so that the annual ticket can be traceable for future visits, if the physical ticket is lost, to check expiry date etc. - you only need to give a postal address if Gift Aiding though).

 

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

My thinking was the annual pass becomes an admission ticket to an attraction, in the same way as a theme park, like a Merlin annual pass.

 

The annual pass is not like annual railcard as its not for traveling between two set points like a regular or annual railcard ticket is. It is offering unlimited admission to anywhere in the attraction for year.

 

I would imagine it could be complicated further, if the railway has a museum or other attraction that is giving admission inclusive in the annual ticket price.

Possibly overthinking this a bit. I find the annual ticket idea easier to understand by comparing it to other museums that have the same kind of annual ticketing. The NYMR is the museum in this instance and it has multiple entry and exit points, i.e. stations in this case (plenty of museums have multiple entrances - at the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich for instance I’ve sometimes walked in one side, around and through it and out the other side, arriving by train into Greenwich but then walking through the park and leaving from Maze Hill). The fact that you get around the NYMR “museum” by train rather than walking (or whatever) isn’t particularly relevant from that point of view. The odd bit for me (as covered earlier in the thread) is that many museums that include some sort of train or ride do not allow people to have endless repeat rides on it at no additional cost, even when they are otherwise free admission or have annual tickets. Some do, e.g. the DVLR at Murton Park, but presumably they wouldn’t if it was presenting capacity problems.

 

I’m also thinking back to my (imagined, completely theoretical, though I quite fancy a model railway based on the concept) example of an old mineral railway restored as a heritage line, where you get on at a park and ride station (where the only car park and visitor entrance is) and ride along the line to the museum, built into old industrial buildings in a remote location and only publicly accessible by train (and these are the only two stations). In this example it would seem sensible to sell an annual ticket that gives access to the museum for a year, assuming that it’s the museum that makes up the main part of the visit, and the railway could be said to be within the museum (as opposed to the other way round, with a relatively small museum attached to a heritage railway). But it would equally make sense for that annual ticket to include unlimited train travel, since it would be literally impossible to visit the museum without going on the train. But there are several key differences between this theoretical setup and the NYMR.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Free admission and unlimited rides for a year is different to a return, oneway or even a season ticket between two points.

It is, and like you I have my suspicions about the the arrangement, but I can't see a flaw from a tax perspective (but I am neither an accountant nor a lawyer).

 

I can see two potential problems from a business operation perspective.

• If ordinary day tickets aren't available, and annual passes are priced too high, ordinary day visitors may elect not to travel (and will most likely be annoyed about it), or they may travel anyway but be annoyed by the excessive fare. Annoying customers and potential customers when your product is very much a discretionary spend does not seem to me to be the way to success.
• If annual pass holders then decide to make use of their free travel for a year, the railway will have additional journeys and additional passenger miles for no increase in revenue. Is there really spare capacity to absorb this extra demand?

I know NYMR offer a limited selection of day tickets, but not for Whitby or Grosmont to Pickering, that I can see.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

2 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Indeed (and it should hopefully be fairly obvious that it can’t be compulsory), but the question was about whether they were requiring people to Gift Aid in order to make what would have been a day pass into an annual one, for the same price.

No, that's not allowed. From https://www.visitengland.com/sites/default/files/rules_on_gift_aid_for_charitable_attractions_updated_version_jan_15.pdf:

Quote

It must be made clear to the visitor that they can purchase the yearly right of admission without making a Gift Aid declaration.

(bold as per the original)