Five volunteers SUSPENDED from NYMR

[Northmoor]

6 hours ago, Boris said:

The situation with the station approach bridge at Goathland isn't new, its been dragging on for years but its very telling that is has been allowed to deteriorate to the point where its unsafe for traffic, a civil engineer friend did point out thought that is the bridge isn't safe for cars then it is questionable about it supporting a crowd getting on and off a train which is worrying.  Let's not forge the state of the track in Grosmont tunnel which is the original BR stuff and the engineer won't replace it because he is concerned about the tunnel collapsing, you can also put your hand through the tunnel lining at Grosmont in places.

 

While clearly you have considerably more knowledge of the NYMR than I do, it's seemed to me that in the last decade, it's been one of the (all too few) railways that has invested in its infrastructure, such as some very expensive underbridges.  In defence of the recent management team, what you've described about the tunnel lining hasn't suddenly developed in the last ten years.

It's similar on the WSR, the very unpopular management team have spent money on infrastructure that had clearly been neglected for too long.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said:

I live in the westcountry, so it seems quite extortionate to me, since I would be very unlikely to be back for several years, if at all, given my age. I would have thought that most locals would soon lose interest in regular trips on any steam railway unless they happen to be enthusiasts, who are steadily dying off and largely not being replaced by younger people.

But compare that to a family who live locally (families in my experience being an audience likely to make repeat visits) with 2 adults who pay and 2 children who go free. It’s very expensive the first time but works out relatively well if they go 4 times (as might be the case). The issue is still that the full £99 has to be paid in one go though.

[ste234]

16 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 The issue is still that the full £99 has to be paid in one go though.

This is the issue we had. We went through the weekend Gresley was there. Had it not been so expensive we'd of bought a ticket and had a ride on anything. My 1 year old daughter loves seeing the trains and enjoyed a ride at Llangollen railway a few weeks ago that cost very little. It was only a short trip, but that was enough for her current (limited!) attention span. My wife isn't exactly as enthusiastic about railways as I am and I'd struggle to get her to go back more than once in a year just to have a ride on a train which she finds completely boring, so £99 isn't a good spend for a day out really for us. And it's a shame as we only live 45 minutes away! Had it been cheaper or we could just go for example Grosmont to Goathland and walk back then they would 100% of had a ticket sale out of us, even if we had to pay for little one.

Instead they got nothing....

[russ p]

28 minutes ago, ste234 said:

This is the issue we had. We went through the weekend Gresley was there. Had it not been so expensive we'd of bought a ticket and had a ride on anything. My 1 year old daughter loves seeing the trains and enjoyed a ride at Llangollen railway a few weeks ago that cost very little. It was only a short trip, but that was enough for her current (limited!) attention span. My wife isn't exactly as enthusiastic about railways as I am and I'd struggle to get her to go back more than once in a year just to have a ride on a train which she finds completely boring, so £99 isn't a good spend for a day out really for us. And it's a shame as we only live 45 minutes away! Had it been cheaper or we could just go for example Grosmont to Goathland and walk back then they would 100% of had a ticket sale out of us, even if we had to pay for little one.

Instead they got nothing....

 

The other thing that short journey tickets allow is people to take kids for a shorter ride that would otherwise get bored on a nearly 3h round trip with hardly any phone signal 

When I was a kid in the 70s we very rarely did a full return round trip it was either Grosmont Goathland and back or through to pickering with my dad and my mum would drive the car there

[adb968008]

If the trains are full but the bank is empty, then clearly something is wrong.

if the price is considered high, but the trains still full, then theres something wrong in the costs.

 

maybe the line should consider splitting into two halves, or even thirds… its a very long day to go Pickering to Whitby, when many may be happy with a two hour round trip that only goes part way, and back.

 

That would double ticket sale potential and cut the journey to something more manageable as a day out.

Dont forget passengers spending 3 hours on a train, arnt actually spending much money when they are sat on it… so encourage them to get off sooner.

[Michael Hodgson]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

maybe the line should consider splitting into two halves, or even thirds… its a very long day to go Pickering to Whitby, when many may be happy with a two hour round trip that only goes part way, and back.

 

 

Yes, the duration of the trip is an important factor when considering the optimum length of a preservation line.

Enthusiasts want as much as possible restored.  Unfortunately, they don't visit very often and aren't the main market.

 

The buk of the revenue comes from Mr & Mrs Joe Public who are not particularly interested in railways.  They just want to take little Johnny on a steam train ride as part of an afternoon out to keep him quiet.  The total fare for the family (and the cost of tea and cakes, maybe plus Thomas the Tank in the tat shop) is what will determine whether or not they will decide they can afford it, but the time they are prepared to spend in total on the exercise is also limited to perhaps half a day.  Then it's Thank God we got that over, and we can get back home for the big match on telly.

 

I have similar doubts about the financial viability of the GCR running all the way from Leicester to Nottingham, much as I'd like to see it.  I don't see the demand being there for a longer trip, so I don't see them getting away with increasing the fare to cover the increased costs of the through mileage.   And they too have had to cut back on staff costs.

[adb968008]

Maybe centre the trip on Goathland, with trains from Pickering and  Grosmont/Whitby.

The timetable can always be a through working, but tickets as a ride to / return from here, with emphasis of “end of the ride all change” at Goathland.

 

It gives added advantage of a 2 hour trip with two different trains, than a 5 hour trip with the same one throughout.

It also allows people to have more flexibility on their return time.

 

if priced at £30 day return to Goathland it gives £19 per seat more revenue than the £49 day out (as youve doubled capacity) and puts it at £60 for 2 instead of £100 to the consumer, yet still a day out that nets the nymr £120 for 2 instead of £98 for 2.

 

They can still sell the £49 for the hardy, makes it look a bargain against the day return, which of course doesnt include a return visit in the future.

Arguably Goathland is the goto place for tourists anyway, so your simply giving them what they want.

 

£49 annual pass seems like the kind of thing a civil servant would come up.. a bit like buy 1 washing machine get 1 free… why, other than to justify a price thats out of touch to whats wanted, if youve got the demand reduce the product to increase capacity and net the difference.

 

Maybe one thing to consider is making some trains Apex only in the timetable, it establishes demand and minimum service level… if the apex are sold out additional trains could be inserted into the timetable for walkups, and if not, they can be dropped without being publically canceled thus removing a commitment to run them.

Edited March 15 by adb968008

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

maybe the line should consider splitting into two halves, or even thirds… its a very long day to go Pickering to Whitby, when many may be happy with a two hour round trip that only goes part way, and back.

 

I've heard quite a few things suggesting that around 30-45 minutes each way (so around 90m-2hrs total journey time by the time you've included the break at the far end) tends to be most popular amongst 'normal' visitors - long enough to be worthwhile, but still short enough to stop the kids getting bored. 

 

22 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

They can still sell the £49 for the hardy, makes it look a bargain against the day return, which of course doesnt include a return visit in the future.

Arguably Goathland is the goto place for tourists anyway, so your simply giving them what they want.

 

We went to the Eden project a few years ago, and they offered two options, either the standard day ticket or the "as many visits as you like in a year" option - I can't remember the price difference but it wasn't much, certainly a lot less than two days, and gift-aided as it counted as a 'membership' rather than a 'ticket' - so they got the extra 20% on top.

[PhilH]

29 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

It gives added advantage of a 2 hour trip with two different trains, than a 5 hour trip with the same one throughout.

It also allows people to have more flexibility on their return time.

 

I doubt very much whether Mr and Mrs Joe public would want to spend that long on a heritage train, especially if they have the 2.4 children trailing along in their wake. Unfortunately on most heritage railways these are people that pay their bills, not the majority of enthusiasts who see it as a badge of honour not to spend more money than is necessary during their trip.

 

I base this opinion on my experiences and conversations during my time volunteering on a heritage railway.

Edited March 15 by PhilH

[adb968008]

Does the £49 ticket include vat ?

 

its an annual pass, rather than a train ticket, which doesnt have vat ?

 

surely thats an argument for selling train tickets ?

Edited March 15 by adb968008

[Michael Hodgson]

54 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Maybe centre the trip on Goathland, with trains from Pickering and  Grosmont/Whitby.

The timetable can always be a through working, but tickets as a ride to / from here, with emphasis of “end of the ride all change” at Goathland.

Goathland as a centre isn't really practicable as car parking is fairly limited.  None of the other stations is great either (except perhaps Whitby with the pay parking near the Co-op), so encouraging them all to go to any one station will probably only make matters worse. 

 

They aren't the only line with that issue - for example the Epping-Ongar is a lot more difficult.

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Goathland as a centre isn't really practicable as car parking is fairly limited.  None of the other stations is great either (except perhaps Whitby with the pay parking near the Co-op), so encouraging them all to go to any one station will probably only make matters worse. 

 

They aren't the only line with that issue - for example the Epping-Ongar is a lot more difficult.

If your taking the train to Goathland, you dont need a car park at Goathland, unless of course the train was a motorail.

Edited March 15 by adb968008

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, PhilH said:

I doubt very much whether Mr and Mrs Joe public would want to spend that long on a heritage train, especially if they have the 2.4 children trailing along in their wake. Unfortunately on most heritage railways these are people that pay their bills, not the majority of enthusiasts who see it as a badge of honour not to spend more money than is necessary during their trip.

 

I base this opinion on my experiences and conversations during my time volunteering on a heritage railway.

Agreed, thats my point..

 

Pickering to Whitby is a full day out. Its too long… its minimum 5 hours.

 

Pickering to Goathland is much more practical.

as is Whitby/Grosmont to Goathland, or Grosmont to Whitby.

 

Now as a customer you pay £49, get fed up at Goathland, get off, potter about, head back to Pickering… you get left with a sense of having paid for a full day out but only done half… or the savvy ones figure it in advance and bypass it altogether. Rather than return in the future your more likely to say its a ripoff and bad mouth it as not worth it/tourist trap etc.

 

its not unsimilar to Merlin entertainment style days out, I avoid those like the plague too.

This approach feels like it is a train company pretending to be a theme park, and i’m nto sure it has enough variety of attractions to be that.

 

Maybe the nymr is happy with this approach, they must have done the numbers to have come up with this, but then if the sums are right why is the bank balance so bad, despite high loadings?

 

Maybe its time to go back to being a railway?

Edited March 15 by adb968008

[nick_bastable]

4 hours ago, ste234 said:

This is the issue we had. We went through the weekend Gresley was there. Had it not been so expensive we'd of bought a ticket and had a ride on anything. My 1 year old daughter loves seeing the trains and enjoyed a ride at Llangollen railway a few weeks ago that cost very little. It was only a short trip, but that was enough for her current (limited!) attention span. My wife isn't exactly as enthusiastic about railways as I am and I'd struggle to get her to go back more than once in a year just to have a ride on a train which she finds completely boring, so £99 isn't a good spend for a day out really for us. And it's a shame as we only live 45 minutes away! Had it been cheaper or we could just go for example Grosmont to Goathland and walk back then they would 100% of had a ticket sale out of us, even if we had to pay for little one.

Instead they got nothing....

the Dining trains are good value when compared to others

[john new]

13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

If your taking the train to Goathland, you dont need a car park at Goathland, unless of course the train was a motorail.

In the past we have often parked at Goathland station to get the first train. It is a worthwhile option but only ever has, presumably now it is had, limited spacing so you needed to be on the first train.

[pete_mcfarlane]

According to their website it's still possible to buy tickets for a shorter journey: https://www.nymr.co.uk/ticketing-information

 

Quote

SHORTER JOURNEYS
Our Shorter Journey Tickets offer day return travel fixed fare price. To travel 1 Station (e.g. Pickering – Levisham) – £13.50 per adult (16+) and free for children (0-15) and to travel 2 Stations (e.g. Whitby – Goathland) – £25.00 per adult (16+) and free for children (0-15).

 

Just not online.  https://www.nymr.co.uk/pages/category/book-tickets

 

Quote

Shorter Journeys

Our Shorter Journey Tickets offer day return travel between up to two neighbouring stations at fixed fare prices starting from £13.50 plus Kids Go Free! 

Shorter Journey Tickets are not available in advance or online. Purchase them from a Station Booking Office on the day of your visit.

 

And not as obvious as the 12 month pass option. It also doesn't let you do what I did last time I was there, and travel from Pickering to Grosmont for less than the full line fare. The trains to and from Grosmont were a lot less full than the ones heading to Whitby. 

 

 

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

If the trains are full but the bank is empty, then clearly something is wrong.

if the price is considered high, but the trains still full, then there's something wrong in the costs.

Nail, head etc.  Unfortunately the NYMR is not the only railway in this position at the moment.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Nail, head etc.  Unfortunately the NYMR is not the only railway in this position at the moment.

Agreed, though many lines have excuses, geography, size, location, competition etc etc.

 

The NYMR is really gold standard.. its in a high catch area, with high value tourism locations, high market awareness, globally recognised and is a very mature operation and long history.

 

This isnt a backyard startup, behind a council estate running 100 yards relying on grandpa joe and his saddle tank, with his wife telling everyone at the WI to support it this weekend.

 

It has a very strong deck of cards, one of the strongest… i’d put it up there with the Dartmouth Steam Railway, and Lakeside Railway when it comes to potential.

 

£49 a throw is a strong ticket price, but by all accounts they are getting it… other lines can only dream of this.

In my mind this is a line that could be a full corporate for profit operation and a viable self sustaining business… its got such a strong deck of cards, so with the volunteer suport base it commands and community goodwill this should be a bastion not a basket case.

 

It needs to lower its costs or increase its revenue. To me it feels like its offering the customer more then they can consume, and they are occupying space longer than they should. If they reduce the ride to a duration that works, it increases capacity for no extra cost, which can be resold… any restaurant will tell you the best customers arent the highest spending, but the ones who vacate the table fastest so you can sell to the next, by all accounts it seems like this restaurant has a good reputation and a long queue, just seems like the all you can eat approach is too much food, and people are hanging around too long but not ordering desert.

Theres a lot of line to cover, maybe one option is not unlimited rides for a year, but a 1,2,3 day “rover” ticket, so those on holiday can use the line as transport during a holiday, and expire it off. It may discourage a future free visit, but a free visit isnt earning you anything anyway, so why encourage it ? Maybe better to offer an off season discount instead ?

Whats odd, is none of this is new the NYMR has been running for 5 decades.., nothing changed since Whitby 17 years ago…they should have the formula nailed by this point, with the costs and income predictable and optimised accordingly… there shouldn't be surprises… its reported to be carrying 350k passengers, and a £500k loss.. surely changing the £49 to £50.50 would eliminate that at a stroke ?

 

 

Edited March 15 by adb968008

[ste234]

50 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

According to their website it's still possible to buy tickets for a shorter journey: https://www.nymr.co.uk/ticketing-information

 

 

Just not online.  https://www.nymr.co.uk/pages/category/book-tickets

 

 

 

To be quite honest when I looked for the Gresley weekend as I said earlier, I must of completely missed that short journey ticket as for that price we would of had a ride. Maybe I went straight to the booking link and was intimidated by the £49? That almost seems like a bit of a trick to get people to pay more, why isn't it possible to book a shorter journey online? Again, they missed our money there (and I know I keep saying that but how many more have said the same!) 

 

I think it's a massive shame too as I've been going there since I was my Daughter's age (nearly two, where's that gone!?)  and it always had that kind of magical feel about the place, I love the moors area anyway but they have got the whole experience nailed, especially getting the big boys like Gresley in, I'd hate to see the line be a shadow of it's former self but moneys tight at times for everyone!

 

(Little side note, we didn't actually realise Gresley was going to be there that weekend we went, we just went for a walk. Which was weird as it was my Grandads favourite loco and he'd passed away only a few weeks before, spooky!)

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

3 minutes ago, ste234 said:

To be quite honest when I looked for the Gresley weekend as I said earlier, I must of completely missed that short journey ticket as for that price we would of had a ride.

 

The information is  very much tucked away in the website, so that's not surprising. 

[adb968008]

As always looking at companies house reveals the secrets…

 

revenue up. £5.8mn to £6.3mn.. +£500k

costs up.. £4.1mn to £4.9mn.. +£700k

deferred maintenance is +£417k.

 

it does read revenue to costs has not risen inline, and maybe fare revenue needs to increase.

 

however noteably..

 

admin is up… from £1.7mn to £2.3mn (£600k in additional admin fees).

directors remuneration is up… £150k to £294k, nearly double, and pretty much represents the increase in staffing costs for the year, despite staffing increasing from 101 to 134 employees.

 

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02490244/filing-history/MzM5MTg5Mjc5N2FkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0

 

If they didnt have the additional directors fees, and the £600k admin increase they’d nearly be on an even keel. Of

Admin fees is  a 1/3rd of the railways income.. thats before cost of sales ! It reads like an office with a railway attached!

 

I wonder if there was an exceptional last year relating to Admin that brought such a big increase, or if this is how it is moving forwards ?

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

It also doesn't let you do what I did last time I was there, and travel from Pickering to Grosmont for less than the full line fare. The trains to and from Grosmont were a lot less full than the ones heading to Whitby. 

That’s what I found when I went there a few years ago (and also that the journey fare at that time to Whitby was disproportionately more expensive than Pickering to Grosmont - perhaps understandable though given the costs associated with running on NR to Whitby).

 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

its not unsimilar to Merlin entertainment style days out

Do they (or their subsidiary) own Snowdon Mountain Railway these days?

 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Pickering to Whitby is a full day out. Its too long… its minimum 5 hours.

I generally agree with that. I think a lot of lines may have lost sight of this in a way. If there are other things to do along the way, or on return to the main site (museums, miniature railways adjacent to the big one, walking routes accessible by train, play areas for children and so on) then people probably will stay on site for 4 to 5 hours (as they already do at other museums and tourist attractions), but it works a lot better (especially for families) because the day is broken up into different activities rather than essentially being on the train for the whole time.

 

That said, I thought two of the reasons to extend to Whitby were to give the NYMR better access to the Whitby tourist market, and to provide a way for people from the area around York to get to Whitby more easily, thus also tapping into that market (which would also explain the very busy and very early departures from Pickering on some days). Also I like a trip on the Moors partly due to the scenery, which I think works in its favour (I suspect I’m not the only one, and the similarly long and scenic Welsh Highland also benefits from this).

[john new]

29 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

That’s what I found when I went there a few years ago (and also that the journey fare at that time to Whitby was disproportionately more expensive than Pickering to Grosmont - perhaps understandable though given the costs associated with running on NR to Whitby).

 

Do they (or their subsidiary) own Snowdon Mountain Railway these days?

 

I generally agree with that. I think a lot of lines may have lost sight of this in a way. If there are other things to do along the way, or on return to the main site (museums, miniature railways adjacent to the big one, walking routes accessible by train, play areas for children and so on) then people probably will stay on site for 4 to 5 hours (as they already do at other museums and tourist attractions), but it works a lot better (especially for families) because the day is broken up into different activities rather than essentially being on the train for the whole time.

 

That said, I thought two of the reasons to extend to Whitby were to give the NYMR better access to the Whitby tourist market, and to provide a way for people from the area around York to get to Whitby more easily, thus also tapping into that market (which would also explain the very busy and very early departures from Pickering on some days). Also I like a trip on the Moors partly due to the scenery, which I think works in its favour (I suspect I’m not the only one, and the similarly long and scenic Welsh Highland also benefits from this).

The Whitby service can be almost regarded as the town’s second Park & Ride service. From the south it is far easier to park in Pickering and take the train over the moors and back. Given how busy Whitby’s car parking gets that is one reason why people go through on it for their day at the seaside.

[rogerzilla]

Why has the number of employees increased so much?  SVR had the same learning experience a couple of years ago - replace volunteers with paid staff, and go into the red.  The current SVR administration has stopped that, although my recent experience as a visitor suggests that catering volunteers aren't always available.

[pete_mcfarlane]

2 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Why has the number of employees increased so much?  

Isn't there something with National Employee contributions where it's marginally cheaper to employee multiple part-time workers than a smaller number of Full time ones?