GWR 10t Loco Wagon in BR (W) Grey livery

[Garethp8873]

Whilst I was doing some wagon browsing tonight, I happened to come across this GWR 10t Loco Wagon 9313 (diagram N19 I think) located at Machynlleth in BR (W) Grey livery. As a wagon researcher this is the first time I have come across a GWR 10T Loco wagon in this livery. Would anyone who happens to have any photos or books relating to Machynlleth Locomotive Depot be able to see if they can find anymore photos of this wagon please? I know it's a longshot but thank you :)

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Garethp8873

[Fat Controller]

Looking at Volume 2 of David Larkin's series on Absorbed Wagons, the gey livery seems to be prevalent for almost all examples from the early 1950s onwards. There are a few of the 21t type in black, with straw lettering, but they are very much the minority.

[Cwmtwrch]

14 hours ago, Garethp8873 said:

I happened to come across this GWR 10t Loco Wagon 9313 (diagram N19 I think) located at Machynlleth in BR (W) Grey livery

It's isn't the normal BR pale grey [no black patch and high contrast with the numbers] so it could be either GW loco. dept. black, GW wagon grey, the very dark grey sometimes used immediately post-nationalisation owing to paint shortages, all with white lettering, or BR black with straw lettering for service wagons. Comparing the body colour with the axleguard, and in view of the "DW" I can't rule out the last possibility, but the number digits are pure GWR, so I suspect the first possibility is most likely.

[The Johnster]

The initial instruction regarding liveries on the formation of BR 1st January 1948 was for paintshops to continue using whatever liveries, lettering/number styles, and layouts they had been using on 31/12/47, but to omit company names, initials, or indication of ownership; regional prefixes to numbers were to be used, however.  This instruction was superceded with one stating that, after 31st May 1947, the new standard BR liveries and Gill Sans (Eric Gill, sans any sort of morality), lettering and numbering were to be used.  So, a wagon painted on the WR between those dates would be turned out in late GW dark grey livery with GW-style lettering and a W prefix to the number. 

 

I think this is probably what has happened here, with the D prefix added when the wagon is transferred out of revenue into departmental stock.  Do we know the date the photo was taken?

[Sitham Yard]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

The initial instruction regarding liveries on the formation of BR 1st January 1948 was for paintshops to continue using whatever liveries, lettering/number styles, and layouts they had been using on 31/12/47, but to omit company names, initials, or indication of ownership; regional prefixes to numbers were to be used, however.  This instruction was superceded with one stating that, after 31st May 1947, the new standard BR liveries and Gill Sans (Eric Gill, sans any sort of morality), lettering and numbering were to be used.  So, a wagon painted on the WR between those dates would be turned out in late GW dark grey livery with GW-style lettering and a W prefix to the number. 

 

I think this is probably what has happened here, with the D prefix added when the wagon is transferred out of revenue into departmental stock.  Do we know the date the photo was taken?

31st May 1947 is obviously wrong - do you mean 1949?

Andrew

[Hal Nail]

5 minutes ago, Sitham Yard said:

31st May 1947 is obviously wrong - do you mean 1949?

Andrew

48

[The Johnster]

13 minutes ago, Sitham Yard said:

31st May 1947 is obviously wrong - do you mean 1949?

Andrew

 

Yes, 31/5/48, another 'senior moment' to add to my impressive and growing list, the moment I mean, not the date...

[Sitham Yard]

1 minute ago, The Johnster said:

 

Yes, 31/5/48, another 'senior moment' to add to my impressive and growing list, the moment I mean, not the date...

I think this is the provisional livery with dark grey body and no black patches. The information I have seen published states that the wagon livery not finalised until, I think, 1949 with light grey body and black patches for the lettering.

Andrew 

[Cwmtwrch]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

I think this is probably what has happened here, with the D prefix added when the wagon is transferred out of revenue into departmental stock. 

GWR 10T coal wagons were built for loco coal traffic to small sheds with just one or two locos. The OP suggests N19, and it does look like a round corner type, which would be consistent with that. It's difficult to say more without seeing more of the wagon. GW Loco Dept wagons were usually black, as far as I know. It's definitely not a traffic coal wagon, as the GW didn't have any that size. 

[WillCav]

18 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

GWR 10T coal wagons were built for loco coal traffic to small sheds with just one or two locos. The OP suggests N19, and it does look like a round corner type, which would be consistent with that. It's difficult to say more without seeing more of the wagon. GW Loco Dept wagons were usually black, as far as I know. It's definitely not a traffic coal wagon, as the GW didn't have any that size. 

The wagon number is listed under diagram N13 in the GW wagons book by Atkins, Beard etc.  If it is an N13 then it is over 40 years old in the OP's photo.

As for the colour of GW loco coal wagons - some say dark grey and some say black.

Will

[Chrisbr]

9313 was built in May 1912 to lot 693 and condemned in July 1956.

[bécasse]

12 hours ago, WillCav said:

As for the colour of GW loco coal wagons - some say dark grey and some say black.

I have long suspected that it was bituminised black paint which the GWR was fond of using on its corrugated iron structures (even to the extent of specifying c/i which was already so coated). That would have started life a very distinctive black (especially in comparison with the dark grey used on freight stock) but would gradually have faded over time much in the same way, but much more slowly, that road surfaces do. Using it would obviously have been more expensive than using ordinary paint but the whole life cost would have been lower, especially for wagons intended to carry and hold coal.

[kevinlms]

16 minutes ago, bécasse said:

I have long suspected that it was bituminised black paint which the GWR was fond of using on its corrugated iron structures (even to the extent of specifying c/i which was already so coated). That would have started life a very distinctive black (especially in comparison with the dark grey used on freight stock) but would gradually have faded over time much in the same way, but much more slowly, that road surfaces do. Using it would obviously have been more expensive than using ordinary paint but the whole life cost would have been lower, especially for wagons intended to carry and hold coal.

Are you talking logic here?

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Are you talking logic here?

Yes, but it is well reasoned logic given firstly that the GWR were known to be keen users of the stuff, even allowing their name to be used in product advertising, secondly that it fits the known colour of the wagons, which were darker than the dark grey used for normal freight stock, and thirdly that steel wagons used only for coal would have been very prone to serious rust damage and they don't seem to have been in practice. For comparison on this last point just consider the vast BR 16 ton steel mineral wagon fleet where the floors started dropping out after barely a decade of use.

[Cwmtwrch]

4 hours ago, bécasse said:

I have long suspected that it was bituminised black paint which the GWR was fond of using on its corrugated iron structures (even to the extent of specifying c/i which was already so coated). That would have started life a very distinctive black (especially in comparison with the dark grey used on freight stock) but would gradually have faded over time much in the same way, but much more slowly, that road surfaces do. Using it would obviously have been more expensive than using ordinary paint but the whole life cost would have been lower, especially for wagons intended to carry and hold coal.

I don't knw about GWR practice, but BR apparently had the insides of its mineral wagons and coal hoppers painted matt black [not gloss, which the outside pale grey was, as was the black underframe], and I agree with the logic of using bitumenised paint on the insides of coal wagons, wet coal being more or less acidic and mild steel* having very little resistence to acid. However, the same doesn't apply to the outsides, where any such contact would be negligable, so I would suggest that the outsides were the same black enamel which was used for the underframes.

 

There is a colour picture from 1937 on the back of Modellers' Back Track Vol.2 No.4 [Oct-Nov 1992] which shows two Loco Dept hoppers, one in post-1936 small letter livery, one in the previous livery. Both look to be all black, with no difference between body and axleguards. The background shows several ex-works vans with white roofs; there is just enough of the body of one to suggest that it is a different colour to the hoppers. I accept that, given the date of the photo and the variability of colour film and processing at the time, any evidential value is somewhat limited.

 

* N13 were wrought iron, not mild steel, which would affect the rate of corrosion a bit, and perhaps the logic of painting decisions, but they would surely have been rebodied before WW2, so when photographed 9313 may well have had a steel body.

[57xx]

7 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

I don't knw about GWR practice, but BR apparently had the insides of its mineral wagons and coal hoppers painted matt black [not gloss, which the outside pale grey was, as was the black underframe], and I agree with the logic of using bitumenised paint on the insides of coal wagons, wet coal being more or less acidic and mild steel* having very little resistence to acid. However, the same doesn't apply to the outsides, where any such contact would be negligable, so I would suggest that the outsides were the same black enamel which was used for the underframes.

 

There is a colour picture from 1937 on the back of Modellers' Back Track Vol.2 No.4 [Oct-Nov 1992] which shows two Loco Dept hoppers, one in post-1936 small letter livery, one in the previous livery. Both look to be all black, with no difference between body and axleguards. The background shows several ex-works vans with white roofs; there is just enough of the body of one to suggest that it is a different colour to the hoppers. I accept that, given the date of the photo and the variability of colour film and processing at the time, any evidential value is somewhat limited.

 

The GWR didn't paint underframes and axleboxes black though. It is very well established that they used the same dark grey paint all over the wagons. There are plenty of pics in Atkins et all that do not look like black livery. One in particular has an N4 next to an AA8 and they look to be the same shade of grey.

[Cwmtwrch]

12 hours ago, 57xx said:

The GWR didn't paint underframes and axleboxes black though. It is very well established that they used the same dark grey paint all over the wagons. There are plenty of pics in Atkins et all that do not look like black livery. One in particular has an N4 next to an AA8 and they look to be the same shade of grey.

I have a copy of the first edition of Atkins et al, which doesn't have that picture, but I have a photo of 53356 and 17594 in GW Wagons Appendix which I assume is the same one. According to Russell this is one of a small number relating to livery trials with large GW letters, and he dates them to 1904. Another of the series shows 53236 with smaller GW differently located, the basic colour of which Russell describes as black; another shows a three plank 1072 and an iron loco coal 9631, which seem to be different colours. Russell is not entirely reliable*, and 53356 and 7594 do look to be the same colour, so I don't know, but there does seem to be a reasonable case for Loco Dept wagons being black rather than grey, generally.

 

* He describes the underframe colour of white Mica As and Tevans as black, but it could be dark grey. I'm glad I model BR...

[Hal Nail]

19 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Russell is not entirely reliable

In particular he invented maroon about 8 years before British Railways!

 

A fantastic resource of photos and detail for posterity though.

[watfordtmc]

Loco coal wagons were, it seems, classed as departmental stock until 1952 (Ref 1) so the DW prefix would be appropriate although unusual on this size of wagon - and not very common on the 20/21 ton vehicles either.

 

Livery: I suspect dark grey (including under frame) but it would be a brave person who could really distinguish between weathered dark grey and weathered black from a monochrome image ...

 

The wagon book beloved of Greatwesternistas - GWR Goods Wagons - notes dark grey including the under frame as the standard livery but suggests black as a possibility for loco department wagons (Ref 2).

Consider also the interesting suggestion by @bécasse above, also possibly the exigencies of war/post-war austerity. So I wouldn’t discount black subject to any further evidence.

 

If the wagon had received an overhaul/repaint from say, after mid-1948 to early 1952, then BR’s departmental colour was black.

 

An interesting capture, thanks for sharing it.

 

Russell unreliable? Unlike anyone on RMWeb, JH Russell was actually there.  Moreover he never set out to be “... a strict historian ...”, but rather his recollections of the wagons of the wagons he “... worked with and amongst ...” Recollections that even then were 30 years old.  Which of us can claim perfect recollection of events 30 years ago.

 

References

1.  British Railway Wagons, Rowland D, David & Charles 1985. Tables 1 & 2 and notes, p 10. Don used the BTC Annual Reports and Accounts as his data source.

2.  A History of GWR Goods Wagons, Atkins A,  Beard W, Hyde D, Tourret R, David & Charles 1975, p88.

The wording used remained unchanged in the enlarged Torret Publishing edition: Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret R, Tourret Publishing 1998, p64.

3.  A Pictorial Record of Great Western Wagons, Russel J, Oxford Publishing Co 1975.  See Preface.

 

Regards

TMc

 

[hmrspaul]

On 18/11/2023 at 15:54, Cwmtwrch said:

I don't knw about GWR practice, but BR apparently had the insides of its mineral wagons and coal hoppers painted matt black [not gloss, which the outside pale grey was, as was the black underframe], an

 

* N13 were wrought iron, not mild steel, which would affect the rate of corrosion a bit, and perhaps the logic of painting decisions, but they would surely have been rebodied before WW2, so when photographed 9313 may well have had a steel body.

Non of the BR painting instructions I have mention the painting of the inside of anything. There is little evidence of wagons being painted on the inside before the Railfreight bright red ones SPA and OCA which were a gloss black, many years later. 

 

Why would these wagons have a new body? Wrought iron was very durable and unlikely to have been replaced - GWR wrought iron Crocodiles lasted for a 100 years. 

 

Paul

[Cwmtwrch]

2 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Non of the BR painting instructions I have mention the painting of the inside of anything. There is little evidence of wagons being painted on the inside before the Railfreight bright red ones SPA and OCA which were a gloss black, many years later. 

There is photographic evidence that some, at least, LNER, LMSR and BR wagons were painted inside - but only if they had steel bodies, and even then wood floors were still unpainted.

[hmrspaul]

2 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

There is photographic evidence that some, at least, LNER, LMSR and BR wagons were painted inside - but only if they had steel bodies, and even then wood floors were still unpainted.

I would love to see references to them;

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

Another Diag N19 written for BR but appears to have retained GWR dark grey body https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrmineral/e11ecc336

 

Paul

[Cwmtwrch]

On 08/12/2023 at 20:35, hmrspaul said:

I would love to see references to them;

An Illustrated History of BR Hopper Wagons: page 49 [also in line 2, page 61] and 77

A Pictorial Record of LNER Wagons: pages 56, 61 and 81

BR ER Magazine 11/52 page 205 (B)

Freight Wagons and Loads on the GWR and BR WR: Figs 167/8 and 170

LMS Wagons Vol. 1: pages 107 plate 203 and 158 plates 297/8

LNER Wagons Vol. 4A: page 56, 72 [also in line 2, page 56] and 73

LNER Wagons Vol. 4B: pages 224 top and 237

Modelling Aspects of the Coal Industry: pages 28 lower and 82

The 4mm Wagon part 1: pages 26 (B) and 58 (B)

Transport Age 15: page 5

Transport Age 25 page 7

Twilight of the Goods: pages 44 and 57

 

(B) photographs taken at the Battersea Wharf exhibition of 11/1952, some of which also appear, with more of the wagons at the exhibition, in British Railways Illustrated 11/2015 page 58 onwards.

 

It’s possibly relevant that LMS Wagons Vol. 2: page 148 plate 146 shows wooden opens with all internal ironwork painted, including the bolts; page 153 gives LMSR painting instructions.

 

All B & W I'm afraid.

[Cwmtwrch]

7 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Another Diag N19 written for BR but appears to have retained GWR dark grey

Interesting. I don't know whether it was built from wrought Iron or steel, but it has what looks like a partial replating visible either side of the door. The left-hand side has been patch painted in a lighter shade or colour and the number, etc. added, although the underlying text is still partially visible, as is the large "LOCO" above the door which has also been painted out. The tare is not Swindon's usual italic style and seems to include a figure for Quarters, which is unusual.