When did the LNER drop the L & N E R?

[Typeapproval]

I'm hoping that someone can tell me when the "And" was dropped from the numbering on L&NER locomotives.

 

As I read it the rebranding of locos from the constituent companies (GCR, NE, GER etc.) started fairly quickly after the grouping. Initially some locos were rebranded with the 'and' between the "L" "N" (L&NER) but fairly soon became simply "LNER". Any information as to the actual start date of the initial rebranding, (which must have caused some resentment in the previously independent companies.) and the subsequent decision to delete the 'And' would be very gratefully received. Also the start of renumbering by adding a prefix? Again I would guess it was resisted as an imposition by a "Foreign" organisation.

 

Regards

David.

[Paul H Vigor]

39 minutes ago, Typeapproval said:

I'm hoping that someone can tell me when the "And" was dropped from the numbering on L&NER locomotives.

 

As I read it the rebranding of locos from the constituent companies (GCR, NE, GER etc.) started fairly quickly after the grouping. Initially some locos were rebranded with the 'and' between the "L" "N" (L&NER) but fairly soon became simply "LNER". Any information as to the actual start date of the initial rebranding, (which must have caused some resentment in the previously independent companies.) and the subsequent decision to delete the 'And' would be very gratefully received. Also the start of renumbering by adding a prefix? Again I would guess it was resisted as an imposition by a "Foreign" organisation.

 

Regards

David.

Must have been very soon after the 1923 Grouping?

https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2013/08/21/steam-locomotives-of-a-more-leisurely-era-1911-robinson-4-6-2t-great-central-railway/

[RichardT]

45 minutes ago, Typeapproval said:

Any information as to the actual start date of the initial rebranding, (which must have caused some resentment in the previously independent companies

 

45 minutes ago, Typeapproval said:

Again I would guess it was resisted as an imposition by a "Foreign" organisation.

 

Don't confuse the LNER with the LMS.  The companies grouped into the LNER had a long history of co-operation e.g. over operating the ECML (ECJS, and GNNEJS); and the GNR, GCR and GER had previously tried to merge but had been blocked from doing so by Parliament.

 

According the the RCTS Green Bible vol.1 (which should be your first port of call for these kind of questions) the number suffixes started in the first week of September 1923 when locos emerging from Doncaster Works had a small N added to the end of their number. About a week later the other works followed suit (Gorton adding a C, Stratford an E, Darlington a D, Cowlairs B and Inverurie S)  This system persisted for about six months, when on 6 Feb 1924 the Chief Asst Mech engineer at Darlington instructed Darlington and Gateshead Works on the agreed rules for renumbering locos (NER stay as were, H&B completely renumbered in NER system, GN add 3000, GC add 5000, GNS to use vacant numbers at end of GC sequence following discussions between relevant managers, GE to add 7000 and NB to add 9000).  "The engines will be renumbered as they pass through works for repairs."  Similar instructions were issued at the other works.  It appears from the tables in the RCTS book that the bulk of re-numberings were completed by the end of 1925 but odd ones took until 1926.

 

The LNER directors  met at York on 31 Jan 1923 and at Marylebone on 22 Feb 1923 to view eight and then twelve sample engines in a variety of liveries and lining styles (NER, GNR, NBR and GCR).  All were lettered L&NER, some with and some without full stops after the letters. In the meantime locos appeared from works in pre-group liveries with lettering or coats of arms missing, and from March 1923 with L&NER lettering in shaded letters.  From May 1923 the full stops were omitted from the lettering.  The "&" was dropped between June and September 1923 i.e. BEFORE the letter suffixes were introduced.  However the RCTS state that "In 1923-24 there were many freak liveries, principally due to changes being made to lettering and/or numbering while the engines remained in pre-Group livery."  Also they note that "it was regular practice at Stratford for several years to repaint engines in GER grey livery with LNER 1924 numbers painted in GE style [on the tender]  and without lettering."

 

Does that help?

 

RichardT

[Typeapproval]

Wow! I knew someone would be able to point me in the right direction, but the complete story provided by RichardT is well beyond my expectation. Very many thanks.

 

Sadly I don't have access to the publication Richard suggested (RCTS Green Bible vol.1) but I most certainly will be trying to find a copy. 

 

The question was prompted by seeing two completely different locomotives. The rather elderly 'Mainline J72' and the 'Accurascale J69'. The former is in Apple Green, marked LNER and numbered 581, the forthcoming Accurascale is marked L&NER numbered 359. 

 

I'm not sure the green J72 was a genuine livery, but it has been around some years. 

 

The Great Northern mainline from Kings Cross was literally at the bottom of my back garden when I was a child. By then the locos were all (as far as I can remember) carrying British railways five digit numbers, most had the first emblem or the full wording "British Railways" (in most cases all but obscured by filth) with a livery which I can best describe as Khaki! There were exceptions, I vividly remember standing on the platform at Harringay West as a north bound "Streak" in the blue with black and white stripe livery flew past! 

 

Regards

David

[doilum]

The real question is, how many locomotives actually received the initial lettering?

[RichardT]

23 minutes ago, Typeapproval said:

 

Sadly I don't have access to the publication Richard suggested (RCTS Green Bible vol.1) but I most certainly will be trying to find a copy. 

Hi David

Glad to help. I’m afraid I’m using enthusiast slang - the RCTS “Green Bibles” is common parlance for the multi-volume definitive series “Locomotives of the LNER”, published by the Railway Correspondence & Travel Society (RCTS) from the 1960s to the 1980s in green covers, hence the nickname. Volume 1 is the Preliminary Survey, containing info common to all classes  (liveries, names, numbering etc), then the remaining 10 or 11 vols deal with groups of similar locos.

 

They are long out of print but pop up at secondhand dealers all the time - chasing down a set is great fun and I like having the paper copies. HOWEVER they are now also available for free online browsing (registration required) or (paid for) digital downloads on the RCTS website!  See https://archive.rcts.org.uk/locomotives-of-the-lner/   Browse away!
 

You may also hear people talk about the “Yeadon” volumes surveying LNER locos. The late Willie Yeadon was one of the joint authors of the RCTS series, and subsequently his research notes have been used to produce incredibly detailed (loco by loco) class histories. Again, it’s fun to collect them, but I personally think that the original RCTS volumes contain more than enough detail for any normal person. The Yeadon surveys border on the obsessive - more antiquarian than historian…

 

Best

Richard

[RichardT]

3 minutes ago, doilum said:

The real question is, how many locomotives actually received the initial lettering?

“Some were - look for photographic evidence” is the only reasonable answer.

 

I’m sure spending large amounts of time with the Yeadon volumes plus searching all available archives and photo collections would get someone closer to an actual tally but, given that this specific information is of no real historical importance, I think the time would be better spent on actual modelling. (Or seeing friends, travelling, appreciating great art etc etc. - essentially what I’m saying is life is too short.)

 

RichardT

[phil_sutters]

All the photos I have in Dad's collection of LNER photos that have L&NER are from very early in the post-grouping period. These are a couple of examples. You can probably find more in this album http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/album/494007

[t-b-g]

That sort of period is a very interesting one as far as LNER liveries goes. That F1 illustrated above is almost certainly still in GCR Green, as it has full GCR style lining. It still has the GCR number on the brass plate and on the tank side. Note the caption describes it as 5594, which is the number allocated by the LNER (adding 5000 to GCR numbers).

 

The B6 is similar too. LNER lettering applied to a GCR liveried loco, still carrying the GCR number.

 

Such liveries may have only been carried for very short periods of time in some instances but if you are modelling 1923, you can have all sorts of rarities.

 

Other companies were in similar situations and there are lots of examples of hybrid liveries on the LMS too.

 

The GWR had little immediate change as the locos kept the same numbers and the company name remained although there may have been some odd liveries amongst the smaller absorbed companies.

 

There must have been lots of hybrid liveries on the Southern but it isn't an area that I have studied.

[Wickham Green too]

13 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

... Such liveries may have only been carried for very short periods of time in some instances but if you are modelling 1923, you can have all sorts of rarities. ...

Don't forget that sometimes the photographs were faked in the darkroom and 'new' numbers imposed on an existing image - 'Modern Locomotives' published in 1949 includes photos of 5MT 44767 ( genuine photo but number and "BRITISH RAILWAYS" look to have been added crudely ) and ex GWR 2-6-2T No.66110 ( genuine photo - but imaginary number superimposed ).

[t-b-g]

16 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Don't forget that sometimes the photographs were faked in the darkroom and 'new' numbers imposed on an existing image - 'Modern Locomotives' published in 1949 includes photos of 5MT 44767 ( genuine photo but number and "BRITISH RAILWAYS" look to have been added crudely ) and ex GWR 2-6-2T No.66110 ( genuine photo - but imaginary number superimposed ).

 

Indeed but back in the day, they didn't have "photoshop" and fakes were generally quite crude and easy to spot.

 

I have seen enough models in dodgy/fictional liveries to not worry too much about it nowadays. If somebody wants to model a loco based on a "faked" photo then good luck to them. We often model "might have happened" locations, so why not "might have happened" liveries?

 

I am really just saying that if you want to model lots of locos with various and unusual liveries, then 1923/4 is a good time to portray.

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

... as is my chosen 1948 modelling period. ( Also happens to be good to out-of-place P.O. wagons ..... well weathered.)

 

( The 'photo' of 66110 is actually very well done and convincing ... clearly SOMEONE misunderstood the renumbering policy - which was fixed before this book reached publication - as the frontispiece is a rather nice colour plate ( painting ) of ex GWR King No.66014 from Locomotive Publishing Co ! )

[t-b-g]

11 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

... as is my chosen 1948 modelling period. ( Also happens to be good to out-of-place P.O. wagons ..... well weathered.)

 

( The 'photo' of 66110 is actually very well done and convincing ... clearly SOMEONE misunderstood the renumbering policy - which was fixed before this book reached publication - as the frontispiece is a rather nice colour plate ( painting ) of ex GWR King No.66014 from Locomotive Publishing Co ! )

 

I agree and it surprises me that the RTR locos sold in very early BR livery tend to not sell very well and that there are not very many layouts set in the 1948/9 period. Perhaps it is that the railways were pretty run down at that time , not having recovered from WW2. Many photos from that time depict things to be pretty grimy. Not a problem for the modeller who likes weathering! 

[doilum]

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

“Some were - look for photographic evidence” is the only reasonable answer.

 

I’m sure spending large amounts of time with the Yeadon volumes plus searching all available archives and photo collections would get someone closer to an actual tally but, given that this specific information is of no real historical importance, I think the time would be better spent on actual modelling. (Or seeing friends, travelling, appreciating great art etc etc. - essentially what I’m saying is life is too short.)

 

RichardT

The snag is that the Yeadon photographs span the life of the locomotives. Not surprisingly most are from the 1930s and BR era. Occasionally you get a titbit of information that gives a date to.a specific change.

[kevinlms]

12 hours ago, RichardT said:

 

 

Don't confuse the LNER with the LMS.  The companies grouped into the LNER had a long history of co-operation e.g. over operating the ECML (ECJS, and GNNEJS); and the GNR, GCR and GER had previously tried to merge but had been blocked from doing so by Parliament.

 

 

Fact was that the LNER grouping (at least for the major companies) was much easier, because the GNR, NER and NBR were more or less, end on to each other and so formed a 'natural' service to Scotland, a key destination.

 

The LMS group, had the 2 largest members LNWR (incorporating the L&YR in 1922) and the Midland Railway, had been significant rivals throughout history, so not surprising they not only didn't get along that well, but ran their train services completely differently. Both railways had their own routes to Glasgow, with different partners from Carlisle and shared nothing! So in that regard, the LNER had a much better hand dealt to them.

[Wickham Green too]

 

26 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

... the railways were pretty run down at that time , not having recovered from WW2. 

Debateable whether things were a lot better after the Great War - though 1923 had the benefit of two more years after that conflict.

[RichardT]

5 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

The LMS group, had the 2 largest members LNWR (incorporating the L&YR in 1922) and the Midland Railway, had been significant rivals throughout history,

Yes, in terms of pre-grouping inter-company relations the Midland was historically an ally of the NER, and would have been a lot happier in the LNER group!  One of the many reasons why I dislike the type of railway history that always groups the pre-1923 companies together in terms of what Group they ended up in, as if Grouping was some Whig version of history - an historic inevitability.  It’s like the type of enthusiast who treats railways like supporting a football team, and is astonished to find out that senior railway managers (especially CMEs/Loco Superintendents) actually worked for other “rival” companies before ending up at the one they’re most famously associated with. 😄

 

Richard

[phil-b259]

7 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

 

Debateable whether things were a lot better after the Great War - though 1923 had the benefit of two more years after that conflict.

It’s probably more a case of the type of issues that the railways suffered during the two conflicts.

 

Yes in WW1 the railways suffered from shortages of men and materials plus carried much more traffic than in peacetime - but unlike in WW2 they were no subjected to sustained bombardment from the air so I would say WW2 was the more damaging conflict overall.

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

The LMS group, had the 2 largest members LNWR (incorporating the L&YR in 1922) and the Midland Railway, had been significant rivals throughout history, so not surprising they not only didn't get along that well, but ran their train services completely differently. Both railways had their own routes to Glasgow, with different partners from Carlisle and shared nothing! So in that regard, the LNER had a much better hand dealt to them.

 

This is often said but overlooks the fact that all three companies had been working together very closely on traffic pooling and other cost-cutting measures since 1908 - much as the GC, GE, and GN started doing the following year. So the LMS group was a done deal, in England at least, for a decade and a half before the grouping.

 

11 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Yes, in terms of pre-grouping inter-company relations the Midland was historically an ally of the NER, and would have been a lot happier in the LNER group!  One of the many reasons why I dislike the type of railway history that always groups the pre-1923 companies together in terms of what Group they ended up in, as if Grouping was some Whig version of history - an historic inevitability.  It’s like the type of enthusiast who treats railways like supporting a football team, and is astonished to find out that senior railway managers (especially CMEs/Loco Superintendents) actually worked for other “rival” companies before ending up at the one they’re most famously associated with. 😄

 

 

I would rather say, that the NER belonged in a "Midland" group rather than vice-versa! - but that goes right back to George Hudson's ambitions in the 1840s. If one wants a fantasy "Midland" group, one can look to the attempted amalgamation with the G&SWR in the 1880s and the Forth Bridge Company: a "Greater Midland Railway" would include the G&SWR and NBR in Scotland, the H&B and FR in the north of England, and the LCDR, LSWR, and M&SWJR in the south...

 

Sorry, very off-topic.

 

But note that the first L&NER livery involved putting the locomotive number on the tender, in the Midland fashion (ultimately derived from North American practice). The SR did likewise.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Compound2632

[kevinlms]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But note that the first L&NER livery involved putting the locomotive number on the tender, in the Midland fashion (ultimately derived from North American practice). The SR did likewise.

Whereas, the LNWR in particular, had long ago worked out that tenders could go through workshops, much quicker than locos, so many classes had less tenders available than locos.

This presented a big problem at grouping, partly overcome by having a couple of tenders with number boards on them. But you still sometimes ended up with red engines and black tenders & vice versa.

All solved by putting numbers on locos and letters on the tender - easy!

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

 

Debateable whether things were a lot better after the Great War - though 1923 had the benefit of two more years after that conflict.

 

Which is why my modelling is set in and around 1907!

 

At least in 1923, there was still a big variety of liveries from many different companies, including some in full livery and some in wartime economy colours. By 1948 by far the vast majority of steam locos were black, very often plain black. Nobody can argue that there was a greater choice of liveries in 1948 compared to 1923.

 

In 1923/4. a GCR loco might be in full GCR livery, simplified wartime livery, hybrid livery with GCR colours and GCR number but lettered LNER, or LNER lettering and LNER number still with GCR lining and livery, or full LNER livery with L&NER or LNER.

 

By 1948, nearly all the survivors were black, mostly plain black. The only change was the new lettering/crest and number. A few GCR locos were painted green after WW2 but it was a tiny number.

[Forward!]

14 hours ago, RichardT said:

From May 1923 the full stops were omitted from the lettering.  The "&" was dropped between June and September 1923 i.e. BEFORE the letter suffixes were introduced.  However the RCTS state that "In 1923-24 there were many freak liveries, principally due to changes being made to lettering and/or numbering while the engines remained in pre-Group livery.

 

The rapid change of lettering and numbering led to some interesting variations. For example the "ampersand and full stop" lettering co-existed with number suffixes in a number of cases. Sticking with the GCR, no 438c Worsley Taylor is wearing an early form of LNER green. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Forward!

[Steamport Southport]

9 hours ago, Typeapproval said:

The question was prompted by seeing two completely different locomotives. The rather elderly 'Mainline J72' and the 'Accurascale J69'. The former is in Apple Green, marked LNER and numbered 581, the forthcoming Accurascale is marked L&NER numbered 359. 

 

I'm not sure the green J72 was a genuine livery, but it has been around some years. 

 

 

581? Yes. Seen the photograph. Whether it actually enter service in that condition is debatable, but Mainline really didn't get things like that wrong.

 

Not to be confused with the Post War green station pilots.

 

https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/steam-locomotives-of-a-more-leisurely-era-1898-0-6-0t-class-72-north-eastern-railway/

 

 

 

Jason

[t-b-g]

4 hours ago, Forward! said:

 

The rapid change of lettering and numbering led to some interesting variations. For example the "ampersand and full stop" lettering co-existed with number suffixes in a number of cases. Sticking with the GCR, no 438c Worsley Taylor is wearing an early form of LNER green. 

That is yet another variation. Repainted into LNER Green but still carrying the GCR numberplate and the C suffix, rather than the 5438 number she would have ended up with.

[micklner]

581 in Green dubious at best. I have never seen a photo of 581 in Green it would have to be pre war as well.

 

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9240

 

e.g The current NER livery J72 version in NER Green, the livery was actually based on  a photo of the Loco in Photographic Grey.