USATC & WD Loco Crews During WW2

[Fair Oak Junction]

I was wondering if anyone had info on exactly who crewed the locomotives of the USATC (S100s & S160s) and the War Department (S100s, Austerity 0-6-0s, 2-8-0s, 2-10-0s, etc) while they were operating in the UK. For example, would USATC locos only have US crews, or would some have been operated by UK railway crews during running in? Did WD locos only have British Army crews?

 

Any help is greatly appreciated 👍

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

I was wondering if anyone had info on exactly who crewed the locomotives of the USATC (S100s & S160s) and the War Department (S100s, Austerity 0-6-0s, 2-8-0s, 2-10-0s, etc) while they were operating in the UK. For example, would USATC locos only have US crews, or would some have been operated by UK railway crews during running in? Did WD locos only have British Army crews?

 

Any help is greatly appreciated 👍

 

Railway company staff unless running on military depots. You might be able to train soldiers to drive/fire them, but they wouldn't know things like the routes and signalling.

 

They were just put into the pool of engines. This is at Nuneaton where it would just be treated like an LMS 8F or LNWR G2.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrns3813.htm

 

 

 

Jason

[Fair Oak Junction]

Excellent, that's perfect thank you.

Saves me having to source suitable figures 😄

Edited November 30, 2023 by Fair Oak Junction

[Banger Blue]

Harold Gasson, in his book “Firing Days”, recalls spending a week on loan from his home shed at Didcot, assisting the US Army with their Locomotives at the huge supply depot at Newbury Racecourse. His driver for that week was an American railwayman.

[Benjamin Brady]

I am also sure there is a LNER book where they manage to derail an S160. I am sure it is based around Darlington, he starts out at Selby shed maybe, NER enginemen or something. 

[Fair Oak Junction]

From what I know the S160 wheels were narrower than wheels on UK locos, and especially when they were running tender first they were prone to coming off on pointwork 😄

[TheQ]

Certainly the railway companies ran them with their staff on their lines, there was a requirement to have a driver who knew the road on any line. As it was a company fireman as well so that's why the S160s had problems with the water level gauge causing boiler explosions, due to the UK men's unfamiliarity with the US system.

 

[Mol_PMB]

The S100 locos which operated on the Manchester Ship Canal Railway in 1943-44 were worked by USATC crews. The book on MSC Railways was written by the late Don Thorpe who was himself an MSC engineman for many years, so I’m sure he would have his facts right on this.

The USATC weren’t regular soldiers, they would have been trained to operate the locos they came with.
On the MSC they may have initially been route-conducted or perhaps an MSC shunter worked with the American crews. Of course the MSC was primarily a freight railway with low speeds, though it had some fairly long runs and heavy traffic especially in wartime. 

[LMS2968]

Those engines loaned to the Big Four railways were worked as common user by there own men, same as all other types of engine. The first thing a crew had to do on reaching an S160 footplate for the first time was to figure out what the controls did as these were often very different to usual British custom. It helped if they were relieving another crew who had already been through this process and could drop a few hints.

[JeremyC]

Three S160s suffered firebox crown failures through low water level while being worked in the UK by British Crews. The cause was attributed to the crews being unused to the style of water gauge valves fitted. The gauges had screw valves rather than cocks and if the steam valve wasn't fully open (and unfortunately the extended spindles of these valves tended to jam giving the false impression they were open) then the glass would show a false high level. The locos were only fitted with a single glass so this false level wasn't readily noticed. There were test cocks, but it seems Britsh Crews weren't used to them and so tended not to use them.

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by JeremyC

[LMS2968]

Many British engines used test cocks and a single gauge glass, the GWR especially, but they aren't easy to read, especially at night. Water tends to flash into steam at atmospheric pressure so making the distinction can be difficult.

[Bernard Lamb]

20 hours ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

I was wondering if anyone had info on exactly who crewed the locomotives of the USATC (S100s & S160s) and the War Department (S100s, Austerity 0-6-0s, 2-8-0s, 2-10-0s, etc) while they were operating in the UK. For example, would USATC locos only have US crews, or would some have been operated by UK railway crews during running in? Did WD locos only have British Army crews?

 

Any help is greatly appreciated 👍

It gets complicated. Fairly straight-forward while in the UK, as others have posted. I do however wonder if there were enough UK drivers to take all the locomotives to the departure ports after D day.

Once on the mainland things were different. EnglishSappers drove German locomotives and a German drove a Dean Goods, if you want to go to extremes.

I have a photograph of an English WD locomotive taken on December 31st 1944nat Oisterwijk with a Canadian crew. L/Cpl TG Grover and Sgmn W Warshick. 

There were Austerities that were WD locomotives but were on loan to the NS in the 1945-1947 period. I presume that these machines were worked by Dutch crews in this period.

Bernard

Edited December 1, 2023 by Bernard Lamb
added year 1944

[Invicta]

On 30/11/2023 at 19:03, Steamport Southport said:

 

Railway company staff unless running on military depots. You might be able to train soldiers to drive/fire them, but they wouldn't know things like the routes and signalling.

 

They were just put into the pool of engines. This is at Nuneaton where it would just be treated like an LMS 8F or LNWR G2.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrns3813.htm

 

 

 

Jason

 

Some comments on LMS drivers working S160s from J.M. Dunn, Nuneaton shedmaster  (the chap in the hat in that picture). Interesting how even in 1943 he refers to "LNWR drivers"!

 

"It is remarkable how most L.N.W.R. drivers will tackle any strange engine that comes along and a very good example of this occurred on 18th May 1943 when one of the new American 2-8-0 engines arrived at Nuneaton Station on its way to Woodford and Hinton on the G.C.R. I went to have a look at it and accompanied the set of Nuneaton men who were going to re-man it for the next stage of its journey. As soon as we reached the engine the signal came "off", the Crewe men said "There you are. That's the regulator and that's the brake" and got off! The Nuneaton men started away as unconcerned as could be and slowed down opposite the shed for me to get off after which they went off in fine style. Admittedly they had a mechanical inspector riding with them on this occasion and he would have been able to show them a few things about the footplate fittings which differed a good deal from the British fashion, but that did not alter the fact that they had to find out how to work the engine as they went along. This versatility on the part of enginemen is by no means always the rule as, for example, few Holyhead men are "at home" on any engine smaller than a "Royal Scot".

 

There are several nice shots of 2153 during it's visit to Nuneaton- Another one. Note the LMS shedcode plate (6B- Mold Junction) on the smokebox

 

[Fair Oak Junction]

That is a wonderful little snippet, thank you!

And yes it's always funny to see the Midland Region factionalism never went away. That rivalry was just too strong 😄

[Tony Cane]

20 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I do however wonder if there were enough UK drivers to take all the locomotives to the departure ports after D day.

These were moved in groups of 5 or 6 locomotives, one in steam and the others being towed.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

22 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I presume that these machines were worked by Dutch crews in this period.

Certainly were, one of them my late Pa doing his national service in the army, assigned to what was considered the very cushy job of fireman on freight locos, once his basic army training was completed. There were usually two firemen for the 'allied import' freight locos, one hopefully an experienced railway trained man, the other to do the donkey work, as with the relatively poor coal available, there was a lot of coal to be shifted!

 

(My Pa loved it as he hadn't travelled much in The Netherlands, only arriving from Java aged 11 relatively briefly before war broke out , and then in 'durance vile'... )

[The Stationmaster]

On 30/11/2023 at 18:54, Fair Oak Junction said:

I was wondering if anyone had info on exactly who crewed the locomotives of the USATC (S100s & S160s) and the War Department (S100s, Austerity 0-6-0s, 2-8-0s, 2-10-0s, etc) while they were operating in the UK. For example, would USATC locos only have US crews, or would some have been operated by UK railway crews during running in? Did WD locos only have British Army crews?

 

Any help is greatly appreciated 👍

On the British  mainline railways the various military owned engines loaned to the railway companies were driven by ordinary railway company Drivers and fired by nprmal railway company Firemen.

 

One exception to thos was the WD engines working with rail mounted guns and they were manned by WD crews although from what I know they were already foorplatemen when they joined the army (some might well have been in TA Railway Companies but I'm not certain.  A Driver at one of my past depots had served in the Army in WWIi as the Fireman on a Dean Goods working with a rail mounted gun and the crew and the engine remained with the gun for at least part of its operational life.  They had collected the gun (I would think probably from Devonport but definitely somewhere in Devon) and they then worked it throughout to its operational base in Kent.  He said nothing about Conductor Drivers but presumably they had them where his Driver didn't already know the road?

 

I knew a number of Western men who'd fired on S160s during the war and their vtews of the engines were rather mixed but every single one of them hated and distrusted the type of gauge glass the engines were fitted with.

 

It didn't a[p[;y in Britain but where overseas the British army was operating a railway it used its own crews - as at the likes of Longmoor and the various depots with internal rail networks.  In addition British army crews n manned WD operated engines working in Europe immediately after various countries were liberated.  Don't forget that quite a number of railwaymen had been members of the TA prior to WWII includiing many in the ROD and they were mobilised as part of it in 1939.