Silver A4’s & non jubilee stock

[RateTheFreight]

Evening all,

 

Apologies if this has been covered before.

 

How common would it have been to have seen one of the silver liveried A4’s hauling non silver jubilee stock? I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a black & white pic of Silver Link hauling what looks like standard Gresley teaks on what was captioned the silver jubilee service. 
 

Whilst appreciating their designated use as top link express passenger locos would you have ever likely have seen a silver liveried one hauling a freight or postal? 
 

Thanks in advance.

 

G

[Bucoops]

There's a crop of a quite well known photo on this page, said to be from 1937 which shows one of the Silver A4s on regular stock:

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/133-teak-coaches

 

[Compound2632]

I suppose the idea was that, with five engines, there would be a sufficient pool to ensure that there was always one available to work the Silver Jubilee. But it would be madness to have four top link express passenger engines standing idle (even if one allows for one being under overhaul at any given time) so they must have taken their turn on other express passenger duties. But which?  

[Steamport Southport]

Only four silver A4s. It was the LMS that had five blue Coronations (who eventually gave up on trying to keep them with the specific train).

 

 

They were only silver for a relatively short period. Soon repainted Garter Blue from 1937.

 

Don't forget the "Empire/Commonwealth" named A4s were meant for the Coronation and the "Golden" named ones for the West Riding Limited. Would have been near impossible keeping them on those duties.

 

 

Jason

Edited December 12, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Only four silver A4s.

 

That's the hard up LNER for you. Small classes of specialised locomotives generally came in fives - two up, two down, one spare. This is especially noticeable with GNR(I) 4-4-0 classes.  

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's the hard up LNER for you. Small classes of specialised locomotives generally came in fives - two up, two down, one spare. This is especially noticeable with GNR(I) 4-4-0 classes.  

Efficiency, there was 30 odd other A4’s they could always use a blue one.

 

its like the Gatwick or Heathrow express today with 387’s.

Edited December 13, 2023 by adb968008

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Efficiency, there was 30 odd other A4’s they could always use a blue one.

 

I don't know about the OP but I was thinking about the situation in 1936 when there were only the four silver A4s.

[Cruachan]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Efficiency, there was 30 odd other A4’s they could always use a blue one.

For the first 15 months of the Silver Jubilee's running, there were only the original four to choose from, and it'd be another 19 months after that before the full class of 35 locos would be available.

[Bucoops]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's the hard up LNER for you. Small classes of specialised locomotives generally came in fives - two up, two down, one spare. This is especially noticeable with GNR(I) 4-4-0 classes.  

 

4 locos for 1 train though. When the Coronation came along that had one each way (plus the West Riding, and a spare set) but the Silver Jubilee was one set. They used the spare Coronation/West Riding set when the Silver Jubilee was out of action.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Bucoops
hit enter too early

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

4 locos for 1 train though. 

 

Four locos available for that train, ensuring there was always one available, but with the other three doing other work - but what work, that is the question?

 

I assume the same loco worked the Silver Jubilee out and back and that it wasn't a case of there always being one at Newcastle overnight? 

[Cruachan]

31 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Four locos available for that train, ensuring there was always one available, but with the other three doing other work - but what work, that is the question?

 

I assume the same loco worked the Silver Jubilee out and back and that it wasn't a case of there always being one at Newcastle overnight? 

The Kings Cross A4 that worked the 5:30pm Kings Cross - Newcastle 'Silver Jubilee' would spend the night at Gateshead and be expected to work back to London on the following morning's 10am southbound working. 2511 'Silver King' was the only one of the quartet permanently shedded at Gateshead, to stand pilot in case one of the three Kings Cross engines was unable to work the morning southbound journey. Due to the high reliability of the other three it rarely had the opportunity to reach Kings Cross, and had it's own 408 mile regular diagram, from Newcastle to Edinburgh, Edinburgh to York and then back to Newcastle.

 

The three Kings Cross allocated locos were expected to work the train in turn (although for the first fortnight, 'Silver Link' was the only streamlined loco available and worked the train faultlessly each day), with the loco that worked the train back to Newcastle at 5:30pm on Friday night returning to Kings Cross with the Up “Flying Scotsman” on Saturday.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Cruachan

[Compound2632]

Thanks, @Cruachan, that's the answer we've been looking for. The only remaining questions I can think of are:

1. In that first fortnight, presumably Silver Link did the round trip each day?
2. With one Kings Cross engine working the up train in the morning and another working it down in the evening, that's two engines each with a 600 mile diagram in each 24 hour period; did the third engine have a regular diagram, or did each of the three work two nights and have a night off, or was the third engine "spare"?
3. One Kings Cross engine must have worked down to Newcastle on Sunday?
4. Presumably Kings Cross crews lodged at Gateshead? 

[Cruachan]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Thanks, @Cruachan, that's the answer we've been looking for. The only remaining questions I can think of are:

1. In that first fortnight, presumably Silver Link did the round trip each day?
2. With one Kings Cross engine working the up train in the morning and another working it down in the evening, that's two engines each with a 600 mile diagram in each 24 hour period; did the third engine have a regular diagram, or did each of the three work two nights and have a night off, or was the third engine "spare"?
3. One Kings Cross engine must have worked down to Newcastle on Sunday?
4. Presumably Kings Cross crews lodged at Gateshead? 

1. That's correct, according to the written sources I have available.
2. From what I've read, a typical planned rotation for the three Kings Cross engines would be:

2509

Monday 5:30pm Down/Tuesday 10am Up

2510

Tuesday 5:30pm Down/Wednesday 10am Up

2512 

Wednesday 5:30pm Down/Thursday 10am Up

(Sequence then repeats)

 

So as far as I know, one of the three locos would be "spare" on any given weekday. This would subsequently provide some allowance when one loco was on an exam or in works.

 

3. That's a good point - I haven't personally seen a description of how the loco for the Monday morning Up working was sourced. I'm aware that there are some extremely knowledgeable LNER aficionados on this site, so hopefully someone will be able to provide more information. 

4. The evening Down working didn't arrive into Newcastle until 9:30pm, so it seems likely that they would have lodged, but again I'm not sure of the details.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Cruachan

[RateTheFreight]

Fascinating info chaps.

 

I’ve had a look through some of my books including Tuffrey’s and have found a number of clear b&w pics showing a silver A4 with what are clearly Gresley teaks which satisfies me enough. I actually think the silver and teak combination looks good too. 
 

Part of the reason for the original question, aside from general curiosity, was that I’ve recently purchased an ACE coarse scale Silver Link. If I was going to get some coaches for it to haul then, given the cost, a set of Gresley teaks would have more universal use with other stock rather than the specific silver jubilee set hence asking. As for freight, we’ll stick that in Rule 1 territory although I think I’m right that in later life the A4’s would have been seen on freights esp to and around Scotland.

 

G 
 

 

[Cruachan]

17 minutes ago, RateTheFreight said:

Part of the reason for the original question, aside from general curiosity, was that I’ve recently purchased an ACE coarse scale Silver Link. If I was going to get some coaches for it to haul then, given the cost, a set of Gresley teaks would have more universal use with other stock rather than the specific silver jubilee set hence asking. As for freight, we’ll stick that in Rule 1 territory although I think I’m right that in later life the A4’s would have been seen on freights esp to and around Scotland.

I wondered whether you'd perhaps attended the Manchester model railway show last weekend: The sight of silver A4s on teak stock on the excellent 2mm finescale 1930s York layout had me reaching for the reference material to jog my memory once I was back at home.

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, Cruachan said:

For the first 15 months of the Silver Jubilee's running, there were only the original four to choose from, and it'd be another 19 months after that before the full class of 35 locos would be available.

 

That's when they started painting them blue anyway. November 1937 Silver Fox lost it's silver livery and the others by August 1938. So matching locos and trains was a short lived thing.

 

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=600104004&type=S&loco=2512

 

 

I have a similar problem with my Coronation Scot. Full set but no blue locos to match, only red ones. So I use those until I eventually get around to getting a blue one (6222 is due soon). I'm afraid 1950s BR Blue Duchesses just don't look right on it!

 

 

Jason